57XX years ago...

Papias

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Bushinoki wrote:

Many mainline denominations require seminary before someone can serve as a pastor. Almost all denominations in the US have their own Bible Colleges, where someone can pursue theological studies. There are numerous denominational leaders and pastors who have doctorates of some form. Only a very small sliver of preachers out there actually have no training or education.

Right. In fact, most big, mainline, Christian colleges and seminaries not only educate, but specifically teach evolution and common descent (UCA). In the same way, most clergy in the big mainline denominations (except the Baptists) support evolution (specifically UCA - universal common ancestry). You can see the sites that gluadys listed for additional information. Looking at the scientists, remember that literally millions of them are Christians, supporting evolution as an obvious and established fact.

For the creationists, if you are Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopal, Catholic, etc, (and many others) please realize that your church is not opposed to evolution, and that the battle here has long been over. For the wider view, evolution (and UCA) has been established as a fact since around 1930, and work since then has confirmed it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Alvis, also recognize that this means that most of the support for evolution and UCA in the US comes from Christians, and that evolution has been an idea developed by Christians and proven by Christians, including today.

Evolution, like heliocentrism, was opposed by all of Christianity at one time, but we are thankfully past much of that today.

Papias
 
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Alvis

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Bushinoki wrote:



Right. In fact, most big, mainline, Christian colleges and seminaries not only educate, but specifically teach evolution and common descent (UCA). In the same way, most clergy in the big mainline denominations (except the Baptists) support evolution (specifically UCA - universal common ancestry). You can see the sites that gluadys listed for additional information. Looking at the scientists, remember that literally millions of them are Christians, supporting evolution as an obvious and established fact.

For the creationists, if you are Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopal, Catholic, etc, (and many others) please realize that your church is not opposed to evolution, and that the battle here has long been over. For the wider view, evolution (and UCA) has been established as a fact since around 1930, and work since then has confirmed it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Alvis, also recognize that this means that most of the support for evolution and UCA in the US comes from Christians, and that evolution has been an idea developed by Christians and proven by Christians, including today.

Evolution, like heliocentrism, was opposed by all of Christianity at one time, but we are thankfully past much of that today.

Papias

I'd like to know who these "literally millions" of christian scientists exist?

I do see it as heliocentrism or flat earthism. This is why I cannot understand how people even believe this anymore.

I might as well start preaching about unicorns on the moon. Or better yet, life existing on a distant planet called Cheesepuff. Prove me wrong. You can't.
 
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Alvis

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Alvis wrote:





Whoa there. "according to you guys"? Remember that an old earth was established by geologists in the 1830's who were Christians, and even today, millions of modern geologists are Christians. Please be clear that by "you guys" you mean "old earth deniers", not all Christians.

Thanks-

Papias

I meant you people here, on this forum. I am technically a "christian" too, so I meant you guys here, not christians in general.

Old earth is still a bit silly, since it denies animals evolved in form, which we know they did.
 
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Papias

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Alvis wrote:

I meant you people here, on this forum. I am technically a "christian" too, so I meant you guys here, not christians in general.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, Welcome to the forum!

Here on this forum, there are plenty of both - reality realizing Christians as well as evolution deniers. I've notice that the reality realizing Christians will sometimes say there are a lot of evolution deniers, while the evolution deniers will often complain about the preponderance of reality realizing Christians. I guess it just means we are both present.





Old earth is still a bit silly, since it denies animals evolved in form, which we know they did.


By "old earth deniers" I just meant young earth creationists. However, I agree that Old earth creationism (OEC) is unsupported by evidence (though better than YEC).

I'd like to know who these "literally millions" of christian scientists exist?

Yes, though we both may wish they were more vocal. With tens of millions of scientists, a (slight) majority believing in God means that at least millions are Christian:

What do scientists think about religion? - Los Angeles Times

I do see it as heliocentrism or flat earthism. This is why I cannot understand how people even believe this anymore.

Well, to cut them some slack, remember that they have been told this (YEC) from an early age, and that whole ministries are devoted to YEC (like AIG). Don't blame them, all of us could easily be there with a different history.

Papias
 
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bushinoki

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Anyone can be ordained, I've seen it.

An unaccredited degree in theology, which is not a science, is not the same as having a Ph.D in biology or anthropology. I hope you would know that.

It's fine if they're trained to be pastors, whatever. What I do mind is, people with no scientific background spewing false information and calling it truth. That's a problem because it's dishonest or just plain ignorant.

Theology is not a science nor does it make one qualified to give lectures on evolution or the origins of life. If you don't understand that, I don't know what else to say. How else can I put it?

Alvis, that there are websites out there which sell worthless certificates, I agree. And woe unto those that would use such a "degree" to pervert the Word of God.

However, your continual scorn for those called by God to preach his Gospel means a continual rebuke.

You have sinned in the eyes of the Father. Your scorn for preachers of the Word is baseless. Your libel is unworthy of one called by Christ. This apparent arrogance is unworthy of one who should be guided by the Holy Spirit. I'm calling upon you to repent of the great evil you are committing, and ask God for forgiveness.
 
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miamited

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So why is the earth said to be billions of years old then?

According to you guys, God is a deceiver, making it look old, but it's really not. Is God a liar now?

Hi alvis,

Why would the only conclusion you can come up with be that God is a liar because man cannot understand how He created the earth. Man says the earth is old based on sedimentary data. Why is it not possible that God created the earth with many of the sediment layers as a part of how the earth was created? Man, seeing all these sedimentary layers, however, determines that it couldn't have been made that way but must necessarily have 'evolved' that structure over the many ages of time.

Man says that the earth and the universe must be old because we can see stars today that are millions of light years away. Why is it not possible that when God created all of the stars of the universe that He didn't also cause their light to be immediately visible across the universe? As I understand the moment that God created all the stars of the heavens, the light from each one was also made, as a part of His creative work, to be visible across the expanse of the universe. I mean, He does say that they were to be signs for us of times and seasons. How would that be if it would be millions of years until we could see them?

You see, my friend, God is the God of miracles. He can stop the earth in its tracks. He apparently did something like that twice in the history of the earth that the Scriptures tell us. Man says that's impossible. Why? If God wants the earth to stop or turn back He is God and He can do that. Consider that for the knowledge of man it is impossible that Mary could have been pregnant. Yet, if you are a believer, you know that she was. She had never had sperm introduced into her womb which is the only way, certainly in those days, that a woman could become pregnant, yet there she was...pregnant. Consider that in one night in an entire nation of Egypt every first born of every family and cattle died in one night. Absolutely impossible! Yet it happened. God caused the entire earth to be flooded and by all accounts the knowledge of man says that that is impossible. However, the Scriptures clearly describe that it was and that the result was that all living creatures upon the land died. Every man woman and child living in that day, except for Noah and his immediate family, died. Impossible! Says man's knowledge.

So, when you look at the evidences of the earth and say that it must be old based on such evidences, if the Scriptures are true, then it is not God that is a liar, but man. And he doesn't mean to be. He really thinks he knows the truth because of his great knowledge. So, it isn't that he thinks to himself that he is lying, but to teach and speak something that isn't true is still a lie. So, while man believes himself to have great knowledge of the natural things, the truth is that he has no knowledge of the power, glory and greatness and purpose of God. He doesn't understand, nor can he comprehend, what it really means for God to work a miracle. But that is the very definition of a miracle. Something that happens that is unexplainable by natural processes.

Man, has learned to redefine 'miracle'. He now defines it as something that has a high degree of improbability. Here's a story:

A soldier during the civil war was shot through the scrotum by a musketball from an enemy firearm. The musketball passed through his scrotum easily and continued on downrange and finally lodging itself in the womb of a woman in a house just beyond his position. The woman became pregnant. Is that a miracle?

No, not at all. When the ball passed through the man's scrotum it picked up a few microscopic sperm and then when it milliseconds later lodged itself in the woman's womb at least one of the sperm found its way to a fertile egg within the woman's womb. Now, as any first year biology book will attest, if a living sperm meets a living egg there is actually a very high degree of probability that the woman carrying that egg will become pregnant. Certainly the way in which the woman received the sperm is highly irregular, but the final outcome was nearly given.

When God performs a miracle it is not some event that is highly improbable, but rather it is an event that is impossible except for the power and glory and wisdom of God.

I believe that God gave a very clear explanation of how He created this realm. He says that He merely spoke and things were created. He says that He created this realm in six days and defines each day as consisting of a morning and an evening. He then gives an account of the genealogies that proceeded from the first created man. All of this evidence confirms six days about 6,000 years ago. However, man cannot accept that because it would have to be a miracle and science doesn't have answers for miracles. Science cannot tell you how Mary became pregnant. Science cannot tell you how the shadow of the sun backed up 10 steps. Science cannot tell you how the sun could have possibly stood still in the midday sky over Israel. Science cannot tell you how a man, dead, came back to life. Ask any scientist to prove to you, or explain to you, how Lazarus, laying dead in a tomb for three days, got up and walked out of that tomb? Get back to me when you have a satisfactory answer for that one question. Ask them to explain to you how it was that Jesus, also three days dead in a tomb, got up and lived?

Now, we, as believers, accept these two miracles without question, yet nearly every other miracle described in the Scriptures, certainly the old covenant, are denied and explained, and because these explanations appeal to our 'knowledge' of the natural, we want to accept them over what God has said. My question to a believer is, Why?

Why is that we can accept that a woman 2,000 years ago became pregnant without the aid of human sperm? Why is that we can accept that Lazarus got right up out of his tomb after being dead for three days? Why is that we can accept that Jesus also walked out of his tomb after three days? Yet, we cannot accept that God created this realm just by speaking it fairly instantaneously into existence. Why can we not accept that according to the genealogies that this event happened about 6,000 years ago and that it was just as much a miracle of God's handiwork as the account of Mary, Lazarus and Jesus?

Me, I understand that this realm was created by God. It was created by God who had a purpose in creating it all and that purpose will be achieved when time on this earth has reached the last two chapters of the book of the Revelation. God is going to take what He created and separate the wicked from the righteous and there will then forever be a fixed chasm between the two and the righteous will live eternally with God. That was His purpose on day one of His creating this realm. It is all the work and miraculous handiwork of God, but man has another reasonably plausible explanation and in the end that will turn out to be the '666' that the Scriptures speak of. Did you or I or any one of us individually believe and trust God over '666'? '666' being the 'truth' of man. So, as I understand what God is doing in this realm, He is waiting patiently to see who of us will place our faith in His truth or man's 'truth'.

The question for you is which side of that fence will you be on when the time comes to give an account before God.

Yes, I also fully understand that there are plenty of those who call themselves 'christians' that will tell you that I'm wrong. But, consider there are also plenty of those same people who will tell you that God counts infant baptism and plenty of those same people who will tell you that God will save this one or that one based on their own knowledge. So, I would caution you that while it sure makes one feel accepted to be on the side of the knowledge of man, it may not be what God is asking of His children.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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juvenissun

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So why is the earth said to be billions of years old then?

According to you guys, God is a deceiver, making it look old, but it's really not. Is God a liar now?

Scientists said the earth is billions of years old because that is the number provided to them by machine when they stick some earth material into the machine.

The unit of the number is in year. But nobody really know what does the word "year" mean. It is in the same nature as the word "day" in Genesis 1.

God gives us many things we do not understand. But God does not lie.
 
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gluadys

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Hi alvis,


Why is that we can accept that a woman 2,000 years ago became pregnant without the aid of human sperm? Why is that we can accept that Lazarus got right up out of his tomb after being dead for three days? Why is that we can accept that Jesus also walked out of his tomb after three days? Yet, we cannot accept that God created this realm just by speaking it fairly instantaneously into existence.

Because we have no evidence that the virgin birth , Lazarus' resurrection and Jesus' resurrection never happened. Things like this don't ordinarily happen, and can't happen unless God wills them, but there is nothing that indicates they can't happen nor that they didn't happen.

On the age of the earth, however, we have plenty of evidence that it must be very old. No doubt, if he wished to, God could have made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them instantaneously. Nothing says it couldn't be that way. But there is plenty of evidence that it was not done that way.

The question I would pose to you is this: why can you not accept the universe as God's work no matter how he decided to make it and no matter how long it took? Why can you not accept the evidence of what he did rather than appealing to what he could have done, but didn't?
 
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miamited

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Because we have no evidence that the virgin birth , Lazarus' resurrection and Jesus' resurrection never happened. Things like this don't ordinarily happen, and can't happen unless God wills them, but there is nothing that indicates they can't happen nor that they didn't happen.

On the age of the earth, however, we have plenty of evidence that it must be very old. No doubt, if he wished to, God could have made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them instantaneously. Nothing says it couldn't be that way. But there is plenty of evidence that it was not done that way.

The question I would pose to you is this: why can you not accept the universe as God's work no matter how he decided to make it and no matter how long it took? Why can you not accept the evidence of what he did rather than appealing to what he could have done, but didn't? ?

Hi glaudys,

You responded: Things like this don't ordinarily happen, and can't happen unless God wills them, but there is nothing that indicates they can't happen nor that they didn't happen.

Right, and just when exactly was the last time you saw a universe created? There is also nothing that indicates that the creation can't happen or didn't happen just the way God has explained, but...

Men have taken the evidences of what makes up this earth and universe and from what they believe to be factual evidences decided that the simple understanding of God's account of creation can't possibly be the way that God did do it.

Just as you say that there is nothing that would indicate that Mary could not have been pregnant under the circumstances given in the Scriptures, there is also no evidence that at the moment God spoke all the stars into existence that the light of each one wasn't already 'stretched', I suppose that's as good a term as any, across all of the universe. Now today, as we study light we see that it travels at a given speed, but that doesn't mean that it has, especially at the moment of creation, always maintained that property. Just offer one simple explanation of how the sun could stand still in the noon day sky for nearly an entire day and I'll be happy to reconsider your argument.

You see, friend, God can do things that we cannot even think to imagine. He can make the earth to stand still and yet still preserve all life on the earth to continue just as it did before He stopped it. He can do that! Now, whether He did it by stopping the earth in its rotation or by causing the sun to move, for a time, that would keep it in its relative position to the earth, I don't know. Haven't a clue. But just because I can't possibly explain how He does things doesn't for a moment mean that I then decide that He didn't do it.

This is the scientific argument. Because we cannot for the life of us, based on all the natural scientifically proven laws of nature, understand how God could have just spoken, in 6 days about 6,000 years ago, this universe into existence with all the light spread across the entire universe, we then deny that He did it! I don't hold God to such a small position and limit of power.

I believe in a God who can speak everything into perfect existence just the way He wants it to be, outside of all the workings of what we understand as the natural laws. He can cause water, water!!! to stand up straight and tall without any means of support for a height of several dozen feet. He can keep that water standing just as He wants it to stand for as long as He wants it to stand and then let it go and retake it's natural place where it then resumes following the natural laws of water. However, during the time that God is working with that water, all bets on its having to keep to some natural laws that we understand are off.

Similarly with light! If God wants all the light of every star in His new creation to be visible millions and millions of light years away at the very moment that He creates them to exist, He can do it! And for the next million years man will not be able to explain or understand how He did it. Just as today, man cannot offer any scientifically proven hypothesis that would explain how a wall of water could just stand several dozen feet high straight up on both the left and the right of the people of Israel as they traveled to safety. But, unlike many, I am not one to say to myself, "Well, if the natural laws that we know preclude such a thing from happening, then it just didn't happen."

Then you asked of me: why can you not accept the universe as God's work no matter how he decided to make it and no matter how long it took? Why can you not accept the evidence of what he did rather than appealing to what he could have done, but didn't?

Friend, because it isn't the way God has told me that He did it. You are making your own assumption when you ask: rather than appealing to what he could have done, but didn't?

You are assuming that He didn't. I, on the other hand, am confident that He did. God has spoken clearly through His Scriptures that He created this realm in 6 days and each day consisted of a morning and an evening. He even caused that account to be repeated twice in the Scriptures several thousand years apart. Those who refuse to believe this account are merely doing so based on their understanding that everything must now and have always followed the natural laws that we see working in the creation today. I don't. I believe that Mary became pregnant, a completely unexplainable event within our known laws of nature, because God did it! I believe that Lazarus walked out of that tomb after being solid dead for three days because God did it! I believe the universe was made fully formed and perfect pretty much exactly as we see it today with all the heavenly bodies and the distant light visible in the moment that He made it, because God did it! Friend, anything that we can explain, anything!, by the natural processes of the natural laws is not a miracle. It is simply what would inexorably happen given the way that those laws work. When God does something it is a miracle to us! It is completely and absolutely unexplainable by the natural laws that we know to exist!

And finally, this is exactly what Paul was warning the believers of. See to it, he wrote, that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. The basic principles of this world are what we today call the natural laws. They are all, every one, based on the basic principles of this world.

I know that God has given me a complete and trustworthy account of how He created this realm and I fully believe that He did it just as He said He did. Now, you're free to follow whatever philosophy suits you, but that's the one that suits me.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Alvis

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They did not report on what they saw. Evolution has never been observed.

kermit

Neither did the bible writers,and at least evolution is supported by evidence. So you believe in a story that is contrary to science, contrary to reality and that was also never observed by anyone. Even if Moses wrote Genesis, which for the sake of this discussion, we say he did, then he never observed anything in either creation tale. And yes, there are TWO separate creation stories. Which one is right? They both can't be.

And yes, germ and viral evolution has been observed in labs.
 
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gluadys

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Hi glaudys,

You responded: Things like this don't ordinarily happen, and can't happen unless God wills them, but there is nothing that indicates they can't happen nor that they didn't happen.

Right, and just when exactly was the last time you saw a universe created?

I just looked out my window. There appears to be a universe there. I expect it was created.



Just as you say that there is nothing that would indicate that Mary could not have been pregnant under the circumstances given in the Scriptures, there is also no evidence that at the moment God spoke all the stars into existence that the light of each one wasn't already 'stretched', I suppose that's as good a term as any, across all of the universe.

There is a large difference here though.
Concerning Mary, we have a clear record that the angel Gabriel visited her and spoke to her, revealing what was to happen.

We don't have any record of what happened when God spoke creation into existence. As you know from Genesis, it says only "and he made the stars also". It says nothing at all about stretching any light.

So in the first case, we are told of a miracle.

In the second we are not. You are just making one up to fit your logic.
That's called an "ad hoc hypothesis".


It's easy to make up ad hoc hypotheses. But that doesn't mean they have any reality outside your imagination. What we want to know is not what your imagination conjures up about what might have been, but what really was.

In this case, Scripture doesn't give us that info.


Now today, as we study light we see that it travels at a given speed, but that doesn't mean that it has, especially at the moment of creation, always maintained that property. Just offer one simple explanation of how the sun could stand still in the noon day sky for nearly an entire day and I'll be happy to reconsider your argument.


Well, first you have to agree that the sun orbits the earth, not vice versa.

The sun can't stop in the noonday sky at all, unless it is moving through the sky around the earth.

You see, friend, God can do things that we cannot even think to imagine. He can make the earth to stand still and yet still preserve all life on the earth to continue just as it did before He stopped it.


You are making things up again. You should listen to Martin Luther. He understood that Joshua told the sun to stop, not the earth.




Friend, because it isn't the way God has told me that He did it.

Well, there is no arguing about personal special revelation. However, we are told to test the spirits, and I would be suspicious that a spirit who told me to shut my eyes to the evidence presented by God's world is really divine.


You are assuming that He didn't.

No, not assuming. Observing and concluding.





When God does something it is a miracle to us! It is completely and absolutely unexplainable by the natural laws that we know to exist!

When God works miracles it is for a purpose, and we know the miracle and we know the purpose. I cannot hold to miracles invented in human imagination solely for the purpose of upholding a belief about scripture that is likely incorrect. When God has not presented the miracle to us with its purpose (as with the healings Jesus performed, the parting of the Red/Reed Sea, Elijah's calling fire from heaven, Jesus' incarnation and resurrection) I cannot see any basis for inventing one just to satisfy my theology. Theology and hermeneutics are human activities, not God's activities and God has no duty to perform the miracles we need to ascribe to him so that we can tell ourselves we haven't made a mistake.
 
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miamited

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God is intentionally deceptive, since he made the world to look billions of years old just to screw with some scientists. I guess he put the oil in the ground for us to use as fuel for our vehicles too.

Hi alvis,

The Scriptures declare that everything that has been created was created by Him.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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juvenissun

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They did not report on what they saw. Evolution has never been observed.

kermit

There ARE many observations of sequential change. But in order to prove the idea of evolution, they are way way way not enough. It goes the wrong way. Examples can not prove principle, no matter how many are there.

I am interested to learn a type evidence of evolution which does not involve any kind sequential change. May be this wish is not a possibility.
 
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Alvis

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There ARE many observations of sequential change. But in order to prove the idea of evolution, they are way way way not enough. It goes the wrong way. Examples can not prove principle, no matter how many are there.

I am interested to learn a type evidence of evolution which does not involve any kind sequential change. May be this wish is not a possibility.

Why do humans have a tailbone and a dormant gene to produce tails? Why do birds have a gene that could produce teeth? Why have dinosaur fossils, which are millions of years old, been found with traces of feathers in them?
 
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frogman2x

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I'm just curious how the highly educated and intelligent are completely wrong, while the uneducated pastor in backwoods Alabama (for example) who never graduated high school, has got everything right? Makes sense to me, and I can't imagine why everyone isn't a christian based off of that, but I still have to ask.

Why do you assume that everyone who rejects evolution has the same intelligence as an uneducated, backwoods pastor? It seems you feel you need to embelish your comments to try and make all who reject evolution as being uneducated.

There are many more educated than you are who also reject evolution and it is rejected on scientific grounds, not only on wht the Bible teaches.

Since nothing in the ToE can be proven, you accept what the evolutionist, evangelists preach by faith alone.

At least we have a possible answer for how the universe came into being, you do not. You also have no answer as to how life began. You don't know what the first life form was but even if your guess is right, you can't explain, scientifically of course, how some single celled something could ever produce complex life forms from its gene pool.

So I will accept the understanding of the uneducated backwoods preacher over your lack of enough intelligece to explain what I have just mentioned.

kermit
 
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