4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[cygnusx1]

Ah, yes --- we're saved by the grace of God, and by the FAITH of God (which He gifts to those whom HE chooses).

And against verses like Rom2:6-8 (which says "those who BY doing good seek for glory honor immortality, receive eternal life --- but those WHO are selfishly ambitious and ...obey unrighteousness, wrath") --- no, the real dynamic is "God decides all, saving-faith is God's decision, AND God then holds a Judgment at the end of time --- condemning those who did not believe.

...even though that was His decision...

what's your problem , all deserve wrath God wrongs none , election wrongs no-one , Grace wrongs no-one , it seems you are grudging God's kindeness to me , just like the guys in the parable who got their maths wrong when some got a full days pay when they hadn't earned a full days pay !

ahhhhh , I am happy with both the faith IN God , and the faith OF God ... both expressions are in scripture , just get out your strongs concordance .


all the creeds , even those not calvinistsic teach faith is a gift , yes even Roman Catholic and Orthodox creeds , says alot about the Arminian approach , it's desperate !

 

[Easystreet]

God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith;

aside from the fact that forseen faith is not recorded as a reason for our election in scripture it is also illogical.


for what and who needs predestinating to salvation based upon forseen faith when they will be saved by faith anyway ..... who needs to destine , or purpose what will quite come to pass on it's own merits anyway , without any need for destiny ?

Predestination and election prove to be utterly superfluous with a view of faith forseen !

Answer this: Does God know all?

 

[nobdysfool]

Answer this: Does God know all?

Of course He knows all. But that doesn't mean that He MUST use what He knows about an individual in order to choose them. Just because you would, doesn't mean He would.

He can choose them without reference to what He knows they will do, especially because if He chooses them on the basis of what He Himself will cause in them, there is that causal loop that you keep avoiding and not addressing.

simply put, an effect cannot be its own cause. In terms of the discussion, God does not choose someone on the basis of something He Himself causes them to do, i.e. have faith in Christ. And, if He is not the cause of their faith, but only observes them having faith, and chooses them on that basis, (that they will believe) then He is showing favoritism to one person over another, based on their own actions. He is then rewarding right behavior by saving them. He can and does reward good works after salvation, but salvation is not predicated on good works, done by sinners in hope of salvation.

His choice of the elect is based on foreknowledge of the individual, not of their works, or their faith.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Answer this: Does God know all?

Why did the Holy Spirit lead john to write john 3:19 ?

because all men choose darkness over light...

but God rich in grace and mercy saves some

 

[Easystreet]

Liberty wins frist Football game. Go Flames

They were not predetermined to win, they freely won.

 

[nobdysfool]

Liberty wins frist Football game. Go Flames

They were not predetermined to win, they freely won.

And you know this, how?

 

[Easystreet]

Soul winning, Bible preaching, Anti-Calvinist Churches are leading the way in local and world evangelism. Liberals and RT minded Churches are either dying or proselytizing but virtually no growth from genuine Born Again people.

Why would anyone want to be in a church like these?

 

[Rick Otto]

They get a "decision", but they lose 80-90% of all those that come forward because it is showbiz, not God.
Have you heard about Hell's Best Kept Secret?
Please watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I4RjTabGbw

Realy Gordon. It is a serious problem. Please do check this out & tell me what's wrong with this video.
I'm not just shakin' a can o' beans at ya, bro!

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Soul winning, Bible preaching, Anti-Calvinist Churches are leading the way in local and world evangelism. Liberals and RT minded Churches are either dying or proselytizing but virtually no growth from genuine Born Again people.

Why would anyone want to be in a church like these?

Let's look at rev.. churches

rev 3:8 philadephia .... of little strength[small church] has kept my word

rev 3:1 Sardis has a name[famous] that thou livest, and art dead...

how does one tell how much spiritual growth one does... only God

 

[nobdysfool]

Soul winning, Bible preaching, Anti-Calvinist Churches are leading the way in local and world evangelism. Liberals and RT minded Churches are either dying or proselytizing but virtually no growth from genuine Born Again people.

Why would anyone want to be in a church like these?

Gordon, I would rather be in a church where the Word of God is preached and taught, where those who attend believe and practice God's Word, and don't follow the 'flavor of the month' "Purpose Driven" nonsense, or the latest wave of "pump the numbers up" baloney that passes for "soul-winning" in most Evangelical churches today.

Being anti-Calvinist is no badge of honor, it is a mark of shame, because even your SBC has Calvinist roots, and is returning to them. This country was founded by Calvinists, and it has been rightly said that John Calvin was the true Father of America. Your irrational rants against Calvinism show that you are in need of education, because you have failed 100% of the time to properly represent even one Calvinist belief correctly. Your opposition comes from a party spirit, built on irrationality and falsehoods, and fueled by a desire to stir up strife wherever Calvinists preach the Word. That is abundantly evident by your actions, words, and attitude.

 

[Easystreet]

They get a "decision", but they lose 80-90% of all those that come forward because it is showbiz, not God.
Have you heard about Hell's Best Kept Secret?
Please watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I4RjTabGbw

Realy Gordon. It is a serious problem. Please do check this out & tell me what's wrong with this video.
I'm not just shakin' a can o' beans at ya, bro!

I thought it was spinach, not beans. I had my hopes up thinking I could gulp down the spinach and just like Popeye, become something special, shucks . You popped my balloon! Now what am I going to do?

I'll gander at it sometime today. "The Way Of The Master" I am in agreement with what they say. It still does not change what I have said.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I must be being ignored again ....

 

[spirit1st]

GOD is NO respecter of persons, HE is seeking those who want truth in there lives! Very simple!
He died for all SINS EVER.
Very simple.

Once we think we are picked because we are better? we fool ourselves and start on a road of false truths.

it brings Pride into our lives .

Where we tend to LOOK down on others.
satan did this, thinking he was worthy above all others!
his reward, banned from heaven, dammed and doomed1

We are to serve all others, Be good foot washers. Humble ourselves to all others.
Our motives are very important to GOD!

Not understanding the scriptures will cause our motives to be wrong. and we will NEVER see the signs and wonders in our lives.

You understand WHY, the perfect church is NOT conquering the world?
False teachings.

The CHURCH today is the very same church as the first church, the problem is the teachings!

We have the very same HOLY GHOST , the very same bible and HE is NO respecter of persons!

Nothing has changed. Except/ Maybe we all have the bible NOW? Many back then did not!

Sop we are the ones without excuse, we follow MEN and Women instead of the LORD. We need to ask the HOLY GHOST daily .

JESUS CHRIST was always led and taught by the HOLY GHOST!
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Do not follow mankind.
satan used scripture to try and trick our LORD!

Man does it to, knowingly or unknowingly!

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
UNLESS the man or woman your following is just like opur LORD? then do not follow them.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

We hear others, But do not accept as truth, until the HOLY GHOST confirms in our hearts[spirit]

 

[Rick Otto]

I'll gander at it sometime today. "The Way Of The Master" I am in agreement with what they say.

Thanks, "G". I realy do want to know what you think of it. I'm pretty sure it'll change everything you've said.

 

[Easystreet]

Thanks, "G". I realy do want to know what you think of it. I'm pretty sure it'll change everything you've said.

I have watched a few programs here and there. Would be an excellent program for all sides of Conservative Evangelism to study and practice.

 

[cygnusx1]

Answer this: Does God know all?

of course !!

God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith;

aside from the fact that forseen faith is not recorded as any reason for our election in any scripture , it is also illogical.


for what and who needs predestinating to salvation based upon forseen faith when they will be saved by faith anyway ..... who needs to destine , or purpose what will quite naturally come to pass by human "free-will" anyway , without any need for destiny ?

Predestination and election prove to be utterly superfluous with a view of faith forseen !

and for many Christians Election and predestination is just that , superfluous !

 

[Ben johnson]

what's your problem, all deserve wrath God wrongs none, election wrongs no-one, Grace wrongs no-one, it seems you are begrudging God's kindeness to me...

God's kindness is meant to lead us to repentance; but hard unrepentant hearts make God mad, and cause them to miss immortality. Rom2:2-8

God's severity falls upon those who do not continue in His kindness (Rom11:21-23).

How do these principles accommodate "gifted repentance" and "gifted faith"?

just like the guys in the parable who got their maths wrong when some got a full days pay when they hadn't earned a full days pay!

This also fits "grace through faith". It doesn't matter when a person believes, as long as he receives Christ as Lord and Savior, he is God's adopted child. Jn1:12

ahhhhh , I am happy with both the faith IN God , and the faith OF God ... both expressions are in scripture, just get out your strongs concordance.

As I said in the post to which you're responding --- if it's "the faith OF God", then God is placing people in sin, or in repentance; and then running a faux-court at the Judgment, 'cause men's actions were fully decided by God...

Scripture doesn't say that, Cygnus; men are condemned because they would not believe. 1Jn5:10

all the creeds, even those not calvinistsic teach faith is a gift, yes even Roman Catholic and Orthodox creeds, says alot about the Arminian approach, it's desperate!

Scripture never asserts "God-gifted-faith". Faith comes from our hearts (Rom10:10), God receives the faith of those who come to Him by faith (Heb11:6).

God is just and justifier of he who HAS faith (Rom3:26). We simply cannot find the verse that says "God gifts faith to men before they turn to Him".

So whatever any "creed" proposes, or whatever any "doctrine" proposes, be it Calvinist, Arminian, Responsible-Grace, Catholic, Greek-Orthodox --- all must be subordinate to Scripture. Of course all of them claim they are; but you (being Calvinist) and I (being Responsible Grace) debate here to see which of our views aligns with Scripture.

Show me the "gifted-faith" verse.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

eph 2:8 faith and grace is a gift

 

[nobdysfool]

eph 2:8 faith and grace is a gift

While you are correct, you don't really expect Ben to accept that, do you?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

no... romans 10:3,