4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[A Brother In Christ]

Thanks for answering. The third answer is of course the sticking point as I do believe you see.

OK, then taking the Matthew Passage 11:21. "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

With this passage and the fact that Christ is making the statement implies that had they had more revelation they would have repented.

This in and of itself should cause, in all honesty, a major problem with fixed election. Fixed election argues that an elect person is based upon the counsel of God and that that counsel can not be changed. With that in mind the statement Jesus makes flies in the face of this doctrine.

say that God did change the book ... and lied

could he be are saviour ... no

that is against his character..would not happen

 

[Easystreet]

say that God did change the book ... and lied

could he be are saviour ... no

that is against his character..would not happen

All I have is what is. My dealings deal with existence, our present Bible.

That in mind, and real, leaves me with - statements that are either contridictory or explanitory.

I perfer explanitory for I firmly do not ascribe to contridiction of the Word.

What does all the mean? For me, it means that what is said, if isolated and not understood in a normal, grammatical, historical, literal manner, also considering the idiosyncratic characteristics of the specific culture with respect to its form/ genre, is wrong. This too has its limits for we are removed some 2000 years.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

So are bible is not living...

 

[Easystreet]

So are bible is not living...

No the Bible is not a "living document" as in new or adding anything to it or taking anything from it. It is an established cannon of 66 book.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

No the Bible is not a "living document" as in new or adding anything to it or taking anything from it. It is an established cannon of 66 book.

john 1:1 word was God ... calling him dead?

 

[Easystreet]

john 1:1 word was God ... calling him dead?

The word of God is living and sharper that a two edged sword.

In this sense the word of God is living, but in the since of philosophy it is not a living document. The idea of a living document in philosophical terms is something that is constantly changing, and at the whims of whoever and whatever.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I was looking for that one

word is alive and speaking ...are you reading and understanding

 

[Easystreet]

Publish date: August 20, 2004
Author: WAYNE JACKSON
Article description: When 1 Peter 1:1, 2 is seen in concert with related biblical material, the doctrine of election is removed from the confusing fog of sectarian dogma.
In the salutation of his first letter, Peter wrote: “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect. . . according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:1,2). Note that the epistle is addressed to “the elect.” The Bible theme of election has been made unnecessarily obscure by baseless theological theories (e.g., Calvinism, which teaches that God, before the creation of the world, arbitrarily elected those who would be lost and saved, irrespective of obedience or disobedience on their part). There are several important facts regarding this matter suggested in this context.

1. Election is according to the foreknowledge of God. This simply means that God, before the foundation of the world, elected (chose, determined) to provide a plan of redemption for man (whom he knew would fall from his initial holy estate), and that this choosing would be upon the basis of those who are “in him” (Christ) as opposed to those who are not (Ephesians 1:4).
2. From the divine side, election is accomplished by virtue of the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. This is a reference to the atoning death of the Son of God, who was foreshadowed by the animal offerings of the Old Testament economy (cf. Exodus 24:8; Hebrews 9:13,14). Jesus’ death satisfied the justice of God which demanded the payment for the penalty of sin (cf. Romans 3:24-26).
3. Our election involves a sanctification of the Spirit, i.e., by means of the Spirit’s guidance (through the word of God – John 17:17; Ephesians 5:26; 6:17; 1 Thessalonians 1:4,5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13,14) we learn of our need to be sanctified (separated from the world unto God’s service), hence, we are led to accept the heavenly election.
4. The design of Jehovah’s interest in our behalf is that we might be motivated unto obedience, since it is by means of our obedience that our souls are purified. (1 Peter 1:22).

So, election involves: God’s redemptive plan, Christ’s sacrificial death, the Holy Spirit’s revelation of the truth, and man’s obedience to the same!
When 1 Peter 1:1,2 is thus seen in concert with related biblical material, the doctrine of election is removed from the confusing fog of sectarian dogma. Underline each of the foregoing phrases in your Bible and make a few appropriate notations in the margin. These will enhance your instruction of others as you seek to teach the truth.

© 2004 by Christian Courier Publications. All rights reserved.

 

[cygnusx1]

God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith; just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God’s gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God’s gift (Eph. 1:8,9), believing is the consequence of my using His gift. If it were true that God had elected certain ones to be saved because in due time they would believe, then that would make believing a meritorious act, and in that event the saved sinner would have ground for "boasting," which Scripture emphatically denies: Ephesians 2:9.

Surely God’s Word is plain enough in teaching that believing is not a meritorious act. It affirms that Christians are a people "who have believed through grace" (Acts 18:27). If then, they have believed "through grace," there is absolutely nothing meritorious about "believing," and if nothing meritorious, it could not be the ground or cause which moved God to choose them. No; God’s choice proceeds not from anything in us, or anything from us, but solely from His own sovereign pleasure. Once more, in Romans 11:5, we read of "a remnant according to the election of grace." There it is, plain enough; election itself is of grace, and grace is unmerited favour something for which we had no claim upon God whatsoever.



It thus appears that it is highly important for us to have clear and scriptural views of the "foreknowledge" of God. Erroneous conceptions about it lead inevitably to thoughts most dishonoring to Him. The popular idea of Divine foreknowledge is altogether inadequate. God not only knew the end from the beginning, but He planned, fixed, predestinated everything from the beginning. And, as cause stands to effect, so God’s purpose is the ground of His prescience. If then the reader be a real Christian, he is so because God chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), and chose not because He foresaw you would believe, but chose simply because it pleased Him to choose: chose you notwithstanding your natural unbelief. This being so, all the glory and praise belongs alone to Him. You have no ground for taking any credit to yourself. You have "believed through grace" (Acts 18:27), and that, because your very election was "of grace" (Rom. 11:5).

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attrib_04.htm

 

[spirit1st]

HE gave EVERY MAN a MEASURE OF FAITH.
WHY EVERY MAN? Each has the chance to accept HIm.\

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[cygnusx1]

Paul's "attention" was required in no uncertain terms like a "gentle knocking on the door of his stony little murdering heart", rather He was violently knocked off his horse & stuck blind for three days.
Paul had no other choice in the face of irresistable grace, like all the rest who were predestined as they were placed in Christ before the foundation of the world(creation), in God's predeterminate council, according to His good pleasure, so that the doctrine of election stands, not the false doctrine of a free will decision made by an unregenerate slave to sin, which is what we are all born into this world(~of water) as. That is why we are born of spirit, "reborn" as "good trees" that are then capable of bringing forth good fruit like faith and repentance, two more gifts of the Spirit that justify our salvation before mankind, God needing no justification of His own decisions, Himself.
So yeah, I got it from scripture.
We ALL "have to" do what we are destined to do.
Being free to sin is no freedom at all.
Once you realize that, you become grateful to God for being Totaly Sovereign as is the only possible way for an omniscient & omnipotent person to be. You can't "allow" for random chance if you're omniscient, because having created everything including the past, present, & future of everything, you already know everything about everything.
And gratitude is exactly the right spirit to walk in the good works He ordained for you. Fear of loss is a lousy motivator, especialy for losers.

that is so good bro , a veritable meal , thanks !!!

 

[cygnusx1]

The scripture says we are foreknown. Saying faith is foreknown is a leap.

yes bro , a leap in the dark !

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Gordon

1 thes 5:24 faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

 

[Easystreet]

God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith;

{I do understand your position: I don't agree with it. Two things: One, the position that see all mankind as having the God given capacity to believe even though he is a sinner would mean that all men be act of creation have the capacity of faith. This is my position. In this case because we are in the image of God, and this capacity is just simply apart of our image of God likeness then the issue results in the same. For a man to not believe implies he can believe. To say a person persist in making a decision of "not-believing" must necessitate the opposite, for no one can make a decision to not-believe who is "DEAD". A dead person cannot do either. IN that RT, Calvinism and TULIPism teach the spiritual man is equated to "DEATH" in such a way that it has to be regenerated / brought to life whereby it can make a choice flies in the face of reason. The same "DEAD" person, who can't have faith, also cannot have the opposite because in this view any decision is impossible. Yet this view insists that the person does exercise "un-believe".

Two, one brother posits that the Romans passage stating that all have received a measure of faith. If this statement is to be understood to mean all mankind that it would equate to the same principle that is supported in the argument that man by virtue of being created in the likeness of God has this faith capacity. The end results are the same.

In my opinion the train leaves the track when RT and the others say that faith is a work unless it is a special gift. When you think about it if "faith" is real regardless of the why or means in which a person as the capacity to exercise it - it will never be a work.

(1) If faith is simple a part of the "God likeness of men" then it too is from God. If you want to call it a gift from this standpoint I can say amen. But regardless it is "faith" and "faith" is not "work"

(2) If faith is a measure given to all per Romans the same argument is true

(3) If faith is as RT states the results is the same. The only difference is only a few get it.

The RT side will never capitulate to all having faith, for to do so destroys their philosophy.}

just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God’s gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God’s gift (Eph. 1:8,9), believing is the consequence of my using His gift. If it were true that God had elected certain ones to be saved because in due time they would believe, then that would make believing a meritorious act, and in that event the saved sinner would have ground for "boasting," which Scripture emphatically denies: Ephesians 2:9.(emphasis mine)

It just does not add up. Why? Regardless of how man has faith - faith will never be a work.

Surely God’s Word is plain enough in teaching that believing is not a meritorious act.

All sides of Conservative Christianity believe this and accept this statement.

It affirms that Christians are a people "who have believed through grace" (Acts 18:27). If then, they have believed "through grace," there is absolutely nothing meritorious about "believing," and if nothing meritorious, it could not be the ground or cause which moved God to choose them. (emphasis mine)

From my side of the fence "Grace" is the ground or cause. God's determined plan was to save the lost and His Grace makes this possible. All the faith, that can exist, is worthless if there is no OBJECT in which to believe. The reason faith is not a work is because it, in and of itself, rest in the object. No object - no cause for believing. You can not have faith in none existence, no Grace. Without Grace faith can not exist toward that which does not exist. Have faith in --- in what? Grace. What is Grace? God's work, not man's. So faith, regardless of its source will never be a work

No; God’s choice proceeds not from anything in us, or anything from us, but solely from His own sovereign pleasure. Once more, in

This statemetn is interpratational and spring from your RT dase, understood.

Romans 11:5, we read of "a remnant according to the election of grace." There it is, plain enough; election itself is of grace, and grace is unmerited favour something for which we had no claim upon God whatsoever.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The contrast between grace in this verse is with the keeping of the Law. Keeping of the Law was a physical acted out, obligatino requried for the Isralites. Grace is not contrasted with faith, but with works. Faith, will never be a work.

The statement by grace through faith, not of works. Salvation is by grace (God's work) through faith (Man's responsibility), not of works (doing and trusting in any and all things for salvation)

It thus appears that it is highly important for us to have clear and scriptural views of the "foreknowledge" of God. Erroneous conceptions about it lead inevitably to thoughts most dishonoring to Him. The popular idea of Divine foreknowledge is altogether inadequate. God not only knew the end from the beginning, but He planned, fixed, predestinated everything from the beginning. And, as cause stands to effect, so God’s purpose is the ground of His prescience. If then the reader be a real Christian, he is so because God chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), and chose not because He foresaw you would believe, but chose simply because it pleased Him to choose: chose you notwithstanding your natural unbelief. This being so, all the glory and praise belongs alone to Him. You have no ground for taking any credit to yourself. You have "believed through grace" (Acts 18:27), and that, because your very election was "of grace" (Rom. 11:5).

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attrib

Will deal with last quote later. I live in a house filled with Ladies, so you know who the bosses are, I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[cygnusx1]

God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith;

aside from the fact that forseen faith is not recorded as a reason for our election in scripture it is also illogical.


for what and who needs predestinating to salvation based upon forseen faith when they will be saved by faith anyway ..... who needs to destine , or purpose what will quite come to pass on it's own merits anyway , without any need for destiny ?

Predestination and election prove to be utterly superfluous with a view of faith forseen !

 

[Ben johnson]

HE gave EVERY MAN a MEASURE OF FAITH.
WHY EVERY MAN? Each has the chance to accept HIm.\

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom12:3 is written to "believers". God did not give saving faith to anyone.

 

[nobdysfool]

No, they have to come up with that all on their own....

 

[cygnusx1]

No, they have to come up with that all on their own....

yes even though the scriptures speak of "the faith of God " .......not merely the faith in God .........

 

[Ben johnson]

yes even though the scriptures speak of "the faith of God " .......not merely the faith in God .........

Ah, yes --- we're saved by the grace of God, and by the FAITH of God (which He gifts to those whom HE chooses).

And against verses like Rom2:6-8 (which says "those who BY doing good seek for glory honor immortality, receive eternal life --- but those WHO are selfishly ambitious and ...obey unrighteousness, wrath") --- no, the real dynamic is "God decides all, saving-faith is God's decision, AND God then holds a Judgment at the end of time --- condemning those who did not believe.

...even though that was His decision...

 

[nobdysfool]

Oh, how little you understand of what you so confidently assert. You clearly still have not learnt a single thing about Reformed Theology, despite the myriad of posts wherein we have attempted to raise your level of understanding. The saying is true, you can lead a mule to water, but you can't make him drink. (yes, I know it's horse, but I'm making a point....)

I still say you have too much invested in your doctrine now to ever admit that you are wrong, about any part of it.

You've painted yourself into a corner, and now you're trying to paint a doorway in the wall behind you, so you can escape. That only works in cartoons, not in real life....