3 Questions

[Butch5]

God does not have to predestine to be what something already is. Men are born sinners, God does not have to predestine them to be sinners. Adam and Eve bore children AFTER they sinned. As with all other living things, God created them to bear after their own kind. Sinners cannot produce sin-less children. No need for God to predestine sinner to be sinners, it's their natural state of being.

What God predestines is by design, actual conscious intent. He has a reason for what He predestines, whether we see it (or can see it) or not.

The problem here is that you are trying to cast too broad a net, and you are not listening to what others are telling you. If you want to know what Calvinists believe, ask Calvinists. Don't ask non-Calvinists, they don't know and they will just create a lot of noise trying to drown the Calvinists out.

According to Calvinism, how can man be born a sinner if he has not been predestined to be so? Don't Calvinists hold that God predestines all things?

 

[Patmos]

Are Men Born Reprobates?
http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin01.html

Paul described people who are "reprobates" whom God has given over to a "reprobate mind" because of their constant refusal to acknowledge Him, after repeatedly being enlightened and drawn by Him. "Reprobates" perfectly fit the Calvinist's idea of "total depravity." But, Paul made it abundantly clear in Romans one that a person is not born a "reprobate," but becomes one after continually resisting God's offers of grace and mercy. This is NOT the condition of mankind in general. In other words, he is not born in a state of "total depravity" as defined by Calvinists. He BECOMES totally depraved through resisting God's grace. His condition at birth is innocence. He becomes a sinner when he rebels against God in accord with his fallen nature. He is as described by Paul, being lost and incapable of changing his situation without God's direct intervention.

Rom 1:16-28
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein [in the Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but BECAME vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
(KJV)

 

[Patmos]

Does God Draw the Non-Elect?

http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin01.html

Calvinism's "Total Depravity" claim lays the logical foundation for the idea that God only enlightens and draws a few "elect" individuals. But, as is plain from Romans 1, the whole premise of "total depravity" is flawed at its very foundation. God draws ALL MEN to repentance, as we will prove as we proceed.

John 1:8-12
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(KJV)

John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(KJV)

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
(KJV)

Christ enlightens "EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD!" He draws "ALL MEN" unto Himself. Surely He drew those Paul described in Romans 1.

We agree with Calvinists that being "dead in sins" means that one cannot save himself, and without such enlightenment, one cannot choose God. However, we do not agree that God only gives such light to the "elect." It is perfectly clear that God draws and enlightens ALL MEN, by revealing Himself through creation and through the gospel, even those who will become reprobates and go straight to hell.

Notes:
1. Loraine Boettner, Man's Totally Helpless Condition, http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/
2. Rev. William MacLean, M.A, Another Gospel, http://www.the-highway.com/errors_MacLean.html#TOTAL%20DEP

 

[nobdysfool]

Are Men Born Reprobates?
http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin01.html

Paul described people who are "reprobates" whom God has given over to a "reprobate mind" because of their constant refusal to acknowledge Him, after repeatedly being enlightened and drawn by Him. "Reprobates" perfectly fit the Calvinist's idea of "total depravity." But, Paul made it abundantly clear in Romans one that a person is not born a "reprobate," but becomes one after continually resisting God's offers of grace and mercy. This is NOT the condition of mankind in general. In other words, he is not born in a state of "total depravity" as defined by Calvinists. He BECOMES totally depraved through resisting God's grace. His condition at birth is innocence. He becomes a sinner when he rebels against God in accord with his fallen nature. He is as described by Paul, being lost and incapable of changing his situation without God's direct intervention.

Rom 1:16-28
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein [in the Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but BECAME vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
(KJV)

Right off the bat, you change the terms, and I think intentionally. I did not say they were born reprobates, I said they were born sinners. There is a difference. Your entire post after that is trying to establish the error you committed right at the start. All men are sinners, but not all men are reprobates. No one is born reprobate, they become that way.

So right out of the gate, you try to slip by a little word change, one you think won't be noticed, and won't make any difference. It makes a difference and you need to correct it.

 

[nobdysfool]

Does God Draw the Non-Elect?

http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin01.html

Calvinism's "Total Depravity" claim lays the logical foundation for the idea that God only enlightens and draws a few "elect" individuals. But, as is plain from Romans 1, the whole premise of "total depravity" is flawed at its very foundation. God draws ALL MEN to repentance, as we will prove as we proceed.

John 1:8-12
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(KJV)

John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(KJV)

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
(KJV)

Christ enlightens "EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD!" He draws "ALL MEN" unto Himself. Surely He drew those Paul described in Romans 1.

We agree with Calvinists that being "dead in sins" means that one cannot save himself, and without such enlightenment, one cannot choose God. However, we do not agree that God only gives such light to the "elect." It is perfectly clear that God draws and enlightens ALL MEN, by revealing Himself through creation and through the gospel, even those who will become reprobates and go straight to hell.

Notes:
1. Loraine Boettner, Man's Totally Helpless Condition, http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/
2. Rev. William MacLean, M.A, Another Gospel, http://www.the-highway.com/errors_MacLean.html#TOTAL%20DEP

You're playing fast and loose with the terminology.

 

[nobdysfool]

According to Calvinism, how can man be born a sinner if he has not been predestined to be so? Don't Calvinists hold that God predestines all things?

Who are you, EmSw's twin? Read carefully what I said. Men are born sinners by nature. They are born that way because their parents were born that way, all the way back to Adam and Eve. Nothing about that has to be predestined.

 

[Butch5]

Who are you, EmSw's twin? Read carefully what I said. Men are born sinners by nature. They are born that way because their parents were born that way, all the way back to Adam and Eve. Nothing about that has to be predestined.

Then there is something that happens that God didn't predestine. Doesn't that go against what Calvinists believe?

You said men are born sinners by nature. Can you establish that from the Scriptures?

 

[Patmos]

Right off the bat, you change the terms, and I think intentionally. I did not say they were born reprobates, I said they were born sinners. There is a difference.

Whooaaa there. To me reprobate and sinner is one and the same. Please explain where i have got this wrong.

Your entire post after that is trying to establish the error you committed right at the start. All men are sinners, but not all men are reprobates. No one is born reprobate, they become that way.

Ok, I have made an error, unintentional I assure you. I am pleased that you say "No one is born reprobate, they become that way." I agree totally.

So right out of the gate, you try to slip by a little word change, one you think won't be noticed, and won't make any difference. It makes a difference and you need to correct it.

Nope, no trying to slip anywhere. Please elaborate and correct me.

 

[Patmos]

You're playing fast and loose with the terminology.

No, I am not playing. Please elaborate.

 

[Patmos]

.... Men are born sinners by nature. They are born that way because their parents were born that way, all the way back to Adam and Eve. Nothing about that has to be predestined.

I am thinking that many see this as being born 'totally depraved/ total inability'. If so I would disagree, e. g Rom 1:20.

I think you are saying men are born such that there is NO chance they they will NOT sin at some time in their life, and that 'some time' is pretty soon in their existence.

Am I understanding you correctly ? if not, please shoot me down.

Regards

 

[nobdysfool]

I am thinking that many see this as being born 'totally depraved/ total inability'. If so I would disagree, e. g Rom 1:20.

That's the problem. Until the terminology and such are the same on both sides all we are doing is talking past each other. Calvinists tend to use the terms in the same way, meaning the same things, so it is YOU who will have to get the terminology right. As it is, you play fast and loose with the terms to keep from being pinned down and shown to be wrong.

I think you are saying men are born such that there is NO chance they they will NOT sin at some time in their life, and that 'some time' is pretty soon in their existence.

Am I understanding you correctly ? if not, please shoot me down.

That is precisely what I'm saying. All men are sinners from the very start.

 

[EmSw]

God does not have to predestine to be what something already is. Men are born sinners, God does not have to predestine them to be sinners. Adam and Eve bore children AFTER they sinned. As with all other living things, God created them to bear after their own kind. Sinners cannot produce sin-less children. No need for God to predestine sinner to be sinners, it's their natural state of being.

But NF, sin did not exist in eternity. Before man, sin was absent. Did sin come into existence on its own?

I've heard it said, God predestined everything down to the smallest detail. Did sin slip in without God's permission?

Adam and Eve weren't born sinners. Did Adam and Eve do something God hadn't planned? Did sin surprise God in that it came into being without Him? Was eating of the forbidden tree not predestined?

If God didn't predestine sin, then can we say God isn't in control of everything, and didn't predestine everything down to the smallest detail?

What God predestines is by design, actual conscious intent. He has a reason for what He predestines, whether we see it (or can see it) or not.

How did God predestine Christ's death, if sin wasn't in His original plan? Did this surprise Him that sin crept its way in?

The problem here is that you are trying to cast too broad a net, and you are not listening to what others are telling you. If you want to know what Calvinists believe, ask Calvinists. Don't ask non-Calvinists, they don't know and they will just create a lot of noise trying to drown the Calvinists out.

This is why I specifically asked Calvinists these questions.

You would think Calvinists would jump for joy when discussing predestination, since it it the heart of the Gospel. It is such an important doctrine in their beliefs, you would think maybe they would shout it from the rooftops.

However, I find it to be a little irritating to them when digging a little deeper into this Head Doctrine.

 

[EmSw]

I almost pressed the "like" button when I read that. Then I thought of posting a thumbs-up or hands clapping emoticon. Then I thought, "They'll never get the point--and don't want to hear the point--anyway."

So Albion, did God predestine you to be a lost sinner?

Exactly so. Despite a claim of some consensus on the three questions, few of the respondents actually DID answer them and most pointed out that the questions were invalid in one way or another. Of course, the writer of the OP could have done the obvious thing right up front if a poll of Calvinists was the real objective. By that I mean...post the questions on the REFORMED forum.

Albion, plenty of Reformed grace this forum. I think they can answer themselves very well.

Why are you invalidating my questions?

 

[EmSw]

But, you not only heard it, you GOT it. I'll accept a virtual hand clap, thumbs-up any day! The fact is, that point right there seriously undercuts his premise.

If you want to disdain my questions, you had every right and freedom to not answer them.

Hence my remark that he is attempting to cast too broad a net.

What is a bigger net than predestination?

 

[EmSw]

I think you're hit the nail squarely on the head. He definitely has a certain outcome in mind, and he will stop at nothing to try to make it come out that way. He wants his already-decided-on out come to prevail, and he'll keep flogging this horse, no matter what.

I asked not to talk about the poster, and you and Albion couldn't resist.

Do you not have an outcome when you post on this thread? Or, do you just write to be writing? Do you ever want to make a point in your posts?

I think we all know what is going on when one keeps doing the same thing, over and over again, each time expecting a different result....

Do you know you moan and complain over and over again? What's going on here with your constant resentment and accusations?

 

[EmSw]

I'm pretty sure you are talking about me. For that reason I'll go ahead and answer you now since I'm leaving the forum - if I can resist staying.

Stay awhile Marvin, you are very much welcome here.

And yes, I was talking to you specifically, but all Calvinists in general.

Since you're wondering - I'll tell you why I didn't answer the question before.

The answer is threefold.

1. You are a trouble maker IMO and casting pearls before swine, as it were, is not a wise thing to do. I have done it in the past with you and I was trying hard to have learned my lesson.

Marvin, Marvin, be assured I am no swine looking to tear you apart. These questions have to do with your doctrine, not you.

2. You were making such a fool of yourself jumping up and down like a little child looking for attention. I was enjoying the spectacle of no one engaging you post after post and your rather childish reaction to that fact.

And were you jumping up and down like a little child when no one was engaging me?

3. The question itself is silly in light of where you were obviously going with it. You are quite transparent sometimes.

There are no silly questions, just silly answers.

Do you not have an obvious plan when you ask questions, or do you ask without any reason to be asking?

You often say and ask really silly things without thinking them through first as well and I can hardly wait to see what's going to be next.

Oh Marvin, I thought these questions through and through; that's why I asked them.

Again, questions aren't silly, just the answers.

In light of my answer to one of your other questions concerning God's predestination of all things --- the obvious answer coming from me is a firm YES.

I see you and another Calvinist disagree here, but that's no problem. Everyone gets to freely choose what they desire to believe.

You think that you are baiting a trap for Calvinists. But what you are really doing is fixing to say some more really silly things which will lack, as usual, any semblance of logic.

If you do not want critical thinking concerning your doctrines, then I advise to keep them to yourself and not tell us what you believe. Don't tell us you believe everything is predestined and not expect some to question that belief.

"Predestination" comes from before the foundation of the world. God doesn't predestine salvation from sin after He predestines that sin. He does it at the same "time" (if indeed that concept even applies) namely before the world began.

That sounds like the fireman who started a fire, so others can see and praise him as a savior for putting it out.

Sorry I haven't resisted the temptation to be critical of you. It's just that you give a person so much to work with.

As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

God predestined that I have a few more hairs on my head at 30 than at 70. I may have been predestined to have one hundred thousand at 70 whereas I was predestined to have two hundred thousand at 30.

So, God's predestination does change. Or, should we say, it's dynamic.

I may have been predestined to be slim at 20 and I may have been predestined to be a bit more pudgy at 70.

I may have been predestined to be lost at 13 years old and saved at 30.

So what?

Again, His predestination does change for a person. How can you get around this?

Where does this undermine the belief that God predestined all things that happen in His creation to happen just as they happen?

If God predestined you to be slim at 30 and pudgy at 70, what is keeping Him from predestining to save you at 30 and later, predestining to reprobate you at 70?

It's not you have a say in the matter? Will you talk back to God if He reprobates you at an older age?

I suppose you believe that because God predestined that Christ be dead on Saturday morning He couldn't also have predestined that Christ be alive on Sunday morning. Do you really believe such things?

The more I see you say, the more I see God's predestination does change.

Are you really unable to grasp what everyone else can see?

Undoubtedly you were predestined to not be given wisdom before today. But that doesn't mean that you were not also predestined to have insight tomorrow.

Or have you predestined me to be without wisdom? I see a lot of what you accuse others really comes from your heart, not God's.

Hence - we keep trying to get through to you and will only stop when hitting our head against a wall starts to give us a headache. I have reached that point with you and a few other armchair theologians here in the forum.

Stop trying to get through to me. You are not predestined, nor authorized to be the one who guides and leads me into truth. That is reserved for God, and Him only.

That's why I'm finally leaving for good if I can resist coming back for more.

If I leave - I was predestined to leave.

And if you come back, will you be predestined to come back? Why do you say God's predestination does not change? Can you see by your own words, it is constantly changing?

But that doesn't mean that you will not be reached at sometime in the future by another preacher of the gospel - if indeed it was predestined to happen that way.

My prayer for you is that you will rest in the finished work of Christ at Calvary as your only hope of salvation sometime before you die.

From my many conversations with you I have clearly seen that you have not yet done so.

Since you do not think I am saved, your doctrine of total depravity bites the dust.

And why are you praying for me, when my final destiny has already been predestined? Will your prayers change things? Will you pray against God's will and predestination?

 

[Albion]

Albion, plenty of Reformed grace this forum. I think they can answer themselves very well.

I think that's a good perspective to adopt. It's also why I have said that simply asking Calvinists what they believe would be the way to go with this inquiry...and why it's surprising that you haven't done this from the start.

 

[nobdysfool]

But NF, sin did not exist in eternity. Before man, sin was absent. Did sin come into existence on its own?

Sin came into existence with Lucifer,hich pre-dated Man.

I've heard it said, God predestined everything down to the smallest detail. Did sin slip in without God's permission?

Adam and Eve weren't born sinners. Did Adam and Eve do something God hadn't planned? Did sin surprise God in that it came into being without Him? Was eating of the forbidden tree not predestined?

No, sin was very much part of God's Plan from the beginning. Not because He wanted it for a random thing, bet because it had to be dealt with in such a way that it would be forever defeated. This goes far beyond the day to day struggle we experience with sin in our own lives, just as God is concerned with and involved in far greater things than the day to day ephemera of your daily life.

If God didn't predestine sin, then can we say God isn't in control of everything, and didn't predestine everything down to the smallest detail?

Since He did, your conclusion is meaningless, as usual.

How did God predestine Christ's death, if sin wasn't in His original plan? Did this surprise Him that sin crept its way in?

Quit asking stupid questions.

This is why I specifically asked Calvinists these questions.

You would think Calvinists would jump for joy when discussing predestination, since it it the heart of the Gospel. It is such an important doctrine in their beliefs, you would think maybe they would shout it from the rooftops.

However, I find it to be a little irritating to them when digging a little deeper into this Head Doctrine.

The biggest reason why you aren't getting the answers you claim to want, is all to do with the way you ask. Your questions are belligerent, rude, demanding and designed to involve people in endless rabbit trails and side issues, because the truth is, based on the above mentioned criteria, you don't want the answers that show you to be wrong, and believe me, you are dead wrong about much of Calvinism, starting with this hare-brained idea that predestination is the heart of Calvinism. It is NOT. Calvinism swings on the gate of Total Inability. Take that out, and the rest of it is weakened. People have been trying for over 500 years, and none have taken it down. You will not succeed, either. Especially by going after predestination. You are trying to assail the strongest doctrine of Calvinism, and it's not even the central tenant of Calvinism. It's more like the second line of defense. You are on a fool's mission.

 

[nobdysfool]

If you want to disdain my questions, you had every right and freedom to not answer them.

And I also have the right to answer them and show how shallow and deceitful you are, too.

What is a bigger net than predestination?

All the greater will be your fall...

 

[Patmos]

That's the problem. Until the terminology and such are the same on both sides all we are doing is talking past each other.

This is PRECISELY why I post Calvinist texts verbatim, without any change, as you saw in the Calvinism explained thread.

Calvinists tend to use the terms in the same way, meaning the same things, so it is YOU who will have to get the terminology right.

This is PRECISELY why I post Calvinist texts verbatim, without any change, as you saw in the Calvinism explained thread.

As it is, you play fast and loose with the terms to keep from being pinned down and shown to be wrong.

Actually, no, I have NOT played anything, fast or loose. Instead I take a LOT of time getting hold of ACTUAL Calvinist texts, and quote verbatim, without any change, as you saw in the Calvinism explained thread.

So far I have NOT been 'pinned down' at all, not once.

So far I have NOT been shown to be wrong at all, not once.

I was wondering if the 'Calvinist's' in the Calvinism explained thread had been raptured as there was no 'pinning down' or 'showing to be wrong'.

Is there a rapture for Amillennialist ?