3 Questions

[Patmos]

Spurgeon's Sermon 1516 where he gives Calvinist's a big rebuke for changing the meaning of words starts with:

“will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Tim. 2:4)


Paul told the Galatians, “As many of you as have been baptized unto Christ have put on Christ. … And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Gal. 3:27–29.)

On the question of man's responsibility, Paul taught that God “will render to every man according to his deeds. … For there is no respect of persons with God.” (Rom. 2:6–11.)


Paul told the Romans that their conduct would determine their eternal reward: “Know ye not … his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Rom. 6:16.)


Paul’s letters also make it clear that “the elect” can fall from grace and thus lose their reward. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.( Rom. 11:20-21.)


Also the necessity of holding “stedfast unto the end.” (Heb. 3:14; and 1 Cor. 9:27.)

From these scriptures, it seems clear that Paul did not believe in predestination as defined by Calvinism.

 

[Albion]

Spurgeon's Sermon 1516 where he gives Calvinist's a big rebuke for changing the meaning of words starts with:

“will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Tim. 2:4)


Paul told the Galatians, “As many of you as have been baptized unto Christ have put on Christ. … And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Gal. 3:27–29.)

On the question of man's responsibility, Paul taught that God “will render to every man according to his deeds. … For there is no respect of persons with God.” (Rom. 2:6–11.)


Paul told the Romans that their conduct would determine their eternal reward: “Know ye not … his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Rom. 6:16.)


Paul’s letters also make it clear that “the elect” can fall from grace and thus lose their reward. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.( Rom. 11:20-21.)


Also the necessity of holding “stedfast unto the end.” (Heb. 3:14; and 1 Cor. 9:27.)

From these scriptures, it seems clear that Paul did not believe in predestination as defined by Calvinism.

Just a quick comment. Most of those verses are easily seen to be compatible with the idea of predestination.

That's not to say the others are not compatible, but most on the list caused me to say to myself as I read them, "yes, that's in line with predestination."

 

[Patmos]

I was given the article below by a Bible translator in person.

So there is no mysterious secret understanding that Calvinists have and the rest do not.

And the charge of 'playing fast and loose with words" is itself fast and loose.

"The Greek word proorizo, which is made up of the prefix pro (meaning “before or in front of; beforehand, or earlier”) and the verb orizo (meaning “to determine, mark out, designate, destine, ordain, or appoint,” or “to divide or separate from … to pre-appoint or pre-ordain)” can be translated a number of different ways. In fact, various combinations of words have been used to translate the term over a period covering hundreds of years"

 

[nobdysfool]

At the end of the day, all this shows is that you cannot stand the idea that God truly is Sovereign, even over your decisions, and that He is directing things toward a sure end, using your very decisions, and the decisions of billions of others to bring about that which He foreordained and predestined before the world was formed. The idea that you or anyone is "autonomous" is laughable. No one is a "puppet", but you are not free to do as you will, away from and apart from His oversight and direction.

God is firmly and totally in control, and you ultimately will do exactly as He has ordained that you do, and you will do so willingly and with no thought or indication of any sort of coercion or force (because there is none), because you will act and do as He has foreseen you to do and He has already incorporated your so-called "free will" actions into His unfolding Plan. God doesn't have to force anyone to do anything, because He is in control of the circumstances surrounding your decisions, and the decisions of those around you, and of any and everyone whose decisions will impact and affect you. He knows what your choices are, what your preferences are, what you are likely to do, what you probably would do, and therefore exactly what you will do in any given situation and scenario, with an accuracy which you cannot even fathom.

Bottom line, God is totally and completely in control, down to the smallest detail, and you are doing exactly what He has foreordained that you do. Try as you might, you cannot escape it.

 

[Patmos]

Just a quick comment. Most of those verses are easily seen to be compatible with the idea of predestination.

That's not to say the others are not compatible, but most on the list caused me to say to myself as I read them, "yes, that's in line with predestination."

The point was to show that the words as defined by Webster's are correct and not misleading as you earlier suggested. Having asked for clarification you now evade the issue.

Paul told the Romans that their conduct would determine their eternal reward: “Know ye not … his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Rom. 6:16.) Synergism

You say "yes, that's in line with predestination." -Synergism, Really ?

 

[nobdysfool]

False accusation. It shows that some 'calvinists' like to play games and waste peoples time.

You give lip service, but the realty is far different. Calvinism demands that you stop seeing your self as the center of your Christian life. It is not all about you, it's all about HIM. Top to bottom, side to side, inside and out.

As said Jacob Arminus.

And your point?

Has he predestined for you to falsely misrepresenting others?

No He has not. I've been here long enough to see that hatred of Calvinism is far different than hatred of any other flavor of
Christianity and Christian-like cults. There's a reason for that. The practical worship of free will is a strong sign, and is met with reactions far stronger than necessary. You can say I'm wrong, but I know I'm not.

Another truth is that I don't need your approval to validate my beliefs. I don't lay awake nights wondering how to change your minds. God will do that in His own time and way.

 

[Albion]

The point was to show that the words as defined by Webster's are correct and not misleading as you earlier suggested. Having asked for clarification you now evade the issue.

You mean that I won't explain again and again points that I've laid out for you only to have you come back and say,
"Huh? I don't get it" or "please explain more clearly" or words to that effect. There's a limit.

You say "yes, that's in line with predestination."

That's right.

 

[Albion]

Well, can you back any of that diatribe up by quoting any of my actual posts ?.

Of course. See posts 210, 212, 218, and 220.

 

[twob4me]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT ON~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A few more posts were removed in another clean up. This is the second clean up and Mod Hat made in a few days. You are to be addressing the content of a post NOT the poster personally. The Flaming and Goading rules also state that you are to treat all members with respect and courtesy through civil dialogue. That is not happening here. If you continue to post like you have been this thread can and will be closed permanently and those involved may find themselves with staff actions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT OFF~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Patmos]

Of course. See posts 210, 212, 218, and 220.

It is very unclear to me. For example WCF says this (hi-lights mine):

CHAPTER 1 Part 7.

"All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, Nor alike clear unto all yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them."

Therefore, I assert, an unlearned person such as myself in the due use of ordinary means - a dictionary - may attain sufficient understanding of those things necessary for salvation.

Would you say WCF is completely wrong on this ?

When speaking of the Calvinist idea of predestination what is this particular meaning of the word ?

Why is it that even the Calvinist fraternity on CF cannot define it or agree what it is ?

Maybe the whole world, from the Apostles, early Church Fathers, Lutherans and all this who are not Calvinist might be right in their common understand of this word! What do you think?

 

[Patmos]

The object of "predestination" in Rom. 8:29 is "to be conformed to the image of his Son".

 

[Albion]

The object of "predestination" in Rom. 8:29 is "to be conformed to the image of his Son".

 

[Patmos]

So not predetermined to be a reprobate.

 

[Patmos]

Case closed!

 

[nobdysfool]

Think what you like, nothing has been settled here.

 

[EmSw]

Think what you like, nothing has been settled here.

Correct, it hasn't been settled. You answered God predestines everything, except when confronted with man predestined to be born a lost sinner, you deny He predestined everything.

 

[nobdysfool]

There is no need to predestine something that is already certain, and man being born a sinner IS a certainty, and has been since Adam and Eve had Seth. To predestine is to make certain what would otherwise not be certain. God is not "winging it". He knows precisely how things will occur, because He has predestined them to occur precisely that way. That is what predestining things means. Even the so-called free will decisions of man are predestined, from His side, because He knows the end from the beginning, which means that He knows all from beginning to end, having predestined it to be that way.

I do not subscribe to double predestination, so once again things have been said as certainties about me that are only assumptions, and bad ones at that.

I no longer wish to discuss this topic, as it has become so confused and full of lies and half-truths that it is of no value to continue. What I believe has not been threatened in the least, but rather strengthened. You have failed and you know it. Have the maturity and grace to let it go.

And if you can't, please at least learn how to ask questions in a less confrontational manner.

 

[Patmos]

The object of "predestination" in Rom. 8:29 is "to be conformed to the image of his Son".

So not predetermined to be a reprobate.

Case closed. As is the meaning of words as shown in Webster's dictionary. Also various translations as detailed in post 223.

Think what you like, nothing has been settled here.

The object of "predestination" in Rom. 8:29 is "to be conformed to the image of his Son"

Settled. No lies. No half truths.

BTW. If one does not subscribe to Double Predestination then one is disagree ing with the Westminster Confessions.

An disagreeing with Canons of Dort.

And Calvinism in general.

 

[nobdysfool]

Go do your happy dance. Nothing has been resolved here, and you have not defeated Calvinism. But, if it makes you feel better, do your happy dance and enjoy your imagined victory. No one's gonna stop you...

 

[Patmos]

Go do your happy dance. Nothing has been resolved here, and you have not defeated Calvinism. But, if it makes you feel better, do your happy dance and enjoy your imagined victory. No one's gonna stop you...

What has been resolved is that predestination IS a main point for Calvinism per Westminster confessions.

What has also been resolved is the supposed secret esoteric understanding that some Calvinists maintain is bunk.

Westminster Confessions Chapter 3

Of God's Eternal Decree
I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[4] yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[5]

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[7]

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[8]

SO, NOTHING IMAGINED.

Thanks for the opportunity of clearing that up.