“Sinners in the hands of an angry God”

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

Encouragement in what is the point. I don't recall Christ stating that by following him riches (of the material kind) would follow as a matter of course (or that we should be praying for them).

For the record, I don't go along with the wealth & prosperity movement. I do see some of that in Joel, but not as overt as others. I see more of what would be encouraging in the sense that we need to live the best lives for God that we can. More of a positive thinking sort of spin as well. Which can be overdone, granted. But all is not bad news either. Balance.

Go Cards!

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

It is perfectly fair to judge a pastor by his message. His stinks.

I have found that people are usually the quickest to judge others over the things that they themselves are likely to do. We seen that with Jimmy Swaggert. Don't know who said it but I like it: "Our suspicions of others are aroused by the knowledge of ourselves."

Go Cards!

 

[FictionalHero]

Very very true Pujols. We are the quickest to judge words or acts that relate the closest to ourselves.

 

[simonthezealot]

On the cross Christ beared the sins for His people.
He was crushed under God's wrath.
His death satisfies the justice of a Just God.
Truth is a means to an end, and when it's not preached THAT means is missing.

And pujols if you intend on saying thats my interpretation then are you suggesting that no one can know? if so then God has given us a worthless book. Paul writes, “If any man think himself to be a prophet or spiritual,let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord” (1 Cor 14:37).

One last comment, granted every preacher EVEN the ones who accurately preach the cross, FAIL.
But how about starting with preaching the cross? Which i've never seen Joel do.

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

Truth is a means to an end, and when it's not preached THAT means is missing.

Simon, perhaps you misstated, but do you realize what you just said makes truth relativistic? I know that's not what you believe. Truth is truth whether one believes it or not. It's not the means to an end. It is the end.

And pujols if you intend on saying thats my interpretation then are you suggesting that no one can know?

if so then God has given us a worthless book. Paul writes, “If any man think himself to be a prophet or spiritual,let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord” (1 Cor 14:37).

I think Joel would acknowledge all those things that Paul taught.

One last comment, granted every preacher EVEN the ones who accurately preach the cross, FAIL. But how about starting with preaching the cross? Which i've never seen Joel do.

I don't think it's ever bad to preach the cross. That's something Joel will have to answer to if he's not been faithful to do what God has told him to do. Just like we'll be accountable for every idle word. Bummer.

Go Cards!

 

[simonthezealot]

You think truth is the end and not the means? maybe you could explain this a bit.
I agree there is only one truth BTW.

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

You know simon, one thing that could help change the pulpit in America is the current economic crisis. I wonder what the prosperity people would do in a 'depression' economy? I really feel like we're headed for something like that. It's a wake up call for this country and the American church. A lot of the 'soft sell' approaches will drop off if this happens.

Go Cards!

 

[simonthezealot]

You know simon, one thing that could help change the pulpit in America is the current economic crisis. I wonder what the prosperity people would do in a 'depression' economy? I really feel like we're headed for something like that. It's a wake up call for this country and the American church. A lot of the 'soft sell' approaches will drop off if this happens.

Go Cards!

I agree completely, truth is if you've faith enough to save you that is the most awesome miracle ...The health and wealth danger is that many of these "almost/potential" believers are left with the sense that God has abandoned them when the reality is there false doctrine is what has abandoned them, the end result of them questioning God is one my primary concerns with this type of preaching...
His grace is SUFFICIENT.

 

[Tonks]

I have found that people are usually the quickest to judge others over the things that they themselves are likely to do. We seen that with Jimmy Swaggert. Don't know who said it but I like it: "Our suspicions of others are aroused by the knowledge of ourselves."Go Cards!

Sounds like a convenient way not to actually have to engage in discussion. "Oh, you must be just like him and trying to deflect blame from yourself."

Sounds like fortune cookie Christianity to me.

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

Sounds like a convenient way not to actually have to engage in discussion. "Oh, you must be just like him and trying to deflect blame from yourself." Sounds like fortune cookie Christianity to me.

I'm sure everything but what you believe sounds wrong. When the people from Joel's church get to heaven, maybe they'll be real quiet so you won't know they're there. BTW, one of those long lines that you'll probably see in heaven, will be those who were saved under his ministry. Wonder how long you're line will be?

Go Cards!

 

[squint]

I'm sure everything but what you believe sounds wrong. When the people from Joel's church get to heaven, maybe they'll be real quiet so you won't know they're there. BTW, one of those long lines that you'll probably see in heaven, will be those who were saved under his ministry. Wonder how long you're line will be?

I believe you have generally observed this prior, that we can look at the preaching of anyone and surely find fault and flaw. THAT part is EASY isn't it? And yes, much of same rather detestable in some cases.

I try not to forget Paul's admonishment here, which seems to indicate that Paul was OK with 'however' The Word was delivered:

Philippians 1:18
What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

I believe Paul made that statement KNOWING the Word in and of HIMself is entirely ABLE to produce the desired effects of THE WORD HIMself.

And in the light of that FACT can any of us complain? Yeah...but that doesn't mean the preaching of any is going to STOP and even if in PRETENCE The Word STILL works.

Pretence:
1. a false or unsupportable quality
2. an artful or simulated semblance
3. pretending with intention to deceive
4. imaginative intellectual play
5. the act of giving a false appearance

enjoy!

squint

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

I believe you have generally observed this prior, that we can look at the preaching of anyone and surely find fault and flaw. THAT part is EASY isn't it? And yes, much of same rather detestable in some cases.

I try not to forget Paul's admonishment here, which seems to indicate that Paul was OK with 'however' The Word was delivered:

Philippians 1:18
What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

I believe Paul made that statement KNOWING the Word in and of HIMself is entirely ABLE to produce the desired effects of THE WORD HIMself.

And in the light of that FACT can any of us complain? Yeah...but that doesn't mean the preaching of any is going to STOP and even if in PRETENCE The Word STILL works.

Pretence:
1. a false or unsupportable quality
2. an artful or simulated semblance
3. pretending with intention to deceive
4. imaginative intellectual play
5. the act of giving a false appearance

enjoy!

squint

You're absolutely right squint. Thanks for the reminder. Great vs. I think some of it has to do with what you've tried to show me several times about being able to condemn the sin we see in others without seeing it thouroughly mingled in our ownselves.

Go Cards!

 

[squint]

You're absolutely right squint. Thanks for the reminder. Great vs. I think some of it has to do with what you've tried to show me several times about being able to condemn the sin we see in others without seeing it thouroughly mingled in our ownselves.

Go Cards!

The Word is ASSUREDLY ALIVE in these matters. You know well enough by now that the sin indwelling our flesh does not equate to US as mankind being the SAME as that which we have been 'subjected' to. When we 'learn' this from the disclosures of The Living One that darkness tends to receed behind us 'all' in Gods Own Order.

Light was commanded by God to shine from the darkness from the beginning and SHINE He WILL.

enjoy!

squint

 

[simonthezealot]

Philippians 1:18
What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Pretence:
1. a false or unsupportable quality
2. an artful or simulated semblance
3. pretending with intention to deceive
4. imaginative intellectual play
5. the act of giving a false appearance

enjoy!

squint

e-sword says an outward showing, cloak, show...
Sounds to me like a preacher who is an unbeliever who actually may be preaching truth he learned, without actually believing it.

πρόφασις
prophasis
prof'-as-is
From a compound of G4253 and G5316; an outward showing, that is, pretext: - cloke, colour, pretence, show.

 

[Tonks]

I'm sure everything but what you believe sounds wrong. When the people from Joel's church get to heaven, maybe they'll be real quiet so you won't know they're there. BTW, one of those long lines that you'll probably see in heaven, will be those who were saved under his ministry. Wonder how long you're line will be?

Go Cards!

I never said a thing about the salvation - or lack thereof - of his congregation. That is not for me to judge and it is, frankly, a protestant preoccupation.

I was commenting on his abilities and knowledge as a preacher.

 

[squint]

e-sword says an outward showing, cloak, show...
Sounds to me like a preacher who is an unbeliever who actually may be preaching truth he learned, without actually believing it.

πρόφασις
prophasis
prof'-as-is
From a compound of G4253 and G5316; an outward showing, that is, pretext: - cloke, colour, pretence, show.

So what?

2 Cor. 11:
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

There is a very elementary and ABSOLUTELY TRUE principle at work in these events Simon, that Jesus TOLD US CLEARLY would happen, and this HAPPENS in part to ALL OF US whether we 'realize' it or not or whether we ACCEPT or ACKNOWLEDGE the facts of this matter. Paul tells us that THIS DOES HAPPEN.

Jesus tells us WHY it happens and 'the happening is UNavoidable:

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

This is A FACT for ALL of us. And it is A VERY HARD AND OFFENSIVE fact for US to swallow as INDIVIDUALS, but it is also a FACT that will produce INSTANT HUMBLENESS and GODFELT HEARTLY SORROW in us when swallowed.

We ALL understand ONLY IN PART so Jesus' statement MEANS that UNDERSTANDING NOT means IN PART. NONE of us currently have FULL and COMPLETE understanding.

And whether you can 'take it personal' or not does not mean a single whit. This is the reality that OUR LORD advised us ALL of and it DOES happen beyond any doubting.

enjoy!

squint