Isaiah 65:17-19 relates to the eternal state not some supposed future millennium

sovereigngrace said:

.. yea, and this is not one of them. You know it!

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sovereigngrace said:

Not so! This is classic Premil - forcing a text to say what it is not saying. Amil is built on safer ground. Amil is built upon corroboration. Multiple strong and repeated Scriptures on each tenet of that position proves that doctrine. Let us discuss some of the water-tight support Amil enjoys for its understanding of Rev 20.

Much Scripture proves that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Other Scripture shows the reigning of the dead in Christ now during the intra-Advent period (Revelation 20:4). See also Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, Revelation 6:9-10, 7:9-17, 15:1-3.

Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).

The wicked, to a man, are immediately destroyed, as in Noah and Lot’s day (Joel 2:1-3, Joel 2:10-11, Isaiah 13:6-12, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 3:12, Luke 17:27-30, I Thessalonians 5:2-4, II Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 2:5-9, Revelation 19:17-21).

There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).

Satan cast into the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 26:19, II Thessalonians 2:1-9 Revelation 20:10). This occurs before the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.

There is a climactic conflagration (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15).

Perfection arrives with the age to come (Luke 20:27-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Peter 3:3-13 Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Peter 4:3-7, Hebrews 1:10-12 and Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5).

The age to come possesses no mortals. The wicked are destroyed at His appearing (2 Samuel 22:9, Job 41:20-21, Psalm 18:7-8, 37:9-11, 50:1-6, 68:1-3, 97:3-5, Isaiah 11:4-5, 13:9, 30:33, 66:15-17, Joel 2:1-3, 2:10-11, Nahum 1:1, 5-6, Malachi 4:1, Luke 17:26-30, 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 13:8-13, 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10, Revelation 16:15-21, 19:11-18, Revelation 21-22).

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed.

This is a water-tight argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

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sovereigngrace said:

I rest my case. I presented strong overwhelming compelling NT second coming evidence.

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Jamdoc said:

To be fair, most premills kind of gloss over the idea of rebuilding, and some kinda do see it as a Thanos snap until you actually point out to them the state of the world after Armageddon.

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Timtofly said:

"Thanos snap" was the removal of half the population. It was not a removal of sin and death. Thanos is a play on the word Athanasios which is a form of athanasian interpreted immortality in 1 Corinthians 15:54.

Most do not seem to get the point that when Adam disobeyed God, sin and death were immediate. Why would God not remove sin and death immediately? Especially since most don't seem to think that sin was a punishment.

Do you think it took a thousand years for sin to get to full force? What does that even mean? As some here claim Adam was already a sinner, and sin was already present on earth, before Adam even disobeyed God. Which directly contradicts Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Sin did not enter until Adam disobeyed, as a result, ie punishment on creation groaning under the bondage of sin. That happened in an instant. God can reverse this condition in an instant. Daniel 9:24

"To finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness."

Some think it has taken God almost 2,000 years to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, and bring in everlasting righteousness. Because creation still groans under this bondage of sin, and death. Others seem to think it will take another thousand years after the Second Coming to get it right.

Creation only took 144 hours. Why would it take more than an instant for God to accomplish His will?

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Jamdoc said:

I was just referring to the idea that Thanos snapped his fingers and a massive change happened all over the universe instantly. That's not how the bible plays these things out. Not when even a day for the Lord is a much longer time period for us, roughly 1000 years.

But it's how many people see things.
they see Jesus coming back, Thanos snap, instant judgement for everyone and an instant perfect world.

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Timtofly said:

That is because most don't place the Second Coming at the right point in Revelation. They have their interpretation tied to a erroneous time line.

Zechariah 14 explains that God drastically changes the geography in a relatively short time, and it is not by snapping a finger. 2 Peter 3:10 shows all the works of man are burned up which could take several hours, like it did for the earth to be covered in water in Noah's day. So making the earth new will be a process.


But the removal of sin and death will be instant. So I don't see people cleaning up per Isaiah 65. They are building and filling up the earth for that thousand years until the earth is subdued per Genesis 1:28.

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

This is what Paul was echoing in 1 Corinthians 15:25-27

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him."

Isaiah 65 is still talking about death. It also states the former things have passed away.

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy."

No one will be cleaning up after the trouble of the Second Coming and subsequent tribulation and even Satan's abomination of desolation. Because when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, no one will remember anything prior to that point. All the old world of sin and death will be wiped from their memory.

But Paul said death will be the last enemy. So disobedience will still result in death, but unlike being born into sin and death. There is a distinction, but no one seems to get that distinction.

According to Genesis, in the first 3 chapters there was no sin nor death, nor even the knowledge of good and evil. Everything was perfect, without sin and death. Not even a seed fell to the ground and "died" causing new growth to spring up. In Isaiah 65 planting is still going to happen, so seeds are going to die, to spring forth. So death is still a thing, but not the bondage of sin and decay.

"And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them."

Nothing will die in vain, but will produce long lasting growth. People will not move around over and over. But people will spread out each generation and subdue more of the earth for dozens of generations. The last few generations seeing a population boom, like never seen in the history of mankind.

Amil have to interpret Isaiah 65 symbolically, ruling out any physical death from disobedience. Because the NHNE of Revelation 21 will not have death at all. How that works is as foreign to some as the total absence of sin and death in Genesis 1 and 2 prior to Adam's, and only Adam's disobedience. Eve did not disobey God. Adam did.

"For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

That points out Eve was deceived into Satan's rebellion, but Adam was the one who deliberately disobeyed God. So in the Day of the Lord, which Isaiah 65 is referring to, one can still deliberately disobey, and will physically die. They will more than likely be placed in death, or the LOF. There will be no redemption for them. Because the natural tendency will be to obey, as no one has a sin nature, nor will they physically decay and grow old or get sick. This form of death will then be removed prior to the NHNE, as the last "enemy", a symbolic term.

We currently think of death as the grave or lack of physicality, waiting for a resurrection. In Revelation there is a distinction between death and sheol. There is a death with no redemption nor resurrection, seperate from sheol. Those with the mark have death without redemption. Those beheaded have a physical death with redemption, two forms of death. One permanent, one temporary.

The temporary death with redemption stops at the start of the Day of the Lord, because those beheaded are given the first resurrection, to never die again, nor can they disobey God. Only their offspring can during the millennium, because the first resurrection prevents them from disobedience and the second death. Just like those currently in heaven, cannot disobey God. But the permanent death introduced in Revelation 6, the 4th Seal, cannot be changed. That death is permanent without redemption. Sheol will not receive any souls during the Day of the Lord, but Death will, and that is the final enemy, because that fire from heaven that consumes those deceieved by Satan, is that death that is the last enemy.

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hal4x said:

John 5 jesus said there's coming an hour when all who are in graves will here his voice and some willrise to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt. Daniel 12 says same thing. John 6 jesus said 4 times (so he's driving home a point) he will raise up believers on the LAST DAY!!!. SO when we read in 1 thessalonians 4 that the DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE (resurrection) that would be the LAST DAY because Jesus said so. Do you see what not mentioned? A 7 year tribulation or a thousand year millennium. To make a pre mid or post tribulation rapture a reality you must do scriptural gymnastics to make it happen

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Jamdoc said:

A day with the Lord is like 1000 years...

so yes, that last period of time described as 1000 years.. is the last day.

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hal4x said:

That metaphorical quote from 1 peter isn't talking about a little time frame but about how perfect God keeps his promises. When we see a phrase like a thousand ( Not 1000) and not 987 0r 786 etc we let scripture interpret itself otherwise we will get it wrong a thousand times pardon the pun. God owns the cattle on A THOUSAND hills. But scripture says he owns all the cattle and the hills too. I hope I made my point clear. The last day is last day of time since a day is time related

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1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.
6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.
7 For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled.
8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.
9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.

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Jamdoc said:

2 Peter
and it's referring to Psalm 90
which I believe references to the fact that God said Adam would die and return to dust in the day he ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil... and lived 930 years. So under 1000 years.
What that concept says is that God does not track time the same way we do. God doesn't lie, so Adam living 930 years doesn't defy God's pronouncement that he would return to dust in the same day he ate of the tree. It's just in the same day as God sees it, not the way we see days.

so, if believers are resurrected 1000 years prior to unbelivers, it is still resurrecting on the last day, as God sees it.


Our entire lifespan is the blink of an eye to God, nearly meaningless. It says that His wrath is not long against us, even though it is years as we experience it, it is to God, momentary.

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hal4x said:

Days nights weeks months years were created for us. God lives outside of time. If you don't let scripture interpret itself you become the interpreter which is subjective. Example of another "a thousand" God's mercy is for "a thousand "generations. So if I not scripture interpret this here's what it looks like. Based on matthew from abraham to christ is 42 generations so let's say from adam to abraham was say 100 more generations I'm high balling of corse this brings us to 142 generations and front chrust to today ill high ball again and add 158 more gerations leaving us with 300. So in 700 generations God mercy stops say a generation is 50 years so in 35000 years it's all over. Noone on planet earth believed jesus will come back in 35000 yrs. Scripture interpret Scripture not us is the hermeneutic

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hal4x said:

Judgement is last day

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