SALVATION: Old Testament vs New Testament

Arsenios

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I do not believe anyone obeys all of Christs literal commands. If anyone says they perfectly obey them, I would give them the benefit of the doubt, in respect of them not understanding what would be fully entailed for complete obedience to them

Nobody said anything about perfect obedience to a long list of commands...
You seem to have erected a straw-man here, methinks...
Obedience to Christ is obedience to the Person of Christ...
All other obedience is unto that particular one...
To be of one Will with God...
Bringing our own will into utter subjection...
To the Will of our Lord...

O mean, you are right - There is no list of a thousand commandments of Christ that all Christians are to obey perfectly or go to hell... Nobody has said that... Nobody will...

Ya don't need no stinkin' flame-thrower [ever fired one??:)] to burn that straw... Just a li'l ol' strike-anywhere will touch it off!

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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"Lifted up" here refers to Christ in the flesh, plain and simple...
Both "stations" [human and Divine] well within His enhypostatic domain...

Arsenios

To be resurrected implies a body of some sort.
The glorified resurrected body is indestructible.

Thank-you - I submit to you that it means what being a human being was originally intended to be...

We are not taking a 'fleshly' body sown in corruption, but a glorified body sown in power, one that can not be corrupted.

Yup...

So.... How do we git on o' dese here bodies?

Paul says in Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


This means that one's actions according to the flesh cannot please God...

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

And this means that IF you life in the Spirit, your actions ARE pleasing to God... Because you have crushed worldly self will and embraced only God's will as the motivator of your actions...


10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


Here, he explains that because of the sin inherent in our fallen flesh, we have been Baptized into Christ's death and put our bodily members to death so that we are no longer motivated by them... Yet even in this state of being dead in and to the world, the Spirit is still Life, because we obey the Holy Spirit within, and such obedience to God is right relationship with Him - Right relationship with God is Righteousness, and that relationship is obedience to God attained by the voluntary crucifixion of our own carnal self will...

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


This means much the same as 10 - That the death you impose on your fleshly bodily members will be supplanted by the Life of the Spirit of Him Who raised Jesus from the dead... So you will not die bodily by mortifying your flesh...

Paul means those who are mere natural men in their flesh, having no spiritual life, since they are spiritually not alive can not please God.
Saved persons born of God are 'not in the flesh.' They are of the Spirit of God having the eternal life, with God as their Father and so they then are taking on the same characteristics of God and Christ, God is transforming them into the image of Christ.
God's promise is that we will be like His Son.

This is a popular western misconception of this pericope...

Arsenios
 
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EmSw

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I have already explained about Elijah, I did not ignore it!

Christ stated

No one has ever entered heaven, except the one who came from heaven, the son of man.

Now you can twist scripture to make it say whatever you want, people do, but That verse is very plain.

No one has ever entered heaven, but Christ

stuart, you seem to use this 'lone' passage to press your beliefs. Did you not say the following:

Forgive me, but you quote the letter of one or two verses to support your view a person must be baptised in water to receive salvation, and cannot understand why everyone doesn't believe it.

Are you not doing what you accuse others of doing?
 
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Arsenios

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You seem to be fixated with either a certain denomination, or one or two denominations. I used to be fixated with one particular denomination, but now am not!

Forgive me - I simply speak from the pre-denominational Church perspective, that of Christ's Ekklesia of Antioch, where the followers of Christ were first called Christians... I do not go outside the Body of Christ for directions, true enough...

Forgive me, but you quote the letter of one or two verses to support your view a person must be baptised in water to receive salvation, and cannot understand why everyone doesn't believe it.

I simply show that Scripture tells us that we are baptized into Christ, as Peter baptized Cornelius, Ananias baptized Paul, and Philip baptized Candace's Ethopian eunuch... And that this Baptism gives remission of sins, and the Holy Spirit... Few will believe it because the west has lost Baptism, and is instead relying on personal experience of the Holy Spirit, thinking that such is Baptism...

What's a girl to do??

IF the infilling of the Holy Spirit were Baptism, then WHY oh WHY did Peter then baptize Cornelius in water???

Orphans struggle to understand motherhood...

Yet Jeremiah, when prophecying directly in relation to the new covenant states God will write his laws on the minds of the people under it and place them on their hearts.

He does not say HOW He will write His Laws into their hearts...
You seem to think that it is an implantation by a spirit...

He starts his prophecy by saying:
The time is coming( it I not there yet) when I will make a NEW covenant..... I only know of one new covenant.
The writer of Hebrews, confirms this. In the first fourteen verses of chapter ten he is speaking of sacrifices for sin under the old covenant and Christs sacrifice under the new covenant. He then goes on to say:
The holy spirit also testifies about this( what he has previously been mentioning)
This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the Lord
I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
And where these have been forgiven sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary
Heb 10:15-18

This I very plainly written in the bible concerning the new covenant. The writer of Hebrews quotes the prophecy from Jeremiah. Yet you tell me i am the only person you know who believes the law is written on the mind and placed on the heart of people under the new covenant. And you seem incredulous I would believe it. You also say the law is not written on your mind or placed on your heart.
I don't mean this unkindly. But where I the consistency?

I will put my laws into their hearts,
and in their minds will I write them;

They are placed in their hearts by Christ in the discipling of the nations, of those for whom their response to the Gospel is obedience to its command to be repenting, where Paul tells us to "obey those having the Rule over you" - This is how they become INTERNALIZED... The Bible does NOT say we are to wait for an experience with the Holy Spirit to have such laws implanted in our hearts and written in our minds... This Faith of Christ is DISCIPLED, my Brother... It is discipled IN the Apostolic Churches of Christ... Christ's BODY on earth IS this Communion of Churches... Christ asked Saul, who had seen to the martyring of Phillip, why Saul was persecuting Christ, and not why he saw to the killing of Stephen...

The writing upon the heart and in the mind, iow, is by obedience, and one grows in the Faith across time, in long-suffering and patience, God working invisibly within us as we walk the talk of the Faith of Christ...

fwiw, I cannot discern the source of your vision in which the law was written in your heart by a spiritual event... But what I CAN tell you, for a fact, is that the event you described is NOT a common e onamong Christians... It seems specifically tailored to your condition at the time it happened, and whatever the source, God permitted it to occur... It is not a Scripturally mandated event in Christian lives, just because God is recorded saying "I will write My Laws in their hearts..."

I assume your church does not preach, or teach this. Yet it is, the core foundation on which the new covenant stands. For these two things are solely mentioned in Hebrews ch10.

We disciple union with Christ in Spirit and in Truth...
We disciple Christ Crucified and us following Christ...
We disciple self-denial and love...
We disciple the penitent's preparation for encountering God...
And what to do when that should happen...
For 2000 years now, and counting...
That discipling is what the quote you cite is about:

I will put my laws into their hearts,
and in their minds will I write them;


This is done by discipling the faithful...
The Elders discipling the youngers...

And God is the Agent of those actions...

It is not only your denomination that doesn't preach it of course, sadly I have never heard a sermon on these verses either in any church I have been to.

Well, your interpretation is not that of the Church at Antioch... Nor any other Apostolic Church of which I am aware... And to quote you, one should not place all one's eggs in a single basket... Or there-abouts!

Arsenios
 
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stuart lawrence

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NO ONE has ever entered heaven,
except the one who came down f
rom heaven,
the son of man
[john 3:13]

So Paul went to the third heaven to which no OT Saint had gone?
Assuming you are right, and ignoring Moses and Elijah for the moment...
HOW could Paul ascend to where ONLY the Son of Man COULD???

Arsenios
Did Paul ascend to where only the son of man did? That would be to.assume the third heaven is the one true heaven where God dwells
 
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stuart lawrence

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Exactly on topic...

I happen to think that the OT Prophets were far more righteous than most of those of the New... Yet, either more or less, what is it in the New Covenant that we have that we did not have under the Old?

And how is it acquired?

Arsenios
stuart, you seem to use this 'lone' passage to press your beliefs. Did you not say the following:

Forgive me, but you quote the letter of one or two verses to support your view a person must be baptised in water to receive salvation, and cannot understand why everyone doesn't believe it.

Are you not doing what you accuse others of doing?
No, didn't you read my other post quoting Paul from colossians and john from revelation?
I can give you a host of other scripture I you like:

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will RAISE HIM UP ON THE LAST DAY john 6:54

There is only one last day, and if you are raised up on it you are not already I heaven.
Would you believe people in the OT died and went straight to heaven, while christians must wait until the last day?
Martha knew:
I know he will rise again, in the resurrection, AT THE LAST DAY john 11:24
They were all commended for their faith, yet NONE of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together WITH US would they be made perfect heb 11:39&40
The list the writer is speaking of includes:
Enoch, Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Samuel and the prophets.
How are we made perfect according to the writer of Hebrews?
For by one sacrifice he made forever PERFECT, those who are being made holy heb 10:14.
The imperfect cannot enter heaven
 
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stuart lawrence

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Forgive me - I simply speak from the pre-denominational Church perspective, that of Christ's Ekklesia of Antioch, where the followers of Christ were first called Christians... I do not go outside the Body of Christ for directions, true enough...



I simply show that Scripture tells us that we are baptized into Christ, as Peter baptized Cornelius, Ananias baptized Paul, and Philip baptized Candace's Ethopian eunuch... And that this Baptism gives remission of sins, and the Holy Spirit... Few will believe it because the west has lost Baptism, and is instead relying on personal experience of the Holy Spirit, thinking that such is Baptism...

What's a girl to do??

IF the infilling of the Holy Spirit were Baptism, then WHY oh WHY did Peter then baptize Cornelius in water???

Orphans struggle to understand motherhood...



He does not say HOW He will write His Laws into their hearts...
You seem to think that it is an implantation by a spirit...



I will put my laws into their hearts,
and in their minds will I write them;

They are placed in their hearts by Christ in the discipling of the nations, of those for whom their response to the Gospel is obedience to its command to be repenting, where Paul tells us to "obey those having the Rule over you" - This is how they become INTERNALIZED... The Bible does NOT say we are to wait for an experience with the Holy Spirit to have such laws implanted in our hearts and written in our minds... This Faith of Christ is DISCIPLED, my Brother... It is discipled IN the Apostolic Churches of Christ... Christ's BODY on earth IS this Communion of Churches... Christ asked Saul, who had seen to the martyring of Phillip, why Saul was persecuting Christ, and not why he saw to the killing of Stephen...

The writing upon the heart and in the mind, iow, is by obedience, and one grows in the Faith across time, in long-suffering and patience, God working invisibly within us as we walk the talk of the Faith of Christ...

fwiw, I cannot discern the source of your vision in which the law was written in your heart by a spiritual event... But what I CAN tell you, for a fact, is that the event you described is NOT a common e onamong Christians... It seems specifically tailored to your condition at the time it happened, and whatever the source, God permitted it to occur... It is not a Scripturally mandated event in Christian lives, just because God is recorded saying "I will write My Laws in their hearts..."



We disciple union with Christ in Spirit and in Truth...
We disciple Christ Crucified and us following Christ...
We disciple self-denial and love...
We disciple the penitent's preparation for encountering God...
And what to do when that should happen...
For 2000 years now, and counting...
That discipling is what the quote you cite is about:

I will put my laws into their hearts,
and in their minds will I write them;


This is done by discipling the faithful...
The Elders discipling the youngers...

And God is the Agent of those actions...



Well, your interpretation is not that of the Church at Antioch... Nor any other Apostolic Church of which I am aware... And to quote you, one should not place all one's eggs in a single basket... Or there-abouts!

Arsenios
John the Baptist said he baptised with water, but Christ would baptise with the holy spirit, two different things
Nowhere is it stated in scripture the law is written on your mind and placed on your heart gradually as you learn from church teaching. You only get your sins and lawless deeds remembered no more because the law has been placed within you. The two are inextricably linked and spiritually discerned.
Then he adds....
If you are right the christian most certainly has a licence to sin. They have a saviour from their sin while they initially only know/ are aware of part of the law, and then only gradually learn it. I'm sorry, but that is very wrong.
God did not create a covenant that gave wiggle room to have an excuse to sin
God created the new covenant, not church denominations, and part of that covenant is placing the law on your heart and mind.
Who us the true Antioch church?
The one that stands on scripture. Line of succession does not make any church the one true church. Beliefs change, things get added on( purgatory for example) other things are neglected. You end up with a diluted/ changed message.
Where in scripture does it say the Pentecost experience as described in acts 2 will cease before the return of Christ? Where in scripture does it state the gifts of the holy spirit as Paul mentioned in 1 cor 12&14 will cease before the return of Christ?
 
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stuart lawrence

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Forgive me - I simply speak from the pre-denominational Church perspective, that of Christ's Ekklesia of Antioch, where the followers of Christ were first called Christians... I do not go outside the Body of Christ for directions, true enough...



I simply show that Scripture tells us that we are baptized into Christ, as Peter baptized Cornelius, Ananias baptized Paul, and Philip baptized Candace's Ethopian eunuch... And that this Baptism gives remission of sins, and the Holy Spirit... Few will believe it because the west has lost Baptism, and is instead relying on personal experience of the Holy Spirit, thinking that such is Baptism...

What's a girl to do??

IF the infilling of the Holy Spirit were Baptism, then WHY oh WHY did Peter then baptize Cornelius in water???

Orphans struggle to understand motherhood...



He does not say HOW He will write His Laws into their hearts...
You seem to think that it is an implantation by a spirit...



I will put my laws into their hearts,
and in their minds will I write them;

They are placed in their hearts by Christ in the discipling of the nations, of those for whom their response to the Gospel is obedience to its command to be repenting, where Paul tells us to "obey those having the Rule over you" - This is how they become INTERNALIZED... The Bible does NOT say we are to wait for an experience with the Holy Spirit to have such laws implanted in our hearts and written in our minds... This Faith of Christ is DISCIPLED, my Brother... It is discipled IN the Apostolic Churches of Christ... Christ's BODY on earth IS this Communion of Churches... Christ asked Saul, who had seen to the martyring of Phillip, why Saul was persecuting Christ, and not why he saw to the killing of Stephen...

The writing upon the heart and in the mind, iow, is by obedience, and one grows in the Faith across time, in long-suffering and patience, God working invisibly within us as we walk the talk of the Faith of Christ...

fwiw, I cannot discern the source of your vision in which the law was written in your heart by a spiritual event... But what I CAN tell you, for a fact, is that the event you described is NOT a common e onamong Christians... It seems specifically tailored to your condition at the time it happened, and whatever the source, God permitted it to occur... It is not a Scripturally mandated event in Christian lives, just because God is recorded saying "I will write My Laws in their hearts..."



We disciple union with Christ in Spirit and in Truth...
We disciple Christ Crucified and us following Christ...
We disciple self-denial and love...
We disciple the penitent's preparation for encountering God...
And what to do when that should happen...
For 2000 years now, and counting...
That discipling is what the quote you cite is about:

I will put my laws into their hearts,
and in their minds will I write them;


This is done by discipling the faithful...
The Elders discipling the youngers...

And God is the Agent of those actions...



Well, your interpretation is not that of the Church at Antioch... Nor any other Apostolic Church of which I am aware... And to quote you, one should not place all one's eggs in a single basket... Or there-abouts!

Arsenios
I WILL give you a new heart and put a new spirit I you. I WILL remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart if flesh. And I WILL put my spirit in you and MOVE you to follow my decrees and obey my laws Ezekiel 36:26&27

It is what God does through the spirit, not what the church does.
If the law is on your heart, you are moved I your heart to want to obey it.
Paul says the law on tablets of stone is now on tablets of human hearts(2cor3:3) Do you believe Christians only realise/ are made aware God doesn't want them to bear false witness, murder, steal, covet, commit adultery, take the Lords name in vain etc, over a period of time as the church instructs them? And only then do they in their heart want to obey God in these matters?
I don't put all my eggs in one basket, but from where did you get any egg to put in your basket concerning this subject?
I have never before known any christian, once made aware of the prophecy in Jeremiah 31, repeated in heb chs 8&10 who doesn't accept God writes the law on the mind and places it on the heart of the believer. You are the first person I have known state this happens gradually over time as the church instructs believers.
And you say you have never met anyone who believes as I do on this subject.
We do come from very opposite ends of the spectrum so to speak don't we
 
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stuart lawrence

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Exactly on topic...

I happen to think that the OT Prophets were far more righteous than most of those of the New... Yet, either more or less, what is it in the New Covenant that we have that we did not have under the Old?

And how is it acquired?

Arsenios
What is a truer righteousness, faith in Christ or observing the law?

A couple of days ago I responded to your question in a previous post.
However:

And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, this will be our righteousness deut 6:25

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, for everyone who believeth
Rom10:4

Is that a licence to sin?

No! Because:
I will write my laws.........
 
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stuart lawrence

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stuart, you seem to use this 'lone' passage to press your beliefs. Did you not say the following:

Forgive me, but you quote the letter of one or two verses to support your view a person must be baptised in water to receive salvation, and cannot understand why everyone doesn't believe it.

Are you not doing what you accuse others of doing?

You asked me the other day if the Christian had a licence to be lawless under the new covenant according to words of Paul I quoted. I cannot do your question justice by simply repeating the same old words hurriedly, and therefore at times in a slapdash way.
I could give you a more detailed reply of the application of grace, but as I doubt you would accept it, I will just respond with the basic nuts and bolts as it were:


Now you may be wondering why people cannot act however they like if they do not have to be good enough for God. For if their salvation hinges on faith, and not being good enough under the law, surely they can do whatever they want without a care in the world. People should be free to rob a bank, for instance, and not worry about it, for they are righteous in God’s sight by faith, and that has no bearing on how they live out their lives, correct?

Well to answer this important point, I would like to draw your attention to a huge difference between the Old Covenant that existed before Christ died on the cross, and the New Covenant that followed. The writer of Hebrews states in the tenth chapter and the sixteenth and seventeenth verses: “‘This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts and I will write them on their minds.’ Then He adds: ‘Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’” (NIV)

Now what does it mean to put God’s laws in the hearts and write them on the minds of new converts? Well, I like the way the Living Bible puts verse sixteen: “‘I will write My laws into their minds so that they will always know My will, and I will put My laws in their hearts so that they will want to obey them.’”

It means, therefore, converts will want to obey the good and holy laws of God in their hearts. Now this does not mean a long list of laws will flash before their eyes every waking minute of their lives. No. It means that in their minds they instinctively know how God wants them to live, and in their hearts they want to live as God desires. They no longer seek a life of sin, but a life in line with God’s will. They have in this sense been born again. That is what Jesus told Nicodemus must happen the night he came to see Him in John 3:3: “‘Very truly I tell you No one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.’” (NIV)

New converts are changed by the Holy Spirit who has entered their lives. He lives in them, and their conscience will now bear witness to wrong things in their lives in a way it did not before. This is an amazing thing God does for those who come to His Son. No man could

bring about such a change in himself − only God could − and it is a provision He makes for all those who accept His Son as their Lord and Saviour.

You see, the Israelites in the Old Testament had the written law – the laws they were to follow to live as God desired. God gave that law to them at Mt. Sinai. The most famous of these laws were the Ten Commandments, though God gave many other laws, as well. Most of the time, however, those written laws stood against the Israelites because in their hearts they didn’t want to follow God. They almost mechanically strove to obey because the law was not written on their hearts. They thought they would be all right if they simply followed certain rules, regulations, and ceremonies. It is the heart that matters most to God, however, and their hearts were far away from Him most of the time, whereas those who are born again under the New Covenant want in their hearts to obey God.

God told Moses the Israelites were a stiff-necked people who would soon desert Him once they reached the Promised Land. Their history as a nation records that most of the time they turned away from God, got into a mess, and found themselves in dire situations. Then they repented of their wrongs and asked for God’s help, and He forgave them and got them out of the messes they were in. This was a cycle they repeated over and over again. It wasn’t always like this, but the vast majority of the time it was. So you see, having the written law didn’t in itself help them, because their hearts were far from God most of the time.

But that was the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, which reigns supreme today, God has softened our hearts by putting the desire to obey Him within us. The prophet Ezekiel wrote of this hundreds of years before Christ died on the cross. He says in the thirty-sixth chapter of his book and the twenty-sixth and twenty-seventh verses: “‘I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.’” (NIV)

God says “I will” three times in the above verse. You see, friend, it is what God does for us. He will give us new hearts. He will remove our hearts of stone and give us hearts of flesh. He will put his Spirit within us and move us to want to obey His laws. God will do these things for all those who accept His Son as their Saviour.

So not only do we have a totally free salvation, but when we come to God through His Son, God changes us into people who want to please and obey Him in our hearts. Now anyone who wants to obey God in his or her heart cannot at the same time wilfully − without conscience − seek to disobey Him, correct? Such a thing is not possible.

Now when you are born again something significant happens. You become aware of your sin before God for the first time in your life. In order for us to understand why this is so, we need to understand what sin actually is. The disciple John tells us in 1 John 3:4, “Sin is the transgression of the law.” (KJV)

So we see the definition of sin. It is breaking the law of God. The Apostle Paul states in Romans 3:20, “Through the law we become conscious of our sin.” (NIV)

You see, friend, only when you are conscious of God’s laws can you be conscious of your shortfall of obedience to those laws, and your shortfall of obedience is your sin. For sin is breaking the law of God. Before you become a Christian, you sin in ignorance of the fact that you are sinning. Once you become a Christian, however, the spotlight has been turned on. Through the knowledge of God’s laws placed on our hearts and written on our minds, therefore, we have knowledge in our hearts of how far short we fall in obedience to God’s laws. At that point, we have a heartfelt conviction of our sin.

Now we have looked at what it means to be born again. Let us now look at the second core component of the New Covenant the Christian is under, which is found in verse seventeen: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’” So under the terms of the New Covenant, a person’s sins (which are lawless acts) will be remembered no more. We know this is true, of course, because Jesus died for our sins at Calvary.

At the very moment you accept Christ as your Saviour, therefore, the Holy Spirit places the law God wants you to keep on your heart and writes it on your mind. You are born again. This results in you desiring in your heart to live as God wants you to. Because that is what you want, Jesus is an atonement for your sin.

You see, friend, God is not stupid. He had it all figured out. He did not create a covenant whereby those who know they have a righteousness before Him apart from the law would then use that knowledge as a licence to sin. He created a covenant whereby He places the desire to obey Him in the hearts of those who accept His Son as their Saviour. Because that is what they want, He will remember their sins no more. So we see the two foundational principles of the New Covenant are inextricably linked. God changes us into people who want to obey, and because we do, Christ paid the penalty of our sin.

You see, there is what we can term an “unbridgeable gap” that will be reflected in our lives. That gap is the difference between the perfect demands of God’s good and holy laws and our obedience to them. Now as I have met no one who has claimed to be perfect in his or her flesh, I have met no one who has ever claimed to obey God’s laws perfectly. We all fall short, every one of us. Thus we can say, “Christ died to bridge the unbridgeable gap.” The more we follow the true path of the Gospel message, the narrower the gap becomes. A gap, however, will always remain, friend, for you will never be perfect in your flesh.

I would once again place before you the basis of the covenant the Christian is under, friend, for it is something we need to fully appreciate to move forward in the Christian faith. So once again, here Hebrews 10:16-17: “‘This is the covenant I will make with them after that time declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts and write them on their minds.’ Then He adds: ‘Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’” (NIV)
 
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sdowney717

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Did Paul ascend to where only the son of man did? That would be to.assume the third heaven is the one true heaven where God dwells

Heaven is our true home where God is. Wherever God and Christ are so we will also be.
Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

2 Corinthians 5:1
[ Assurance of the Resurrection ] For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Philippians 3:20
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

What citizen of a country is denied entry to dwell there?
Christians are no criminals, we are welcomed in heaven accepted in the beloved, made to sit in heavenly places as Ephesians says.
 
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Arsenios

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Did Paul ascend to where only the son of man did? That would be to.assume the third heaven is the one true heaven where God dwells

In my book, that would be vain speculation on my part to render an opinion...
BECAUSE...
I cannot find the term "The One True Heaven where God dwells" anywhere in scripture or in the Patristic literature...

We know that we can gaze upon the first heaven with our physical eyes... The sky...
And the second would seem to be the earthly forces which we cannot see... Angelic and demonic...
And the third would then seem to be above these...

And of the third, we cannot speak, following Paul...

Arsenios

Christ is Risen!
Today is Holy Pascha!
 
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stuart lawrence

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In my book, that would be vain speculation on my part to render an opinion...
BECAUSE...
I cannot find the term "The One True Heaven where God dwells" anywhere in scripture or in the Patristic literature...

We know that we can gaze upon the first heaven with our physical eyes... The sky...
And the second would seem to be the earthly forces which we cannot see... Angelic and demonic...
And the third would then seem to be above these...

And of the third, we cannot speak, following Paul...

Arsenios
In my book, that would be vain speculation on my part to render an opinion...
BECAUSE...
I cannot find the term "The One True Heaven where God dwells" anywhere in scripture or in the Patristic literature...

We know that we can gaze upon the first heaven with our physical eyes... The sky...
And the second would seem to be the earthly forces which we cannot see... Angelic and demonic...
And the third would then seem to be above these...

And of the third, we cannot speak, following Paul...

Arsenios
Then if we cannot speculate we cannot say Paul went to the true Heaven where God dwells.
However, the following I not speculation:

Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are hymenaus and philetus who have wandered from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
2 Tim 2:17&18
 
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Arsenios

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What is a truer righteousness,
faith in Christ
or
observing the law?

Repentance unto entry into Christ's Holy Body...

However:
And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, this will be our righteousness deut 6:25

It is righteousness because God gave the Law they obeyed...

What did David DO with the Law? This the David who was a man after God's Own Heart?
He made the Law his constant meditation... He became "above his teachers" because he constantly meditated on the Law night and day... His self-imposed discipleship under the Law came from him INTERNALIZING the Law of Moses... And in this effort, he fully acquired the Holy Spirit, to the point of seeing in visions the coming of Christ and foretelling His Incarnation and his death on the cross...

So by MY standards, this is the Righteousness of God in David - He had the Holy Spirit fully to the point of becoming a Prophet of God Most High... Yes, he later fell to temptation and murder... But no one can say he was not a Holy man of God...

Righteousness, you see, is RIGHT RELATIONSHIP with God...

How was David lacking anything?

I mean, YOU are not righteous enough to prophesy future events in the Spirit...

And I sure as tootin' am not...

OT Prophets are WAY more righteous than you and I will ever be, yes?

And here comes Paul: (your quote)

"Christ is the end of the Law unto righteousness, for everyone who is believing..."
Rom 10:4

Notice here in Paul that he is affirming the Law as being UNTO Righteousness...
AND
That Christ is the GOAL of the Law, its DESTINATION...

Is that a license to sin?

That is a silly question...

The right question is, if Christ is the destination of the Law, then HOW do we acquire Christ apart from the Law, and what IS that acquisition... Because we are no longer under the Law that has Christ as its telos, or end - eg destination...

And back to David, what did Paul have that David was lacking that enabled Paul to ascend to the third heaven, and left David lusting after another man's naked wife?

Arsenios
 
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stuart lawrence

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Repentance unto entry into Christ's Holy Body...



It is righteousness because God gave the Law they obeyed...

What did David DO with the Law? This the David who was a man after God's Own Heart?
He made the Law his constant meditation... He became "above his teachers" because he constantly meditated on the Law night and day... His self-imposed discipleship under the Law came from him INTERNALIZING the Law of Moses... And in this effort, he fully acquired the Holy Spirit, to the point of seeing in visions the coming of Christ and foretelling His Incarnation and his death on the cross...

So by MY standards, this is the Righteousness of God in David - He had the Holy Spirit fully to the point of becoming a Prophet of God Most High... Yes, he later fell to temptation and murder... But no one can say he was not a Holy man of God...

Righteousness, you see, is RIGHT RELATIONSHIP with God...

How was David lacking anything?

I mean, YOU are not righteous enough to prophesy future events in the Spirit...

And I sure as tootin' am not...

OT Prophets are WAY more righteous than you and I will ever be, yes?

And here comes Paul: (your quote)



Notice here in Paul that he is affirming the Law as being UNTO Righteousness...
AND
That Christ is the GOAL of the Law, its DESTINATION...



That is a silly question...

The right question is, if Christ is the destination of the Law, then HOW do we acquire Christ apart from the Law, and what IS that acquisition... Because we are no longer under the Law that has Christ as its telos, or end - eg destination...

And back to David, what did Paul have that David was lacking that enabled Paul to ascend to the third heaven, and left David lusting after another man's naked wife?

Arsenios[/
Repentance unto entry into Christ's Holy Body...



It is righteousness because God gave the Law they obeyed...

What did David DO with the Law? This the David who was a man after God's Own Heart?
He made the Law his constant meditation... He became "above his teachers" because he constantly meditated on the Law night and day... His self-imposed discipleship under the Law came from him INTERNALIZING the Law of Moses... And in this effort, he fully acquired the Holy Spirit, to the point of seeing in visions the coming of Christ and foretelling His Incarnation and his death on the cross...

So by MY standards, this is the Righteousness of God in David - He had the Holy Spirit fully to the point of becoming a Prophet of God Most High... Yes, he later fell to temptation and murder... But no one can say he was not a Holy man of God...

Righteousness, you see, is RIGHT RELATIONSHIP with God...

How was David lacking anything?

I mean, YOU are not righteous enough to prophesy future events in the Spirit...

And I sure as tootin' am not...

OT Prophets are WAY more righteous than you and I will ever be, yes?

And here comes Paul: (your quote)



Notice here in Paul that he is affirming the Law as being UNTO Righteousness...
AND
That Christ is the GOAL of the Law, its DESTINATION...



That is a silly question...

The right question is, if Christ is the destination of the Law, then HOW do we acquire Christ apart from the Law, and what IS that acquisition... Because we are no longer under the Law that has Christ as its telos, or end - eg destination...

And back to David, what did Paul have that David was lacking that enabled Paul to ascend to the third heaven, and left David lusting after another man's naked wife?

Arsenios

Repentance unto entry into Christ's Holy Body...



It is righteousness because God gave the Law they obeyed...

What did David DO with the Law? This the David who was a man after God's Own Heart?
He made the Law his constant meditation... He became "above his teachers" because he constantly meditated on the Law night and day... His self-imposed discipleship under the Law came from him INTERNALIZING the Law of Moses... And in this effort, he fully acquired the Holy Spirit, to the point of seeing in visions the coming of Christ and foretelling His Incarnation and his death on the cross...

So by MY standards, this is the Righteousness of God in David - He had the Holy Spirit fully to the point of becoming a Prophet of God Most High... Yes, he later fell to temptation and murder... But no one can say he was not a Holy man of God...

Righteousness, you see, is RIGHT RELATIONSHIP with God...

How was David lacking anything?

I mean, YOU are not righteous enough to prophesy future events in the Spirit...

And I sure as tootin' am not...

OT Prophets are WAY more righteous than you and I will ever be, yes?

And here comes Paul: (your quote)



Notice here in Paul that he is affirming the Law as being UNTO Righteousness...
AND
That Christ is the GOAL of the Law, its DESTINATION...



That is a silly question...

The right question is, if Christ is the destination of the Law, then HOW do we acquire Christ apart from the Law, and what IS that acquisition... Because we are no longer under the Law that has Christ as its telos, or end - eg destination...

And back to David, what did Paul have that David was lacking that enabled Paul to ascend to the third heaven, and left David lusting after another man's naked wife?

Arsenios
David didn't have the baptism of the holy spirit, for john the Baptist said that would be given by Christ. I have previously given you many verses that show a uniqueness to the spirit being given as it was not under the old covenant.
Moses said if they obeyed the law I would be their righteousness.
However, David understood the truth. He didn't rely on a law of righteousness, he relied on Gods unfailing love( psalms52:8) to save him ultimately, for he knew no one was ( truly) righteous before God.
What did Paul have that David did not? A new covenant! And what that entailed
 
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stuart lawrence

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Repentance unto entry into Christ's Holy Body...



It is righteousness because God gave the Law they obeyed...

What did David DO with the Law? This the David who was a man after God's Own Heart?
He made the Law his constant meditation... He became "above his teachers" because he constantly meditated on the Law night and day... His self-imposed discipleship under the Law came from him INTERNALIZING the Law of Moses... And in this effort, he fully acquired the Holy Spirit, to the point of seeing in visions the coming of Christ and foretelling His Incarnation and his death on the cross...

So by MY standards, this is the Righteousness of God in David - He had the Holy Spirit fully to the point of becoming a Prophet of God Most High... Yes, he later fell to temptation and murder... But no one can say he was not a Holy man of God...

Righteousness, you see, is RIGHT RELATIONSHIP with God...

How was David lacking anything?

I mean, YOU are not righteous enough to prophesy future events in the Spirit...

And I sure as tootin' am not...

OT Prophets are WAY more righteous than you and I will ever be, yes?

And here comes Paul: (your quote)



Notice here in Paul that he is affirming the Law as being UNTO Righteousness...
AND
That Christ is the GOAL of the Law, its DESTINATION...



That is a silly question...

The right question is, if Christ is the destination of the Law, then HOW do we acquire Christ apart from the Law, and what IS that acquisition... Because we are no longer under the Law that has Christ as its telos, or end - eg destination...

And back to David, what did Paul have that David was lacking that enabled Paul to ascend to the third heaven, and left David lusting after another man's naked wife?

Arsenios
 
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stuart lawrence

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Repentance unto entry into Christ's Holy Body...



It is righteousness because God gave the Law they obeyed...

What did David DO with the Law? This the David who was a man after God's Own Heart?
He made the Law his constant meditation... He became "above his teachers" because he constantly meditated on the Law night and day... His self-imposed discipleship under the Law came from him INTERNALIZING the Law of Moses... And in this effort, he fully acquired the Holy Spirit, to the point of seeing in visions the coming of Christ and foretelling His Incarnation and his death on the cross...

So by MY standards, this is the Righteousness of God in David - He had the Holy Spirit fully to the point of becoming a Prophet of God Most High... Yes, he later fell to temptation and murder... But no one can say he was not a Holy man of God...

Righteousness, you see, is RIGHT RELATIONSHIP with God...

How was David lacking anything?

I mean, YOU are not righteous enough to prophesy future events in the Spirit...

And I sure as tootin' am not...

OT Prophets are WAY more righteous than you and I will ever be, yes?

And here comes Paul: (your quote)



Notice here in Paul that he is affirming the Law as being UNTO Righteousness...
AND
That Christ is the GOAL of the Law, its DESTINATION...



That is a silly question...

The right question is, if Christ is the destination of the Law, then HOW do we acquire Christ apart from the Law, and what IS that acquisition... Because we are no longer under the Law that has Christ as its telos, or end - eg destination...

And back to David, what did Paul have that David was lacking that enabled Paul to ascend to the third heaven, and left David lusting after another man's naked wife?

Arsenios
We don't acquire Christ apart from the law, but it is not a law of righteousness!
Jesus said to Nicodemus:
Ye MUST be born again. It isn't an option, it is pivotal.
As Jeremiah and the writer of Hebrews tells us. The law God requires us to keep is written on our minds and placed on our hearts under the new covenant. If that didn't happen, a person cannot have Christ, for they would not be under the new covenant
 
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stuart lawrence

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Jesus told his disciples there was much more he wanted to teach them, more than they could then bear, but when the holy spirit was given, he would lead them into truth ( john ch16)
He was referring to the Pentecost experience obviously. Therefore, the writers of the epistles could bear the knowledge Christ said the disciples could not at that time bear. And they wrote of this knowledge to people who could bear to understand it as they had also accepted the Pentecost experience.
So according to Jesus own words, what is written in the gospels can be understood without the Pentecost experience, what follows the Gospels cannot.
So the dividing line is the Pentecost experience, and that today is the true dividing line in Christianity, NOT denominations. For people in all denomination accept the Pentecost experience, and people in all denominations do not( apart from Pentecostals)
This is why so many find much of what Paul wrote impossible to understand.
The baptism of the holy spirit( or filling of the holy spirit as it is often referred to) as described by John the Baptist, that Christ would give, is the true dividing line in the Christian faith.
It does not matter how learned you are, it does not matter how much you study, if you don't accept the Pentecost experience you will not fully understand the message, for you will not be able to bear such knowledge.
 
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Arsenios

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Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are hymenaus and philetus who have wandered from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
2 Tim 2:17&18

Which resurrection?

And why?

Arsenios
 
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stuart lawrence

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Which resurrection?

And why?

Arsenios
I like you, I really do( I know we are to love our brothers and sisters) but brother, no matter what scripture I place before you, if it doesn't agree with your beliefs/ your church doctrine you wont accept it will you.
You are not alone, 99% of people on these websites are the same.
You tell me a resurrection Paul states has not happened yet, but will one day.
 
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