SALVATION: Old Testament vs New Testament

[Arsenios]

This is a thread generated on another forum, and the question is this:

What is the difference between the Salvation of David and that of Paul?

Or between the OT Prophets and the New Testament Apostles?

Arsenios

 

[ScottA]

This is a thread generated on another forum, and the question is this:

What is the difference between the Salvation of David and that of Paul?

Or between the OT Prophets and the New Testament Apostles?

Arsenios

If I understand correctly (you are asking the difference of how salvation is attained during the OT compared with the NT).

The Old Testament era is made up of the sons of Adam, the sons of the flesh, and of original sin: whom are saved by God's choosing them out of the world, to be witnesses (a light unto the gentiles) to His promise of salvation through the coming of Messiah - many were called, few were chosen. Their witness was in the flesh, the "last" of whom was Christ, and "It is finished." They are "the dead in Christ" and the first of the "two witnesses."

The New Testament era is made up of the witnesses to the fact that Messiah has indeed come. But their/our witness is not in the flesh, but in the spirit, as those born again of the spirit of God. They/we are grafted into the chosen spiritually. These are the times of the gentiles wherein God has poured out His spirit upon all men (on the gentiles), and those who hear His voice, follow Him. These are those who are "alive at His coming" (in spirit), in whom He now lives. These are those who believe that Christ has come, and so they are saved. These are the sons of the second Adam, Christ. They are "the last" of the two witnesses, whom are "first" (to be born of the spirit). For the first shall be last, and the last shall be first.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

This is a thread generated on another forum, and the question is this:

What is the difference between the Salvation of David and that of Paul?

Or between the OT Prophets and the New Testament Apostles?

Arsenios

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Salvation has always been by God's grace through faith working in His people. In the OT they looked forward to God giving them a messiah, and in the NT they saw the messiah and confessed their faith in Him. We look back in faith and await His second coming.

 

[Soyeong]

This is a thread generated on another forum, and the question is this:

What is the difference between the Salvation of David and that of Paul?

Or between the OT Prophets and the New Testament Apostles?

Arsenios

John 5:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”

They looked forward to a redeemer just as we look backward.

 

[sdowney717]

Salvation is always by grace through faith not of ourselves being the gift of God.
Before the Law, Abraham was justified by faith, Abraham of whom God said He would create as a father of a great nation of those who have faith in God and Christ.

Even here in the OT, the righteous shall live by his faith in God, and that before any works of the LAW. The LAW of GOD can not bring any justification, right standing with God, for by the LAW is the knowledge of sin.

Habakkuk 2:4
“Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him,
but the righteous shall live by his faith.

Romans 3
20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Romans 4 English Standard Version (ESV)

Abraham Justified by Faith
4 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith
13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness[c] of Sarah's womb. 20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

 

[EmSw]

Salvation is always by grace through faith not of ourselves being the gift of God.
Before the Law, Abraham was justified by faith, Abraham of whom God said He would create as a father of a great nation of those who have faith in God and Christ.

Even here in the OT, the righteous shall live by his faith in God, and that before any works of the LAW. The LAW of GOD can not bring any justification, right standing with God, for by the LAW is the knowledge of sin.

Habakkuk 2:4
“Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him,
but the righteous shall live by his faith.

Here's your problem sdowney.

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Since Paul said no one is righteous, there were no people who lived by faith.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Here's your problem sdowney.

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Since Paul said no one is righteous, there were no people who lived by faith.

Yes, there is none righteous. That is why righteousness is given to us by God's grace in Jesus Christ through faith.

Romans 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

God can only do this because of the cross, because Jesus took on the punishment for sin that Abraham deserved.

 

[EmSw]

Yes, there is none righteous. That is why righteousness is given to us by God's grace in Jesus Christ through faith.

Romans 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

God can only do this because of the cross, because Jesus took on the punishment for sin that Abraham deserved.

So, do you disagree with Paul's statement?

What was the punishment Jesus took for sin?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

So, do you disagree with Paul's statement?

I literally just agreed with it... Here is the quote:

Yes, there is none righteous.

No one is righteous, that is why if you keep reading Paul you learn that righteousness comes by faith in Jesus.

Romans 3:21-22
But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

What was the punishment Jesus took for sin?

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

 

[sdowney717]

This here
"in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. "

Tells us of the power of God over His creation. God gives life to the dead, fantastic, only God can give life to that which is dead.
Jesus broke the sabbath, which violated the LAW, angering the Jews who cared only about straining out gnats.
"Blind guides--those straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel!"
Jesus here tells us

"21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. "

I love how the word of God confirms and complements the word of God.

John 5
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Like the Father, like the Son, they are of the same mind, giving life to whom they will. That would be in the Old Covenant and in the New.

 

[EmSw]

I literally just agreed with it... Here is the quote:

No one is righteous, that is why if you keep reading Paul you learn that righteousness comes by faith in Jesus.

Romans 3:21-22
But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

So, is there no one righteous, not even ONE, or was Abraham righteous? Since Abraham lived after Paul, surely he would have known Abraham was righteous. Abraham did not know Jesus, so how could he have faith in someone he didn't know?

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Are the wages of sin eternal death or temporary death?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

So, is there no one righteous, not even ONE, or was Abraham righteous? Since Abraham lived after Paul, surely he would have known Abraham was righteous. Abraham did not know Jesus, so how could he have faith in someone he didn't know?

No one is righteous in and of themselves, but through faith in Jesus one can be made righteous. He had faith in God and the future messiah who we now know as Jesus. I'm curious... why are you asking me these questions? Aren't you a Christian? You should know this stuff.

Are the wages of sin eternal death or temporary death?

Eternal death, but God postponed the death of Adam and Eve so humankind could proliferate and lead to the messiah. The death that they and all people die for is from eating the tree, but since God postponed Adam and Eve's death they and all people have committed sins that have yet to be judged. God will raise mankind to judge them for all of the other sins they have committed, and if they are not found in Christ then they will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

 

[EmSw]

This here
"in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. "

Tells us of the power of God over His creation. God gives life to the dead, fantastic, only God can give life to that which is dead.
Jesus broke the sabbath, which violated the LAW, angering the Jews who cared only about straining out gnats.
"Blind guides--those straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel!"
Jesus here tells us

"21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. "

I love how the word of God confirms and complements the word of God.

John 5
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Like the Father, like the Son, they are of the same mind, giving life to whom they will. That would be in the Old Covenant and in the New.

Here is how God gave righteousness and life in the OT.

Ezekiel 18:9
Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.

Ezekiel 18
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Leviticus 18:5
Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord.

Deuteronomy 4:1
Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live,

Ezekiel 3:21
Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezekiel 33:16
None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

I haven't seen anywhere in the OT where a man was saved by having faith in Jesus. Maybe you can show us where you found it.

 

[Soyeong]

Here's your problem sdowney.

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Since Paul said no one is righteous, there were no people who lived by faith.

Genesis 6:9 This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.

The problem with your interpretation of Romans 3:10 is that the Bible talks about many people who are righteous, such as Noah. The issue is not that no one is righteous, but that no one is righteous through their own efforts, but only by faith.

 

[EmSw]

No one is righteous in and of themselves, but through faith in Jesus one can be made righteous. He had faith in God and the future messiah who we now know as Jesus. I'm curious... why are you asking me these questions? Aren't you a Christian? You should know this stuff.

Where do you find Abraham had faith in a future messiah? God, who spoke to Abraham, was Abraham's Savior and Redeemer. This is the same God who spoke to Moses, David, and the prophets.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no Saviour.

Isaiah 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isaiah 49:26
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Eternal death, but God postponed the death of Adam and Eve so humankind could proliferate and lead to the messiah. The death that they and all people die for is from eating the tree, but since God postponed Adam and Eve's death they and all people have committed sins that have yet to be judged. God will raise mankind to judge them for all of the other sins they have committed, and if they are not found in Christ then they will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

If it was ETERNAL DEATH, then Jesus didn't make the payment. His death was temporary. If He paid the price of eternal death, then He would still be paying for sin in hell.

 

[Soyeong]

I haven't seen anywhere in the OT where a man was saved by having faith in Jesus. Maybe you can show us where you found it.

The promises of God were of central importance in the OT, which included having faith in a redeemer.

 

[EmSw]

Genesis 6:9 This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.

The problem with your interpretation of Romans 3:10 is that the Bible talks about many people who are righteous, such as Noah. The issue is not that no one is righteous, but that no one is righteous through their own efforts, but only by faith.

Ezekiel 18:9 disagrees with your assessment.

Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.

 

[EmSw]

The promises of God were of central importance in the OT, which included having faith in a redeemer.

Please show me where faith in a Redeemer was central importance in the OT.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Where do you find Abraham had faith in a future messiah? God, who spoke to Abraham, was Abraham's Savior and Redeemer. This is the same God who spoke to Moses, David, and the prophets.

Jesus is God. Hello?

If it was ETERNAL DEATH, then Jesus didn't make the payment. His death was temporary. If He paid the price of eternal death, then He would still be paying for sin in hell.

Jesus died for us but death could not hold Him because He is God. You could also look at it as Jesus being eternal, so His death counts as an eternal death.

 

[Soyeong]

Ezekiel 18:9 disagrees with your assessment.

Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.

How does it disagree with my assessment? Furthermore, Noah was described as a righteous man, so your assessment is wrong even if mine is also wrong.