Socialism on the rise?

BrianJK

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I myself use capitalism when it's useful to discussion. Free-enterprise however is the more accurate term.

The opposite of free-enterprise of course is government controlled enterprise ... which is to say, Marxism. Just the truth. The lie about workers being in control of production is just a political convenience useful to garner political power. The only time workers have ever been in charge of production has been under the free-enterprise system when employees have owned the company. As an example, I offer that the dominant grocery chain in Iowa is employee owned ... but it most assuredly is not socialist, either in name or action.

Government is, and has always been, a necessary evil. To give government more than the minimal power to accomplish fundamental checks and balances though is, well, foolish in the extreme. So-called socialist governments have historically very badly abused such powers, killed millions upon millions of people and ensured shared misery for hundreds of millions of others.

I don't agree with your opinion on government being an evil. And socialism itself didn't kill people; autocrats did. Blair was a self-styled Democratic socialist too, and he didn't destroy his country.
 
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Rick Otto

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I'm coming to think that this incompetent could be the best protection against Socialism that we could have, if we put him into the White House.
I am impressed with your directness.
Have you watched some Fellini films ever?
 
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BrianJK

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So what have we established? Capitalism is an inaccurate term so we shouldn't use it to argue against self-styled capitalists, but we can anchor onto the word socialist for Sanders all we want because Mao and Stalin...

(insert emoji for emphasis here)
 
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Albion

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I don't agree with your analysis, but at least you're arguing the issues and the record instead of harping on one word!
Well, that one word is almost the whole of this thread, you know.

If I started talking about how I don't like Socialism because Socialism by definition means that there would no longer be any employment, I'm sure that all the devotees of Socialism here would be protesting that this is untrue and destroys a serious discussion of the merits of Socialism.

But let us be the ones insisting upon a correct definition or understanding of the same word and look at the song and dance we're given in return. Anything to prevent there being a correct usage.
 
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Rick Otto

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I don't agree with your opinion on government being an evil. And socialism itself didn't kill people; autocrats did. Blair was a self-styled Democratic socialist too, and he didn't destroy his country.
I called gov. that, but I can get on board @ the evil part.
I think back to Samuel warning Israel not to desire a king, and wonder what life was like under ...what did they have, a Theocratic Judiciary? I don't recall reading anything about juries or appeals, though. =80
 
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NightHawkeye

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In other words, there is no Party representative on site, enforcing policy, right?
The Socialist Worker's Party? ... or perhaps Union thugs? :scratch:

Hy-Vee - Employee-owned

Mission Statement: Making lives easier, healthier, happier.

The Hy-Vee story:
In 1930, Charles Hyde and David Vredenburg opened a small general store in Beaconsfield, Iowa. That store grew to become Hy-Vee — a company known for excellent service and reasonable prices. As an employee-owned company, Hy-Vee encourages each of its more than 78,000 employees to help guide the company. Its 85 years of outstanding success is a testament to those employees’ hard work and dedication to the vision of its founders.
 
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Albion

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Baseless name calling at its finest!
Baseless? The man has been a complete failure in Congress. Totally inconsequential. And yet you think that's a recommendation for him being made president--a president who'll get anything done?
 
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Rick Otto

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Well, that one word is almost the whole of this thread, you know.

If I started talking about how I don't like Socialism because Socialism by definition means that there would no longer be any employment, I'm sure that all the devotees of Socialism here would be protesting that this is untrue and destroys a serious discussion of the merits of Socialism.

But let us be the ones insisting upon a correct definition or understanding of the same word and look at the song and dance we're given in return. Anything to prevent there being a correct usage.
How would there be any employment by definition? The definition doesn't abolish jobs, it just shifts ownership to position of political football, which it already is de facto, despite labeling.
 
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BrianJK

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Baseless? The man has been a complete failure in Congress. Totally inconsequential. And yet you think that's a recommendation for him being made president--a president who'll get anything done?

Only if your premise that sponsored bills are the measure of a competent senator...
 
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BrianJK

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Well, that one word is almost the whole of this thread, you know.

If I started talking about how I don't like Socialism because Socialism by definition means that there would no longer be any employment, I'm sure that all the devotees of Socialism here would be protesting that this is untrue and destroys a serious discussion of the merits of Socialism.

But let us be the ones insisting upon a correct definition or understanding of the same word and look at the song and dance we're given in return. Anything to prevent there being a correct usage.

A bit part of the discussion is the distinction of Democratic Socialism, a distinction you haven't even acknowledged despite its historic precedents. But if your game is to lump it all together with Mao and Stalin in an attempt to mislead about what Sanders' positions actually are, I'll leave you to it.

If Democratic Socialism is socialism, then late 90s/early 2000s UK is an example of its success
 
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Albion

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Albion said:
If I started talking about how I don't like Socialism because Socialism by definition means that there would no longer be any employment

How would there be any employment by definition? The definition doesn't abolish jobs, it just shifts ownership to position of political football, which it already is de facto, despite labeling.

I guess I should have written, "If I started talking about how I don't like Socialism because Socialism by definition means that there would no longer be any chocolate..."

I thought that starting off with the word "IF" would be adequate to prevent anyone from misunderstanding, but the 'best laid plans,' as they say.......
 
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Albion

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A bit part of the discussion is the distinction of Democratic Socialism, a distinction you haven't even acknowledged despite its historic precedents. But if your game is to lump it all together with Mao and Stalin in an attempt to mislead about what Sanders' positions actually are, I'll leave you to it.
Keep telling yourself that this IS what I have said. Since you have no other contribution to make, you might as well take your strong stand against an imaginary opponent. :p
 
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BrianJK

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Keep telling yourself that this IS what I have said. Since you have no other contribution to make, you might as well take your strong stand against an imaginary opponent. :p

Those emojis really help your case!

So enlighten me, if your argument isn't essentially, "Socialism is bad. Bernie uses the word "socialism" in some context, so Bernie is bad"
 
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NightHawkeye

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Those emojis really help your case!

So enlighten me, if your argument isn't essentially, "Socialism is bad. Bernie uses the word "socialism" in some context, so Bernie is bad"
Hi, Brian.

I believe Albion's argument was that socialism is bad ... and that Sanders has proven himself to be incompetent.

Personally, I like Sanders honesty. He admits to being socialist. That allows reasonable discussion of what form of government he wants, how well such governments have worked out historically ... and, yes, his personal competence.
 
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BrianJK

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Hi, Brian.

I believe Albion's argument was that socialism is bad ... and that Sanders has proven himself to be incompetent.

Personally, I like Sanders honesty. He admits to being socialist. That allows reasonable discussion of what form of government he wants, how well such governments have worked out historically ... and, yes, his personal competence.

He admits to bring a Democratic socialist, again the same style used by Blair. To ignore this distinction is, in my opinion, not conducive to an honest discussion on his particular candidacy.

We can discuss reasons why stalin's or mao's brand of socialism would be bad for the us, but to pretend that what sanders is proposing is the same simply because they use the same word (well, Sanders uses it as only part of the style) would be dishonest.
 
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The Cadet

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So for all this talk about "socialism" in the context of Russia and China, does anyone actually have any interest in connecting it back to modern democratic socialism - you know, the only form of socialism that is even worth talking about in the American Politics part of the forum? No, please, by all means, tell me - what does Soviet Russia have to do with modern American politics? This thread is possibly the biggest waste of time I've ever seen. Yeesh.
 
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NightHawkeye

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So for all this talk about "socialism" in the context of Russia and China, does anyone actually have any interest in connecting it back to modern democratic socialism - you know, the only form of socialism that is even worth talking about in the American Politics part of the forum? No, please, by all means, tell me - what does Soviet Russia have to do with modern American politics? This thread is possibly the biggest waste of time I've ever seen. Yeesh.
If one doesn't want to discuss Socialism in the extreme ... then one ought not bring up Capitalism in the extreme.

Whaddaya think?
 
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The Cadet

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If one doesn't want to discuss Socialism in the extreme ... then one ought not bring up Capitalism in the extreme.

"My opponent is doing a very bad thing, ergo I should do a very bad thing."

But Capitalism in the extreme does seem to describe the republican position, doesn't it? It's not just some vague abstraction to talk about unfettered capitalism without any sort of safety net when Republicans talk about things like scrapping the EPA, IRS, and DoE, when they talk about privatizing social security... Or am I wrong?
 
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BrianJK

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If one doesn't want to discuss Socialism in the extreme ... then one ought not bring up Capitalism in the extreme.

Whaddaya think?

Does this mean you're unwilling to discuss modern Democratic socialism as it is actually being proposed in this case? Would that damage the "China and the Soviets were bad" angle so many here are clinging to?
 
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