Socialism on the rise?

BrianJK · Feb 9, 2016

dogs4thewin said:
I am in my 20s conservtive on most issues particularly as it relates to topics like soicalism and while I am not God I do not see that changing.

I felt that way a decade ago too. You may not change in the way I did. Many don't.

Again, there doesn't seem to be one formula or one right political view per age. We're humans; we're going to disagree with each other no matter how old we are.

AionPhanes · Feb 9, 2016

BrianJK said:
It worked the opposite way for me. When I was younger, I was much more conservative than I am now. I would never have considered socialism in my 20s, but I am considering it now. There is no one formula for people and politics, I think.

Same here. When I was in elementary school and JR high I was an all out conservative Republican. Listened to Rush and talked about politics with the adults because the kids would look at me like I was crazy when I talked about politics. By the time I was in high school I moved even further right and eventually (2nd year) became a nazi skinhead. In my early twenties I rejected all that and became an anarcho-socalist. In my thirties I became a little more moderate (not an anarchist any more) and became a democratic socialist.

AionPhanes · Feb 9, 2016

There is a popular stereotype on the right that socialists are lazy, completely materialistic, and are only supporters of the cause because they want to avoid work and get free stuff.

While I would be lying if I said such people don't exist they are hardly in the mainstream. A lot of people become socialist for more altruistic reasons. Often they simply don't like the effect that massive wealth inequalities have on the government and society. They recognize that wealth is power and can be used to purchase political and social (media, religious, etc..) influence. Poor individuals tends to have comparatively little say or even time to dedicate to political activism. Not all socialists are even in a position where they would need to make use of safety net programs but they actually care about the interests of other people who might not be as fortunate. We see it as our duty to implement a system that would protect the weak. A system in which wealth would be distributed in such a way as to cause the maximum good for the largest number of people possible rather than just the one percent.

As for the materialistic charge... That's a huge problem in the population at large across the political spectrum. A problem aggravated by a capitalistic cosumer driven society that requires constant growth or else it busts. If anything I think Socialists tend to actually do better on that front than "greed is good" (Reagen) capitalist types.

mark46 · Feb 9, 2016

AionPhanes said:
According to a recent PEW poll fourty-nine percent of voters under the age of thirty had a positive view socialism whereas only fourty-six percent had a positive view of capitalism. Socialism beating out capitalism in popularity with young voters represents a massive change in public opinion. Not long ago socialism was a smear term conservatives used to scare people with but now it's not so scary but has instead become down right popular. What does this mean for the future of America? Could we see the rise of a new socialist party or the "take over" of the Democratic party for socialism simmilar to the far right tea party take over of the Republican party?

The New Yorker :

"A 2011 Pew Research Center survey found that, among voters under the age of thirty, forty-nine per cent had a positive view of socialism. (Only forty-six per cent had a positive view of capitalism.) Peter Dreier, a professor of politics at Occidental College, who has written about Sanders, says that younger voters “may not be willing to entertain a whole new system, but they are open to a pretty profound critique of the current one. They’re not as naïve as Americans used to be during the Cold War—they know that there are varieties of capitalism, that there is social democracy in Scandinavia and Canada, where the government plays a bigger role in regulating corporations and in expanding the safety net.”

How different was the situation in the 1960's?

That being said, we are struggling between the Tea Party and those who want to have health care, education and parents leave for all. And then, there is the 60% in the middle.

The youth of today have been out in a ridiculous position with huge student debt for all, an heroin addiction as the #2 concern. They need a positive vision of the future. We had that in the 60's, on both extremes politically. It is lacking today.

Nd yes, the right wing view of unregulated capitalism, while politically minimizing the safety net for the poor and middle classes is indeed an unmitigated disaster and a truly horrible world view.

And yes, I strongly believe that regulated capitalism is by far the best economic and political structure.

AionPhanes · Feb 9, 2016

"Mark46: And yes, I strongly believe that regulated capitalism is by far the best economic and politicalstructure."

Generally democratic socialists / social democrats don't call for the abolishment of the market all together. While they would certainly applaud and maybe even create incentives for cooperatives or other forms of work place democracy or shared ownership they don't call for state (or other forms of mandated collective )ownership of all the means of production but only of certain key industries and services like policing or healthcare. Some might argue that it's not "True socialism" but it's the label that has stuck.

Re the heroin epidemic. Yeah that is a massive and fast growing problem. Heroin addiction is growing in middle and upper class communities. The local high schools in my city are having a big problem with it too. I've lost 5 of my friends to heroin overdoses or heroin related complications. I was hooked on it myself for a few years and am glad I made it out of that mess alive.

mark46 · Feb 9, 2016

AionPhanes said:
"Mark46: And yes, I strongly believe that regulated capitalism is by far the best economic and politicalstructure."

Generally democratic socialists / social democrats don't call for the abolishment of the market all together. While they would certainly applaud and maybe even create incentives for cooperatives or other forms of work place democracy or shared ownership they don't call for state (or other forms of mandated collective )ownership of all the means of production but only of certain key industries and services like policing or healthcare. Some might argue that it's not "True socialism" but it's the label that has stuck.

Re the heroin epidemic. Yeah that is a massive and fast growing problem. Heroin addiction is growing in middle and upper class communities. The local high schools in my city are having a big problem with it too. I've lost 5 of my friends to heroin overdoses or heroin related complications. I was hooked on it myself for a few years and am glad I made it out of that mess alive.

There is a difference between democrats and social democrats. Perhaps you believe that Bernie wouldn't break up the banks and make them public if they could. I suspect that there are other industries also.

Sanders simply has no interest in encouraging business,mall or large. He believes that the government creates jobs, which just isn't true except in times of recession.

ThatRobGuy · Feb 9, 2016

AionPhanes said:
It's too bad the Occupy movement lost steam. Something like that would provide a nice vehicle for radically reforming the Democratic party. We might witness the rise of a simmilar movement in the future though.

Who knows maybe a Democratic Socialist party will coalesce and replace the Democratic party all together. Our government might be set up in a manner that favors a two party system but whose to say they have to be the ones in existence now.

I would have to disagree on that one...I'm sure the democratic party is just fine with not having the Occupy movement associated to them anymore. Occupy was to Democrats what the Tea Party is to Republicans.

...also, I hate to be a stickler, but what most people are referring to when they refer to "Socialism" is actually Nordic Capitalism. True socialism would be something similar to what China has (and even they've started adopting some free market practices).

Nordic capitalism (which is practiced in Norway, Denmark, Iceland, etc...) is Capitalism, but with elevated levels of social safety nets, and a large public sector. Socialism relates to ownership of the means of production.

As far as Occupy is concerned, this clip from the show "The Newsroom" (which is a left-leaning show BTW) sums up leaderless movements fairly well.

AceHero · Feb 9, 2016

Smidlee said:
It's usually true that the youth are more liberal but becomes more conservatives as they get older.

Well, I was raised in a very conservative household and I'm now very liberal. I don't see myself changing my current views just on account of getting old.

BrianJK said:
It worked the opposite way for me. When I was younger, I was much more conservative than I am now. I would never have considered socialism in my 20s, but I am considering it now. There is no one formula for people and politics, I think.

AionPhanes said:

Same here. When I was in elementary school and JR high I was an all out conservative Republican. Listened to Rush and talked about politics with the adults because the kids would look at me like I was crazy when I talked about politics. By the time I was in high school I moved even further right and eventually (2nd year) became a nazi skinhead. In my early twenties I rejected all that and became an anarcho-socalist. In my thirties I became a little more moderate (not an anarchist any more) and became a democratic socialist.

Click to expand...

Wow, I'm glad you've recovered from that!

miniverchivi said:
...also, I hate to be a stickler, but what most people are referring to when they refer to "Socialism" is actually Nordic Capitalism. True socialism would be something similar to what China has (and even they've started adopting some free market practices).

Nordic capitalism (which is practiced in Norway, Denmark, Iceland, etc...) is Capitalism, but with elevated levels of social safety nets, and a large public sector. Socialism relates to ownership of the means of production.

That's one of the critiques I have of Sanders: I don't really see him as a socialist. He's a social democrat, but I guess that takes too long to explain when the American media is made up of 30 second soundbites.

miniverchivi said:
As far as Occupy is concerned, this clip from the show "The Newsroom" (which is a left-leaning show BTW) sums up leaderless movements fairly well.

I'd have to agree, and I think Occupy Wall Street was even more leaderless than Black Lives Matter and the Tea Party.

Aureus · Feb 9, 2016

Smidlee said:
It's usually true that the youth are more liberal but becomes more conservatives as they get older.

No, its not.

"All the evidence we have found refutes the idea that as people age their attitudes become more conservative or more rigid," said Nicholas Danigelis, a sociologist at the University of Vermont. "It's just not true. More people are changing in a liberal direction than in a conservative direction."

http://www.livescience.com/2360-busting-myth-people-turn-liberal-age.html

But don't let research into how people's views change over time interfere with an oft-repeated never backed up saying.

A2SG · Feb 9, 2016

AionPhanes said:
According to a recent PEW poll fourty-nine percent of voters under the age of thirty had a positive view socialism whereas only fourty-six percent had a positive view of capitalism. Socialism beating out capitalism in popularity with young voters represents a massive change in public opinion. Not long ago socialism was a smear term conservatives used to scare people with but now it's not so scary but has instead become down right popular. What does this mean for the future of America? Could we see the rise of a new socialist party or the "take over" of the Democratic party for socialism simmilar to the far right tea party take over of the Republican party?

The New Yorker :

"A 2011 Pew Research Center survey found that, among voters under the age of thirty, forty-nine per cent had a positive view of socialism. (Only forty-six per cent had a positive view of capitalism.) Peter Dreier, a professor of politics at Occidental College, who has written about Sanders, says that younger voters “may not be willing to entertain a whole new system, but they are open to a pretty profound critique of the current one. They’re not as naïve as Americans used to be during the Cold War—they know that there are varieties of capitalism, that there is social democracy in Scandinavia and Canada, where the government plays a bigger role in regulating corporations and in expanding the safety net.”

I think a reason for this might be that young people today are dealing directly with the effects of capitalism, specifically the "trickle down" version that harkens back to the laissez-faire days of the late 19th century, and they see the problems with it.

They also know that socialism isn't communism, and they have no fear of that, like previous generations did after years of red-baiting. Socialism, as it has come to be known, is simply the idea that the government can provide assistance and programs to help people who need it....something corporations are loathe to do, as there's no profit in it.

Capitalism isn't about helping people: it's about making profit for the few who are at the top. Young people who are at the bottom, see this. And they've decided we need a sea change.

-- A2SG, oo-ee, oo-ee baby....

royal priest · Feb 9, 2016

AionPhanes said:
According to a recent PEW poll fourty-nine percent of voters under the age of thirty had a positive view socialism whereas only fourty-six percent had a positive view of capitalism. Socialism beating out capitalism in popularity with young voters represents a massive change in public opinion. Not long ago socialism was a smear term conservatives used to scare people with but now it's not so scary but has instead become down right popular. What does this mean for the future of America? Could we see the rise of a new socialist party or the "take over" of the Democratic party for socialism simmilar to the far right tea party take over of the Republican party?

The New Yorker :

"A 2011 Pew Research Center survey found that, among voters under the age of thirty, forty-nine per cent had a positive view of socialism. (Only forty-six per cent had a positive view of capitalism.) Peter Dreier, a professor of politics at Occidental College, who has written about Sanders, says that younger voters “may not be willing to entertain a whole new system, but they are open to a pretty profound critique of the current one. They’re not as naïve as Americans used to be during the Cold War—they know that there are varieties of capitalism, that there is social democracy in Scandinavia and Canada, where the government plays a bigger role in regulating corporations and in expanding the safety net.”

Socialism is in its third trimester. This nation is definitely suffering from shortness of breath, hemorrhoids, urinary incontinence, varicose veins and sleeping problems to say the least. Yup, it'll be any day now...

Chesterton · Feb 9, 2016

super animator said:
I called house feathers on that. Where is your evidence?

It's well known that high school kids graduate with poor reading comprehension relative to generations past, and business complains that university grads are often unable to be hired for their lack of skills. I know there are lots of good teachers, but there are way too many bad ones. I know from friends and family in academia. I have a friend from my younger days who's now a professor of literature at a respected university and the guy literally can't even understand a country-western song lyric. I'm sure you've seen the flood of videos of college students who can't answer what nation America declared independence from. And I don't even need to go into the blatant political indoctrination teaching hatred of Western civilization which is rampant.

Aureus · Feb 10, 2016

Chesterton said:
It's well known that high school kids graduate with poor reading comprehension relative to generations past, and business complains that university grads are often unable to be hired for their lack of skills. I know there are lots of good teachers, but there are way too many bad ones. I know from friends and family in academia. I have a friend from my younger days who's now a professor of literature at a respected university and the guy literally can't even understand a country-western song lyric. I'm sure you've seen the flood of videos of college students who can't answer what nation America declared independence from. And I don't even need to go into the blatant political indoctrination teaching hatred of Western civilization which is rampant.

So you don't have evidence. You have anecdotal stories. Yes businesses routinely complain about not being able to hire people with the skills they want. Its a complaint that has been heard by every generation in history and is nothing new, nor is it evidence of anything. Though I'd love to see some kind of evidence that shows reading comprehension is worse today than in the past, as that strikes me as an incredibly unlikely assertion that would require some serious data to backup. Meanwhile I'm sure you're aware that its very easy to make a 10 minute video showing people give dumb answers to a question when you're willing to edit down the 50 hours of shooting you did to find those 10 minutes of dumb answers.

greenguzzi · Feb 10, 2016

Smidlee said:
It's usually true that the youth are more liberal but becomes more conservatives as they get older. The youth doesn't have the experience to know the difference between something that is for the good from something that just feels good. Socialism only works if the masses have the mentality on working hard for something and only lean on the government when they have no other choice. The problem with socialism is the next generation doesn't have the same working mentality so they rely more and more on the government to provide them with their needs. Some will even get the mentality that these freebies are owe to them and it's their right to have all these freebies at the expense of others. Then socialism becomes the evil in a society the conservatives warns you about that eats away like a cancer in the body.

I find that many younger people are way too conservative. (Or selfish, as I like to evaluate it.) I was fairly leftist when I was very young, I flirted with aspirational conservatism in my 20s. But I am pleased to say that as I get older I get more informed, so I drift back towards the left. So we aren't all cursed to become more conservative as we get older.

I don't think socialism is what you think it is. The issues you seem to have with socialism make no sense. Socialism isn't about anyone getting freebies, it's quite the opposite. It's about the workers having control of the means of production; which stops the bourgeoisie capital class from getting freebies that they never earned.

greenguzzi · Feb 10, 2016

dogs4thewin said:
I am in my 20s conservtive on most issues particularly as it relates to topics like soicalism and while I am not God I do not see that changing.

Socialism isn't a topic or an issue. It's a set of ideas. You might agree with some of these ideas, or you might not. But you can't be "conservative" on it. I think you need to understand what socialism is before you form any opinions about it.

Edit: I also think you might like to better understand conservatism, also authoritarianism and libertarianism. People often confuse socialism with authoritarianism. But there is such a thing as libertarian socialism.

dogs4thewin · Feb 10, 2016

greenguzzi said:
Socialism isn't a topic or an issue. It's a set of ideas. You might agree with some of these ideas, or you might not. But you can't be "conservative" on it. I think you need to understand what socialism is before you form any opinions about it.

Edit: I also think you might like to better understand conservatism, also authoritarianism and libertarianism. People often confuse socialism with authoritarianism. But there is such a thing as libertarian socialism.

I meant as it related to that set of ideas I tended to oppose them.

Rick Otto · Feb 10, 2016

AionPhanes said:
According to a recent PEW poll fourty-nine percent of voters under the age of thirty had a positive view socialism whereas only fourty-six percent had a positive view of capitalism. Socialism beating out capitalism in popularity with young voters represents a massive change in public opinion. Not long ago socialism was a smear term conservatives used to scare people with but now it's not so scary but has instead become down right popular. What does this mean for the future of America? Could we see the rise of a new socialist party or the "take over" of the Democratic party for socialism simmilar to the far right tea party take over of the Republican party?

The New Yorker :

"A 2011 Pew Research Center survey found that, among voters under the age of thirty, forty-nine per cent had a positive view of socialism. (Only forty-six per cent had a positive view of capitalism.) Peter Dreier, a professor of politics at Occidental College, who has written about Sanders, says that younger voters “may not be willing to entertain a whole new system, but they are open to a pretty profound critique of the current one. They’re not as naïve as Americans used to be during the Cold War—they know that there are varieties of capitalism, that there is social democracy in Scandinavia and Canada, where the government plays a bigger role in regulating corporations and in expanding the safety net.”

Capitalism has triumphed over democracy and constitutional republicanism.

Rick Otto · Feb 10, 2016

super animator said:
I called house feathers on that. Where is your evidence?

Is it not obvious?

Rick Otto · Feb 10, 2016

Fantine said:
I'm a little confused. It's the 1 percent who want huge capital gains for doing nothing, and pay little or no taxes. On order to get these they outsource and downsize and merge companies with no concept of the good of society.

So young people want socialism? Call it cause and effect.

Exactly.

greenguzzi · Feb 10, 2016

dogs4thewin said:
I meant as it related to that set of ideas I tended to oppose them.

Ok. So what would be one of the major concepts of socialism that you oppose the most?

Socialism on the rise?

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