CAN YOU EXPLAIN THE HOLY SPIRIT IN SCIENCE ?

Hi,

Although Mystical Helmet, rather than God Helmet, is probably more accurate, here is a Wiki.... Reference on that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

LOVE,

Michael said:

Actually, particle physicists deviates from empirically demonstrated physics all the time, including all the LHC "tests" that look for deviations from the standard particle physics model. QM notions of gravity rely upon a hypothetical force carrier particle that hasn't ever shown up in a lab experiment. The whole BB theory is based upon concepts that deviate from empirical physics by as much as 95 percent and none of it could be verified by LHC, LUX, PandaX, Cresst, etc.

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em·pir·i·cal adj.
1.
a. Relying on or derived from observation or experiment: empirical results that supported the hypothesis.
b. Verifiable or provable by means of observation or experiment: empirical laws.
2. Guided by practical experience and not theory, especially in medicine.
em·pir′i·cal·ly adv.

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American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2011 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

It is empirical when it is demonstrated. No one has figured out a way to test "string theory", so it actually isn't even a hypothesis. I suspect the "Big Bang" is an asymptotic approach to reality.

That's an example of a typically flippant response where none is warranted. The "God Helmet" experiments are real experiments with real EM fields, and apparently they trigger "experiences" that various individuals associate with 'spiritual' experiences, based upon their own testimony.

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They trigger "experiences" in some people, that some people people "associate" with the spiritual. Specifically, they trigger the illusion of a presence. It is just a feeling. And psychedelics can also trigger such experiences. The Christian mystic interprets such an experience as verification of Christianity, the Muslim as verification of Islam, and the seven blind men each interpret the experience of the elephant differently. And some folks experience nothing at all. It may be that the "helmet" just stimulates an area of the brain like a mild episode of epilepsy.
Something happens, sometimes: Therefore, a Holy Ghost?
Do you really expect to be taken seriously?

Gracchus said:

American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2011 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

It is empirical when it is demonstrated. No one has figured out a way to test "string theory", so it actually isn't even a hypothesis. I suspect the "Big Bang" is an asymptotic approach to reality.
They trigger "experiences" in some people, that some people people "associate" with the spiritual. Specifically, they trigger the illusion of a presence. It is just a feeling. And psychedelics can also trigger such experiences. The Christian mystic interprets such an experience as verification of Christianity, the Muslim as verification of Islam, and the seven blind men each interpret the experience of the elephant differently. And some folks experience nothing at all. It may be that the "helmet" just stimulates an area of the brain like a mild episode of epilepsy.
Something happens, sometimes: Therefore, a Holy Ghost?
Do you really expect to be taken seriously?

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Hi,

I thought the article said there was an 80% rate, at which everyone tested, had not a God experience but some sort of mystical experience.

Results like that, 80% are very significant.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

With an 80% rate, now most everyone can be looked at.

Also a helmet has been replicated by someone else, giving rise to hopes of replication.



LOVE,

katerinah1947 said:

Hi,
I thought the article said there was an 80% rate, at which everyone tested, had not a God experience but some sort of mystical experience.
Results like that, 80% are very significant.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

With an 80% rate, now most everyone can be looked at. Also a helmet has been replicated by someone else, giving rise to hopes of replication.

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It's been a while, but I seem to remember that what most experienced was a presence. It was a non-specific presence. Such experiences cannot really be put into words, but in order to explain them to others words are used.
The seven blind men started off by saying that the elephant is "very like a spear" and "very like a wall" and "very like a tree", and so on. But eventually, being challenged and contradicted by other testimony their positions hardened and they became certain.

See, for instance:
On Being Certain: Believing You Are Right Even When You're Not
Mar 17, 2009
by Robert A. Burton

and,
Mistakes Were Made (but Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts
Oct 20, 2015
by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson

Gracchus said:

It's been a while, but I seem to remember that what most experienced was a presence. It was a non-specific presence. Such experiences cannot really be put into words, but in order to explain them to others words are used.
The seven blind men started off by saying that the elephant is "very like a spear" and "very like a wall" and "very like a tree", and so on. But eventually, being challenged and contradicted by other testimony their positions hardened and they became certain.

See, for instance:
On Being Certain: Believing You Are Right Even When You're Not
Mar 17, 2009
by Robert A. Burton

and,
Mistakes Were Made (but Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts
Oct 20, 2015
by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson

Click to expand...

Hi,

I do understand your words and experiences of: I have not, visited or done this in a long time.,

I will post what struck me with the 80% stuff for you, to spare you the boredom of having to go over your old work again, to remember:

These subjects included atheists, as well as religious believers. 80% of the subjects reported the ‘presence’ of ‘nonphysical beings’ in the room where the experiments were conducted, including the ‘presence of God’ in a small number of subjects.”

And:

“Thus far, about 20 or so people have reported feeling the presence of Christ or even seeing him in the chamber (The acoustic chamber where the experimental sessions took place),” says Koren in a recent interview. “Most of these people used Christ and God interchangeably. Most of these individuals were older (30 years or more) and religious (Roman Catholic). One male, age about 35-years-old (alleged atheist but early childhood Roman Catholic training), saw a clear apparition (shoulders and head) of Christ staring him in the face. He was quite ‘shaken’ by the experience. I did not complete a follow-up re: his change in behavior. [What] we did find with one world-class psychic, who experiences Christ as a component of his abilities, was we could experimentally increase or decrease his numbers of his reported experiences by applying the LTP pattern (derived from the hippocampus) over the right hemisphere (without his awareness). The field on-response delay was about 10 to 20 sec. The optimal pattern, at least for this person, looked very right hippocampal. By far most presences are attributed to dead relatives, the Great Forces, a spirit, or something equivalent.



So, it looks like 80% for this researcher, were affected.

I hope those numbers and findings stand up long term, as it will really help the Mystics to be validated.,

In my life so far, the Mystics know just about as much about God as the world at large, that are not mystical.,

Some know much, some have errors, some do not know God at all, but think they do.

LOVE,

Michael said:

Define the term "supernatural".

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Apart from things physical. Not part of nature.

In what way is M-theory, or QM claims about gravitons, or space expansion claims not a 'supernatural' construct?

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Because they are based on observations of the physical universe. Hence not supernatural.

Gracchus said:

It's been a while, but I seem to remember that what most experienced was a presence. It was a non-specific presence. Such experiences cannot really be put into words, but in order to explain them to others words are used.
The seven blind men started off by saying that the elephant is "very like a spear" and "very like a wall" and "very like a tree", and so on. But eventually, being challenged and contradicted by other testimony their positions hardened and they became certain.

See, for instance:
On Being Certain: Believing You Are Right Even When You're Not
Mar 17, 2009
by Robert A. Burton

and,
Mistakes Were Made (but Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts
Oct 20, 2015
by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson

Click to expand...

Hi,

I just looked up your two reference books.

I understand both points of view and I have experience with people like that.

In our professional lives, those of research and advanced research, that is so weeded out of everyone, that at most, it exists in only the standard naturally occurring 15% of those not in compliance with research methods, the enforced ones, that papers and other scientists use.

LOVE,

Dark Horse Forever said:

PLEASE ANSWER AS HONEST AS POSSIBLE.

THIS IS A SERIOUS QUESTION.

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1) Why all caps?

2) The answer to the question is no.

-CryptoLutheran

Michael said:

Interestingly enough, if you look at it via physics, if the EM carrier particle is the "mechanism" that we associate with the "Holy Spirit", it's still within the realm of empirical physics.

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Empirical physics? Doubtful. But it'd certainly be heretical.

-CryptoLutheran

Michael said:

The same argument applies to *all* areas of hypothetical physics.

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This thread isn't about all areas of physics. Please don't drag yet another thread off topic with your obsessions.

If the holy spirit is some kind of psycho-spiritual brain event, then I think it could be explained scientifically.

OTOH if its a real supernatural spirit, then normal physical science cant really grasp it.

durangodawood said:

OTOH if its a real supernatural spirit, then normal physical science cant really grasp it.

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Why can't science grasp it? I see no reason why the Holy Spirit can not have an effect on the natural that we can detect and describe through scientific means. If the Holy Spirit has does not interact with the natural, then it would seem that the Holy Spirit does not interact with humans who are in the natural world.

From where I sit, the supernatural appears to be an invented realm whose purpose is to create false excuse for not having evidence.

Loudmouth said:

Why can't science grasp it? I see no reason why the Holy Spirit can not have an effect on the natural that we can detect and describe through scientific means. If the Holy Spirit has does not interact with the natural, then it would seem that the Holy Spirit does not interact with humans who are in the natural world.

From where I sit, the supernatural appears to be an invented realm whose purpose is to create false excuse for not having evidence.

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We cannot say science has grasped something if all we see is effect effect effect but never the cause. Best it can do is hypothesize.

durangodawood said:

We cannot say science has grasped something if all we see is effect effect effect but never the cause. Best it can do is hypothesize.

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All we see is the effect of gravity, and yet we can study gravity just fine.

katerinah1947 said:

Hi,

I do understand your words and experiences of: I have not, visited or done this in a long time.,

I will post what struck me with the 80% stuff for you, to spare you the boredom of having to go over your old work again, to remember:

These subjects included atheists, as well as religious believers. 80% of the subjects reported the ‘presence’ of ‘nonphysical beings’ in the room where the experiments were conducted, including the ‘presence of God’ in a small number of subjects.”

And:

“Thus far, about 20 or so people have reported feeling the presence of Christ or even seeing him in the chamber (The acoustic chamber where the experimental sessions took place),” says Koren in a recent interview. “Most of these people used Christ and God interchangeably. Most of these individuals were older (30 years or more) and religious (Roman Catholic). One male, age about 35-years-old (alleged atheist but early childhood Roman Catholic training), saw a clear apparition (shoulders and head) of Christ staring him in the face. He was quite ‘shaken’ by the experience. I did not complete a follow-up re: his change in behavior. [What] we did find with one world-class psychic, who experiences Christ as a component of his abilities, was we could experimentally increase or decrease his numbers of his reported experiences by applying the LTP pattern (derived from the hippocampus) over the right hemisphere (without his awareness). The field on-response delay was about 10 to 20 sec. The optimal pattern, at least for this person, looked very right hippocampal. By far most presences are attributed to dead relatives, the Great Forces, a spirit, or something equivalent.



So, it looks like 80% for this researcher, were affected.

I hope those numbers and findings stand up long term, as it will really help the Mystics to be validated.,

In my life so far, the Mystics know just about as much about God as the world at large, that are not mystical.,

Some know much, some have errors, some do not know God at all, but think they do.

LOVE,

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I feel like stuff is watching me sometimes, especially at night or after watching a horror movie. Additionally, if the participants were told what the helmet was for, the expectation of something by itself can psyche people into experiencing it.

Also, they are being watched... by the person doing the experiment. People can feel eyes on them.

Loudmouth said:

All we see is the effect of gravity, and yet we can study gravity just fine.

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I dunno about that. We can see the matter that causes the curvature of space.

durangodawood said:

I dunno about that. We can see the matter that causes the curvature of space.

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We can measure the gravity caused by dark matter without being able to see the dark matter.

Loudmouth said:

We can measure the gravity caused by dark matter without being able to see the dark matter.

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But we're looking for the dark matter with the expectation that we can find it.

The other thing is: the holy ghost as commonly understood is more like an individual person than a generalization about matter. Its actions are defined as not predictable or uniform. How can you set up an experiment to detect the effects of something like that?

Why all these posts referring to the Spirit as an "it?" The scripture describes Him as a "He."

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

John 15:26 But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Loudmouth said:

This thread isn't about all areas of physics. Please don't drag yet another thread off topic with your obsessions.

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It's not off topic at all. Any hypothetical area of "science" simply *assumes* the cause/effect relationship, and the *effect* is then used as a supposed "evidence" of the theoretical constructs. There is no empirical cause/effect demonstration required in "science". You're applying a completely different standard to anything related to the topic of God, Holy Spirit, etc. There is no requirement in science to demonstrate cause/effect relationships *empirically*.