Discussion Can you lose your salvation ? -and all the variance of topic is leads to

Alithis

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tell me this.. when we speak of direct unambiguous sin.. to lie,to covet,to not forgive,to steal,to commit adultery (inappropriate content sexual immorality)
what power on earth can make me do so beyond my own will,seeing that the lord Jesus has set me free?
we were prisoners to sin.
but now we are free by the blood of jesus.no free man can be compelled to serve the one he is set free from.he must choose to do so by his own will.


thanks for the thoughts!
Have a great day in Him!

the things about when we have to read 1 john chapter 3 ..is it defines rather clearly where we are at in God
 
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Alithis

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Alithis said:

then why does scripture warn us of that which cannot happen ?


It doesn't.
It doesn't.

haha talk about a head in the sand approach .
salvation is obtained presently ,by faith " and when the lord returned then we will actualy have it . until then we await the salvation of God .
it is also why there are so many uses of the word "IF" in the scripture . denying they are there wont make them vanish . we have to take them into account to maintain an honest approach .

1 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" -oh thats interesting isint it ..IF you do that you wil never fall .. so what IF you dont ?

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] thatbeareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. .

every branch IN ME ..shows he is not talking to the unbeliever but to the believer you is "in him" . so here is a clear warning .so when you said "it doesnt " (ie it does not warn ) you are incorrect - it clearly DOES .
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I agree that there are consequences for sin... but not all are loss of eternal life.
There are sins that are not unto "spiritual death". Those who sin may endure the corruption in the flesh equal to the sin that they have committed in the flesh.
 
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Alithis

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there are many nuances of the topic i cannot begin to understand ..but one thing i know
there is regret even for those in heaven , though in the midst of immeasurable joy -we wil regret knowing what is right to do .. and not doing it .

and one thing is certain- we can NEVER do what we know is right (and it speaks of the work of the Gospel in every respect) while we are in the employment of sin .
and those who both do not do what is right .. AND do what they know is wrong - are not saved and without repentance never will be .
 
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Winken

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there are many nuances of the topic i cannot begin to understand ..but one thing i know
there is regret even for those in heaven , though in the midst of immeasurable joy -we wil regret knowing what is right to do .. and not doing it .

and one thing is certain- we can NEVER do what we know is right (and it speaks of the work of the Gospel in every respect) while we are in the employment of sin .
and those who both do not do what is right .. AND do what they know is wrong - are not saved and without repentance never will be .


2 Timothy 2:15-16.
 
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Alithis

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2 Timothy 2:15-16.
it is wise to practice advice before giving it .
it was said there are no warning about losing salvation or faith .. -then immediately some were posted . so it is indeed wise to study the word ..as the warnings are certainly there and numerous . why wrn about somthing that cannot happen ?

i strongly advice the parables as a good start . they are sobering .
we forget some times that this is GOD speaking those parables . they are not mere stories .they are words of Absolute truth . the wise and foolish virgins is a good start .
 
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de1929

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can you lose your salvation ?
did you have it in the first place ?

do we have it in present ?
no we have it "by faith "

can we lose it ?
certainly we can ..if it were not so we would not have a conscience which warns us when we stray
if we cannot lose salvation then from what do we stray ? and if, when strayed, from what do we repent ?
and many more questions ..

Let's see this parable in italic:
My dad is a tycoon. I always his son -> This display OSAS, once saved always saved.
I need to earn may dad trust if i want to expand his business. -> work out my salvation. Philippians 2:12


My dad in above context is GOD. We can see GOD as Father (relationship context) or CHRIST (professional context).

Joseph Prince said: no condemnation. It means, if there is a slight of push to make ourselves righteous, it's from devil. I agree with Joseph Prince.
 
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Alithis

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Let's see this parable in italic:
My dad is a tycoon. I always his son -> This display OSAS, once saved always saved.
I need to earn may dad trust if i want to expand his business. -> work out my salvation. Philippians 2:12


My dad in above context is GOD. We can see GOD as Father (relationship context) or CHRIST (professional context).

Joseph Prince said: no condemnation. It means, if there is a slight of push to make ourselves righteous, it's from devil. I agree with Joseph Prince.
i agree with the scriptures .
did you happen to consider the other part of the equation ? why do the scriptures give so many warnings about losing faith ?

its simple really .. you have salvation in so much that you abide in the one who is your salvation and you have it "by faith " you've not actually died yet and been raised again from the dead unto eternal life .. until after the return of the lord JEsus .. as its written even abraham has not yet been clothed in a new immortale body even he has not yet received the fullness of that salvation .
seeing that we have it "by faith".. if we lode faith or do not continue in faith .. we wil lose that which he grasp by faith alone .

it is nothing to do with making ourselves more righteous or not .
 
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de1929

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i agree with the scriptures .
did you happen to consider the other part of the equation ? why do the scriptures give so many warnings about losing faith ?

its simple really .. you have salvation in so much that you abide in the one who is your salvation and you have it "by faith " you've not actually died yet and been raised again from the dead unto eternal life .. until after the return of the lord JEsus .. as its written even abraham has not yet been clothed in a new immortale body even he has not yet received the fullness of that salvation .
seeing that we have it "by faith".. if we lode faith or do not continue in faith .. we wil lose that which he grasp by faith alone .

it is nothing to do with making ourselves more righteous or not .

lose means go to hell / tartarus / gehena or similar dark places ?
 
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turtlejoy

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Let's see this parable in italic:
My dad is a tycoon. I always his son -> This display OSAS, once saved always saved.
I need to earn may dad trust if i want to expand his business. -> work out my salvation. Philippians 2:12


My dad in above context is GOD. We can see GOD as Father (relationship context) or CHRIST (professional context).

Joseph Prince said: no condemnation. It means, if there is a slight of push to make ourselves righteous, it's from devil. I agree with Joseph Prince.
I agree with Scripture on this too. It just so happens Joseph Prince also agrees too. A gift is a gift. God loves us. We're His.
 
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Zugzwang

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This is why I don't aggravate myself any more with these kind of threads. Its like two gunslingers in a Western, where the bullets are bible verses, and the last one standing wins.

If you don't know, or realize that there is a connotation/connection between obedience=believing, that is NOT on those saying OSAS is false. Be a Berean, look it up for yourself. We live in a time where you can study the Greek, at 3 AM in your underwear, and not have to go to seminary to do it! Having said THAT however, we're collectively dumber than ever.

"Well, thats like, your opinion man".

No, its not. I suggest you read 2nd Peter 3.

This same line of thinking led the ones that were brought out of Egypt to die in the desert!

And now I'm opting out of this thread, have at it.
 
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Alithis

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This is why I don't aggravate myself any more with these kind of threads. Its like two gunslingers in a Western, where the bullets are bible verses, and the last one standing wins.

If you don't know, or realize that there is a connotation/connection between obedience=believing, that is NOT on those saying OSAS is false. Be a Berean, look it up for yourself. We live in a time where you can study the Greek, at 3 AM in your underwear, and not have to go to seminary to do it! Having said THAT however, we're collectively dumber than ever.

"Well, thats like, your opinion man".

No, its not. I suggest you read 2nd Peter 3.

This same line of thinking led the ones that were brought out of Egypt to die in the desert!

And now I'm opting out of this thread, have at it.
yeah lol.. it just got so quiet around these parts
 
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Alithis

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I agree with Scripture on this too. It just so happens Joseph Prince also agrees too. A gift is a gift. God loves us. We're His.
there's that head in the sand approach again.. do we only accept scripture as truth when it says one thing we like..or in ALL it says ?

so why are there so many warnings in scripture warning us againt falling away, backsliding ,luke warmness, having no oil in our lamps. enduring till the end to be saved ..if none of these things can happen ? when the scripture also warns so strongly that not only do they happen but we are in a time when huge masses of christendom are living in unrepentant sin and self justifying it (apostasy ). when we choose to only hear the nice stuff we have become those who gather together teachers unto our own liking who tickle our ears and make us feel good ..

so again i ask that question which mostly gets ignored .. why are there so many cautions and warnings in the same scripture againt some thing "some" say .. "can never happen" ? why warn against an impossible eventuality ? do the scriptures lie ?
 
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de1929

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there's that head in the sand approach again.. do we only accept scripture as truth when it says one thing but in ALL it says .

so why are there so many warnings in scripture warning us againt falling away, backsliding ,luke warmness, having no oil in our lamps. enduring till the end to be saved ..if none of these things can happen ? when the scripture also warns so strongly that not only do they happen but we are in a time when huge masses of christendom are living in unrepentant sin and self justifying it (apostasy ). when we choose to only hear the nice stuff we have become those who gather together teachers unto our own liking who tickle our ears and make us feel good ..

so again i ask that question which mostly gets ignored .. why are there so many cautions and warnings in the same scripture againt some thing "some" say .. "can never happen" ? why warn against an impossible eventuality ? do the scriptures lie ?

scripture the way you interpret is that what you mean ?

take a look at this wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

it looks like at least 100 denominations leaders call their interpretation the correct ones.

so what is so special on you, compared to 100 denominations leaders above, that can appeal us to follow you ?
 
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Gideons300

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I think something is being overlooked here and it is this.

What is our attitude towards the sins that "have" us? Is ours a truly repentant heart? Does it bother us when we willingly, knowingly choose to disobey, hiding under an excuse that we are just weak, when in truth perhaps here is no battle any longer?

It is a blood bought privilege to be able to confess our sins and receive forgiveness. Amazing grace! But how many there are, as I have done countless shameful times in the past, who have partaken of the grace of God while at the same time having zero brokenness, let alone a true hatred for that which put our dear savior on the cross. Do we hate our sin? Is there a battle ongoing in our hearts for who will rule there.... us or Christ in us? Our old man, or our new nature?

I have found that many of the doctrinal debates where we see both sides dig in their heels to defend, with both sides claiming scriptural proof, are both true. It is such with the question of whether a man or woman can lose their salvation. What we are in need of seeing is that what reveals the nature of the heart beating inside us is a longing to be holy and totally obedient to our master. It is our desire to please our God, to fellowship Him always, to long like Paul's man in Romans 7 for freedom from the old wretched nature. Here was a man who was truly at war with his old nature. He craved freedom from the grip of the devil. He hungered after righteousness. And that, guys is what saved men do, what sets them apart.

They find it impossible to sin and then simply dismiss it as no biggie, with a cavalier "Well, I am only human and there is no condemnation anyway" attitude. No, no. If and when they stumble, deep inside, they are crying out "Who will deliver me from the body of this death?" They hate the thought of displeasing their Jesus. It crushes them. They hate that part of them that so easily is swayed by evil and long to be free to be His alone.

So how is it in our heart,dear friends? We are at war with an enemy. If there is not a war ongoing in our hearts with our old nature, then we are either abiding in Him, where we find to our amazement and delight, that we Indeed can be kept from falling, just as He promised, or we have strayed from the path, and sin has us for we are still wearing our old natures quite comfortably. Here a man can sin again and again with little or no remorse. Here is turning the grace of God into lasciviousness. Here resides mass deception.... Soon to be lifted.

In the end, I suspect we will see that "once saved always saved" was spot on as was the truth that we need to endure, to seek, to hunger, to press, and it is these things that are the very evidence of our true nature. Both sides are right.

We must understand that there will be multitudes who will be shocked on the last day, swearing they were saved, yet never understanding the truth "Let all who name the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.". They remained ignorant of the truth that God's will for us is that we know how to possess our vessels in sanctification and honor. It is here, at this point, where saved men differ from unsaved ones. We as His children long to be holy so that we can bring more glory to God. And if we find ourselves residing in the camp of the enemy, praise God, it is not too late to leave our folly and run back into the arms of the one who died to make us free indeed.

Blessings,

Gideon
 
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Alithis

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scripture the way you interpret is that what you mean ?

take a look at this wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

it looks like at least 100 denominations leaders call their interpretation the correct ones.

so what is so special on you, compared to 100 denominations leaders above, that can appeal us to follow you ?
wel to be honest i don't have to interpret the scripture on this issue ..just read it .
i have NO desire for you to "follow me " , only the lord JESUS .

after all the topic is about why some say you cant lose your faith (and therefore salvation) and the questions is asked....
why then does the scripture give so many cautions and warning abut something that which "SOME" people say "cant happen " ?

and your reply questions here is simply avoiding answering by attempting to, rather blatantly, make it about "me " . but its not about me it's about what is written in the scripture
it's not about denominations ,institutions or any such thing ..it all about word of God .
 
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de1929

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wel to be honest i don't have to interpret the scripture on this issue ..just read it .
i have NO desire for you to "follow me " , only the lord JESUS .

after all the topic is about why some say you cant lose your faith (and therefore salvation) and the questions is asked....
why then does the scripture give so many cautions and warning abut something that which "SOME" people say "cant happen " ?

and your reply questions here is simply avoiding answering by attempting to, rather blatantly, make it about "me " . but its not about me it's about what is written in the scripture
it's not about denominations ,institutions or any such thing ..it all about word of God .

frankly, what if Joseph Prince interpretation is wrong ? surely i go to hell, then you are in heaven mourning why de1929 didn't listen to alithis earlier :D.

i have been moving denomination at least 2 to 3 times. Born Presbyterian (full OSAS), then charismatics, then wof. Charismatics/wof usually not OSAS. Now I am wof with Joseph Prince grace teachings.

The better question, will i change teacher ? maybe Holy Spirit leads to another new generation preacher that believes back to semi OSAS, or 20% OSAS ? who knows the future ?

back to your questions in bold above, as of year 2016, my expositions is: professional and family context is very different. I already gave parable in my earlier reply. I think that's what scripture want to convey. Why a lot of cautions and warning ? because only in this earth you can become professional. After dead, there is no more way to expand GOD's kingdom on earth.
 
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Alithis

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I think something is being overlooked here and it is this.

What is our attitude towards the sins that "have" us? Is ours a truly repentant heart? Does it bother us when we willingly, knowingly choose to disobey, hiding under an excuse that we are just weak, when in truth perhaps here is no battle any longer?

It is a blood bought privilege to be able to confess our sins and receive forgiveness. Amazing grace! But how many there are, as I have done countless shameful times in the past, who have partaken of the grace of God while at the same time having zero brokenness, let alone a true hatred for that which put our dear savior on the cross. Do we hate our sin? Is there a battle ongoing in our hearts for who will rule there.... us or Christ in us? Our old man, or our new nature?

I have found that many of the doctrinal debates where we see both sides dig in their heels to defend, with both sides claiming scriptural proof, are both true. It is such with the question of whether a man or woman can lose their salvation. What we are in need of seeing is that what reveals the nature of the heart beating inside us is a longing to be holy and totally obedient to our master. It is our desire to please our God, to fellowship Him always, to long like Paul's man in Romans 7 for freedom from the old wretched nature. Here was a man who was truly at war with his old nature. He craved freedom from the grip of the devil. He hungered after righteousness. And that, guys is what saved men do, what sets them apart.

They find it impossible to sin and then simply dismiss it as no biggie, with a cavalier "Well, I am only human and there is no condemnation anyway" attitude. No, no. If and when they stumble, deep inside, they are crying out "Who will deliver me from the body of this death?" They hate the thought of displeasing their Jesus. It crushes them. They hate that part of them that so easily is swayed by evil and long to be free to be His alone.

So how is it in our heart,dear friends? We are at war with an enemy. If there is not a war ongoing in our hearts with our old nature, then we are either abiding in Him, where we find to our amazement and delight, that we Indeed can be kept from falling, just as He promised, or we have strayed from the path, and sin has us for we are still wearing our old natures quite comfortably. Here a man can sin again and again with little or no remorse. Here is turning the grace of God into lasciviousness. Here resides mass deception.... Soon to be lifted.

In the end, I suspect we will see that "once saved always saved" was spot on as was the truth that we need to endure, to seek, to hunger, to press, and it is these things that are the very evidence of our true nature. Both sides are right.

We must understand that there will be multitudes who will be shocked on the last day, swearing they were saved, yet never understanding the truth "Let all who name the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.". They remained ignorant of the truth that God's will for us is that we know how to possess our vessels in sanctification and honor. It is here, at this point, where saved men differ from unsaved ones. We as His children long to be holy so that we can bring more glory to God. And if we find ourselves residing in the camp of the enemy, praise God, it is not too late to leave our folly and run back into the arms of the one who died to make us free indeed.

Blessings,

Gideon
yes ..:)

Hi (B) :D:D missed ya bro .

i think that deception can only be lifted from repentant hearts . for of the unrepentant it says "they gather teachers unrt themselves ".. they do it not God it is thier choice to choose deception.
a non repentant gospel is a lie .
by that i mean a gospel which teaches only grace and excludes repentance from sin .
the comment of how to be saved is repent and be baptised . to repent means to turn away from sin and to TO the Father .

the uncomfortable truth is .. if ewr continue in the practice of sin -we are not Gods

not a popular thing to say as you and I well know .
i have found a verse in the epistles (123 John) of john that is taken so out of context and used so ,much that no one seems to read the rest of his letter
ie- 1 john chapter 3 -were he undeniable states that a person who continues in sin ..does not know God ...
salvation is a journey ..it is those who stay on that journey who will recieve in full the salvation they have presently "by faith " ..lose that faith and we no longer have grasp of anything at all .
 
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