This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

Marvin Knox · Nov 25, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
There are NO examples in Scripture of anyone being regenerated before they believed or were saved. How come "NONE" doesn't seem to make any difference to some?

"A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Acts 16:14

Call it regeneration. Call it the internal call. Call it whatever you want to call it.

It is still crystal clear that God is the one who worked mysteriously within Lydia so that she would respond to the gospel.

The same is true for all of us.

We must be born again by faith in the Word of God in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

But that faith is the evidence of things not seen.

Our response to the gospel is not the "wind". It is only the evidence of the mysterious working of the wind.

"By grace you have been saved through faith" But that is a gift of God lest any man should boast.

FreeGrace2 said:
Again, Eph 2:5 and 8 tell us that being made alive, which is equated with "having been saved" is by grace THROUGH FAITH. So, faith must precede regeneration and salvation.

-57 said, "I must ask you, do you have a verse that specifically says faith proceeds regeneration? That answer is also no."

........... Eph 2:5 and 8 clearly say so.

".......even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;" Ephesians 2:5-8

We are looking right here and now at the verses that you refer to as saying clearly that faith proceeds regeneration. I'm not seeing what you say. Could you point it out for us all to see?

sdowney717 · Nov 25, 2015

Titus 3 really shows the truth about regeneration being only due to His grace and not our faith, works, anything about us. It is only due to His great love for us that He makes us alive who were dead.

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

ToBeLoved · Nov 25, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
Hey, hey, I'm no "she".

That 's' was a typo.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 25, 2015

Isaiah55:6 said:
Oh my bad. I thought you were refuting OSAS

Oh, no. OSAS cannot be refuted.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 25, 2015

Isaiah55:6 said:
Something else that is important. In many verses our sin is related to debt. We are in debt to God because of our sin. Christ's cry from the cross "it is finished" is the Greek word 'tetelestai'. This word has been found on ancient tax receipts meaning ' a debt had been paid in full'. So if our debt is paid in full, that means we no longer owe anything. So how can you lose your salvation if your debt is fully paid?

Well said!! And totally Biblical!

FreeGrace2 · Nov 25, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
"A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Acts 16:14

Call it regeneration. Call it the internal call. Call it whatever you want to call it.

What I won't ever call it is regeneration. Because regeneration, or being "made alive" was equated with "having been saved" by Paul in Eph 2:5. And we know from v.8 that we are saved through faith. So believing precedes salvation/being made alive.

It is still crystal clear that God is the one who worked mysteriously within Lydia so that she would respond to the gospel.

Yes, this isn't debatable. But it isn't regeneration.

The same is true for all of us.

We must be born again by faith in the Word of God in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

But that faith is the evidence of things not seen.

I agree with all 3 statements.

Our response to the gospel is not the "wind". It is only the evidence of the mysterious working of the wind.

OK

"By grace you have been saved through faith" But that is a gift of God lest any man should boast.

I am sure that the gift of God refers back to "we are saved". I say this because Paul also described eternal life as a gift in Rom 6:23. And salvation and eternal life are synonymous practically speaking. iow, they always go together. Can't have one without the other.

".......even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;" Ephesians 2:5-8

Back to v.5 Paul literally equated being "made alive" with "you have been saved". And v.8 gives us the proper order: we are saved (made alive) by grace through faith.

We are looking right here and now at the verses that you refer to as saying clearly that faith proceeds regeneration. I'm not seeing what you say. Could you point it out for us all to see?

How many times? I'll break it down:

1. in v.5 Paul equates 2 phrases; "made us alive" and "you have been saved". I don't see these phrases as meaning different things. If anyone does, please exegete the verse so I can see it.

2. v.8 gives the literal order. We are saved (made alive) through faith. iow, without faith, there is no regeneration.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 25, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Titus 3 really shows the truth about regeneration being only due to His grace and not our faith, works, anything about us. It is only due to His great love for us that He makes us alive who were dead.

We find that faith is the means through which we are made alive, per Eph 2:8.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 25, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
That 's' was a typo.

sheesh.

Marvin Knox · Nov 25, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
What I won't ever call it is regeneration. Because regeneration, or being "made alive" was equated with "having been saved" by Paul in Eph 2:5. And we know from v.8 that we are saved through faith. So believing precedes salvation/being made alive.

I am sure that the gift of God refers back to "we are saved". I say this because Paul also described eternal life as a gift in Rom 6:23. And salvation and eternal life are synonymous practically speaking. iow, they always go together. Can't have one without the other.

Back to v.5 Paul literally equated being "made alive" with "you have been saved". And v.8 gives us the proper order: we are saved (made alive) by grace through faith.

How many times? I'll break it down:

1. in v.5 Paul equates 2 phrases; "made us alive" and "you have been saved". I don't see these phrases as meaning different things. If anyone does, please exegete the verse so I can see it.

2. v.8 gives the literal order. We are saved (made alive) through faith. iow, without faith, there is no regeneration.

I don't see where our being saved by grace refers directly to our being made alive. You see it because you want to see it IMO.

Nor do I see the order you espouse in vs. 8. Again - you see it because you want to see it IMO.

Whoever is right in how they see it - it is obviously not as clear as you say it is in vs. 5 or in vs. 8.

I don't make the assertion that regeneration before faith is shown in these verses. But you make the opposite assertion. The burden of proof that it is taught there is therefore on you. I don't see it - no matter how often you present it.

It strikes me that you are trying to see it there.

We will have to disagree that it is clearly taught there. But I suspect that most - no matter what their persuasion concerning the order of regeneration and faith - will agree with me that it is not clearly taught in those 2 verses.

Isaiah55:6 · Nov 25, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
Well said!! And totally Biblical!

I don't think I've ever met an arminian who hold to OSOS.

However I'm a Calvinist who believes tongues is still for today.

@Mixed breads

FreeGrace2 · Nov 26, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
I don't see where our being saved by grace refers directly to our being made alive. You see it because you want to see it IMO.

Why did you stop reading after the word "grace"? We are saved THROUGH FAITH, which has been my point all along. iow, faith must be present before we are saved. Same as faith is present before we are regenerated.

You don't see it because you don't want to see it IMO.

Nor do I see the order you espouse in vs. 8. Again - you see it because you want to see it IMO.

Apparently you don't understand what "through faith" means then. If faith isn't present, one CANNOT be saved, or regenerated.

Whoever is right in how they see it - it is obviously not as clear as you say it is in vs. 5 or in vs. 8.

It is crystal clear. But some just don't want to see it.

I don't make the assertion that regeneration before faith is shown in these verses.

Because it is not there.

But you make the opposite assertion.

Because it is there.

The burden of proof that it is taught there is therefore on you.

And I've shown it to be true. THROUGH FAITH means just that.

I don't see it - no matter how often you present it.

OK. You don't want to see it.

It strikes me that you are trying to see it there.

One does not have to try to see it. One has to try to not see it.

We will have to disagree that it is clearly taught there.

People can disagree about anything. Doesn't change anything. It's there, perfectly clear.

But I suspect that most - no matter what their persuasion concerning the order of regeneration and faith - will agree with me that it is not clearly taught in those 2 verses.

I'm sure every hardcore Calvinist will agree with you. And everyone else who doesn't understand what "through" means.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 26, 2015

Isaiah55:6 said:
I don't think I've ever met an arminian who hold to OSOS.

I'm not one of them. You might want to google 'free grace theology' to get a sample of my theology. It's neither arminian or calvinism.

However I'm a Calvinist who believes tongues is still for today.

@Mixed breads

Apparently.

I too believe in tongues. I use mine for eating and speaking.

Isaiah55:6 · Nov 26, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm not one of them. You might want to google 'free grace theology' to get a sample of my theology. It's neither arminian or Calvinism.

I'll check it out

ZacharyB · Nov 26, 2015

brotherjerry said:
You will not find one verse that says we can walk away from God.

That is ridiculous!
Paul warns of this possibility dozens of times!
And you've seen the verses!
BTW, are you and the FG2 joined at the hip?
He ignores all kinds of obvious verses also.

sdowney717 · Nov 26, 2015

Isaiah55:6 said:
I'll check it out

I just did, the writer brings up quite a few objections to free grace theology saying they actually deny Christ as Lord in regard to being obedient to Christ in their behavior.
Which means even stopping to believe, some will say such persons are still saved, since at one time they believed.
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/freegrace.html

ZacharyB · Nov 26, 2015

expos4ever said:
One cannot "seize" or "snatch" oneself - only an external agent can do that.

How 'bout an external agent called Satan?
Don't know if we can correctly call him a person.
I'd say he's a spirit.
And ditto for his servants, the demons ... they are really who I'm referring to.

ToBeLoved · Nov 26, 2015

ZacharyB said:
How 'bout an external agent called Satan?
Don't know if we can correctly call him a person.
I'd say he's a spirit.
And ditto for his servants, the demons ... they are really who I'm referring to.

http://biblehub.com/john/10-28.htm
John 10:28-29
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

sdowney717 · Nov 26, 2015

ZacharyB said:
How 'bout an external agent called Satan?
Don't know if we can correctly call him a person.
I'd say he's a spirit.
And ditto for his servants, the demons ... they are really who I'm referring to.

Satan can not even touch anyone born of God in regards to their salvation.
Those born of God are preserved by God through faith and KEPT FOR SALVATION.
People are tempted by evil things is true, but a child of God will be provided by God a means of escape to flee the temptation.

1 Peter 2
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

See we are kept by God for salvation and not for destruction.
God has ownership of you and will not allow you to be lost, if your born of God.
Someone who has no faith shows they are not born of God.

ZacharyB · Nov 26, 2015

sdowney717 said:
I just did (check out the FG2's 'free grace theology'),
the writer brings up quite a few objections to free grace theology saying
they actually deny Christ as Lord in regard to being obedient to Christ
in their behavior. Which means even stopping to believe, some will say such persons are still saved, since at one time they believed.
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/freegrace.html

Just another false doctrine from the very pits of hell.
And many here are wasting their valuable time listening to him,
that is, our very own free grace adherent ... the FG2.

sdowney717 · Nov 26, 2015

Redemption can not be lost for those born of God are sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Ephesians 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

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