Did God create evil?
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Yeah, we covered that already. And it should not be as simple as saying the Bible literally says this in English, so it must mean what it literally says in English. Otherwise we could also say absurd things like God is literally a big yellow chicken. Whatever we claim a verse means, should fit logically with the whole of Scripture and our beliefs founded/revealed from His Word. The idea God does evil in creating creatures that must do evil conflicts with saying He is All Good.
Sp there at least two ways to look at Is 45:7 and apparently you agree with these UR folks here that claim it literally means All Good wants evil and desires for that evil to exist. And evil in this context/thread we restrict (which is part of the other opposing view to Is 45:7) to His having made angels and mankind. The claim is God Himself makes it exist, which means He wants evil to be, which is same as saying desires evil. So then how to explain that which we hold to be ALL Good desiring evil.
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HonestTruth
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God has a dual nature
that which is of flesh is flesh, that which is of spirit is spirit --- meaning something can only come from its source
good can only come from good, evil can only come from evil --- God creates all because he has a dual nature
this is not taught in churches but is clearly taught in the Bible - some may consider this blasphemy but this does accurately reflect biblical teaching
Amos 3:6 = Shall there be an evil in the city and God has not created it?
1 Sam 16:14 = an evil spirit from God tormented him
there can be no other source for evil - just read the Bible
that which is of flesh is flesh, that which is of spirit is spirit --- meaning something can only come from its source
good can only come from good, evil can only come from evil --- God creates all because he has a dual nature
this is not taught in churches but is clearly taught in the Bible - some may consider this blasphemy but this does accurately reflect biblical teaching
Amos 3:6 = Shall there be an evil in the city and God has not created it?
1 Sam 16:14 = an evil spirit from God tormented him
there can be no other source for evil - just read the Bible
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Well this is different but it is still saying God creates evil - does evil - you just allow He is able to do so because of the alleged dual nature. Am unaware of any orthodox/traditional Christian teaching of God having flesh - so this would be another controversial theology teaching.
But do you see then only what you are calling His spirit nature as being All Good, and therefore freeing His "flesh" nature to do evil?
And by the way do you also support UR?
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HonestTruth
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Cannot say that I entirely support the concept of UR simply because much of what I've seen in my tragic life does not square with what the Bible teaches. For me to explain would entail me giving you personal information and I'm not comfortable with doing that.
As for your other question, again, the answer is already in the Bible. There is no need to speculate on any of that.
As for your other question, again, the answer is already in the Bible. There is no need to speculate on any of that.
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No need to divulge and am sorry for your suffering.
I need clarification to understand clearly what you posted, where you are coming from - not justification/explanation from scripture. And I want to sure I am not speculating regarding what you said.
Am understanding you to say God has two natures, one of spirit and the other of flesh. Am understanding you to say God is All Good, but that Goodness only true of the "spirit nature" of God. Which leaves any evil one wants to attribute to Him assigned to what you refer to as His "flesh nature". So am asking if I got that much right?
I would also presume at some point God is either "freed" from this "flesh nature" or that nature is cleansed. Is that correct?
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1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
Did Satan provoke David, or was David moved by God to number Israel?
2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
Did Satan provoke David, or was David moved by God to number Israel?
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Satan works against Good - the sworn enemy of God. Satan provoked David in a successful attempt to divide His chosen people, set them against their king for provoking God's Justice - the wages of sin are death - 70k of David's subjects died because of his foolish pride.
God does not "tempt" people to sin or set them up to fail, which is sort of my point regarding Him having Adam a perfect man, which Adam could have remained forever had he not chosen to sin. God tempting man would represent Him being directly responsible for the result - evil. Which as we both have already agreed - even if we do not agree how evil is explained - that God does not "create" that kind of evil.
In this case the writer and typical of many OT writers, writes about God and God's "actions" in terms we understand - so they are often assigning human attributes to God by doing that - so much so a word was coined to describe that - anthropomorphology. So whatever else we think 2Samuel 24 conveys, it cannot be said to contradict what we already agreed is true about God - He cannot be the author of evil - He cannot tempt David. However, God can certainly know what will be, including what Satan will do. And yes God can use even evil acts of man or fallen angels to do Good for His Glory - often allowing evil for a Greater Good/Glory that may not be presently clear to us.
In this case the writer of 2 Samuel expresses God's anger towards Israel because of what their king does (which recall He told them they did not need a king but they demanded one), to resolve the dilemma you suggest exists for us with these two verses is simply that God allowed Satan to tempt David in order to spank His people - a lesson.
So the "moving" Samuel 24 reflects on can only be understood as allowing David to sin, which occurred just as the Chronicle writer says - because (God allowed is a given) Satan to tempt David. And this is a not unique reflection on those verses from Catholic theologians understanding, I think you will find Protestant theologians saying the same thing.
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I got a discussion going over in the Messianic Judaism section that I think you will enjoy and find encouraging......... The opening post begin with a quotation from that same near death experiencer.......... then we get into the theory of at least some of the fallen angels returning to God.
I guess my point.... is that if the theory of fallen angels being granted repentance is valid........ then perhaps like The Apostle Paul they may have an astonishing zeal to obey after they are given repentance??????
Yom Kippur/The Rapture connection?!
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/yom-kippur-the-rapture-connection.7647325/
....
I had been fasting on Yom Kippur since the late 1970's and I had always wondered what this verse could possibly mean:
Leviticus 16:10 RSV"but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Aza'zel."
In a nutshell I have came to strongly suspect that Azazel is the fallen angel who will be somewhat like General Abner who brought the ten tribes over to King David or to Rav Shaul/Paul who repented of persecuting Christians and followers of God.
I suspect that when the fallen angel Azazel returns to the God of Abraham with his whole heart...when Yom Kippur is completely fulfilled....then a major step will have been taken toward the ushering in of a truly new era of worldwide peace where even the eating habits of wild animals like lions will be altered!
Matthew 12)
"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?"
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
2knowhim,
1. God is showing Job that he is in control as creator, but this has nothing to do with man not having freewill. Man was created with intelligence, reason and choice.
2. Satan was a created being and had the same.
3. Evil is not a substance and thus was not created in that sense. God is not the author of sin or evil. Satan is called the Father of lies and he is the first one to sin and sin is always assessed to the one sinning and not God for he cannot be tempted of sin or sin and not responsible for sin or could not be right in attacking or getting rid of sin.
4. God could know that Satan would have the possibility to sin and he did. Also, it could be for the fact of destroying sin for good was why he allowed sin. The foundation of evil being allowed would most likely come from creating angels and men with intelligence, reason and choice instead of robots.
5. Isaiah 45 that says God created evil should be calamity. All through scriptures God brings calamity as judgement. Jerry kelso
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If God Who is Good did not exist, then Evil would not exist, but because God has always been, then so has evil.
For this reason was The Son of God made manifest, to take away the power from the one who had the power of Death and that is the devil or Evil. Evil has been a very real presence along side of God from before the world was.
But now, through The Son He has put that old foe, that enemy under His feet.
For this reason was The Son of God made manifest, to take away the power from the one who had the power of Death and that is the devil or Evil. Evil has been a very real presence along side of God from before the world was.
But now, through The Son He has put that old foe, that enemy under His feet.
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So you have said and it does address the existence of evil without attributed it to All Good (God).
I, along with most orthodox believers of course, do not agree that the existence of All Good makes evil a necessity. I see evil as being the relative absence of Good. So if there is no absence, everything would be Very Good, then there would be no evil. Similar to light, if everything was fully illuminated there could be no darkness. In fact darkness only "is" if and ONLY as long as something is acting to block the Light. Remove that block and the Light instantly reveals there was really nothing real there which we could call darkness. The only thing real is whatever is creating dark by acting to block the Light. Note that the Light can take no part/role in the blocking of itself. So in this view evil is not a necessity just because Good exists - meaning it does NOT have to be. Just like the existence of Light does not require darkness to exist. And this view of Good makes it possible to see God making a place where there is no evil, even if He also makes it possible for evil to come to be and corrupt such a place - it is still only a potential before that corruption occurs. Until someone created chooses to make evil a reality, effectively blocking Goodness.
It is also true in this view that "pure evil" does not really exist, but rather it is an expression for the total lack of Good - as pitch black is an expression of total lack of light. Pitch black can be said to "fill a place" but that place is not really full of anything - the expression means that place is devoid of something real -light. is not a real thing.
I do agree with you that God could remove all evil - which is to say make everything Good and prevent it from being otherwise. He does not typically do that, and when He does it demonstrability - a supernatural intervention - we call it a miracle and attribute it to His action. That He does not always do this and because evil results in suffering, and often unjust suffering - we can say He allows that to occur. And I agree with you that one reason He allows it to occur is that evil can serve to highlight Good and for His Glory. So even though we cannot always see how, I too believe evil must serve a Greater Good for His Glory - otherwise He would not allow it. Which means He can use what His creatures have created (evil) for Good. And I have no problem saying all those things without needing to think that God needs evil to exist in order to be Glorified or for Good to be revealed. In fact I believe a day is coming where He will clean all this up such that from then on, at least in this "world" there would ONLY Good and I could not believe that if I also thought evil is real and that it is necessary that it exist if Good exists.
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Are you saying we as humans created evil? And that you don't see it as something that existed before man was created?
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lutherangerman
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The question of evil is very old and CS Lewis called it the one respectable counter-argument to christianity's claims. It cannot be explained away so easily, because if you attribute it all to God's doing then you have difficulties reconciling that to God's love, and if you attribute it all to man's fault then you have, consequently, unleashed a fear of the punishment of man for the evil he has done.
I would propose that the answer is again Jesus Christ who gave himself for us so that there would be a counter against both sin and evil. The only begotten Son of God came to us, Hallelujah. He is of infinite worth so also the Cross where he laid down his life for us is of infinite worth. That is how there can be a counterweight to all the evil and the resurrection guarantees its success to us because not even our worst could douse the fire of God's love for us humans.
So I would suggest to consider evil an opponent of God and man the recipient of God's grace because God simply loves men and sees Himself as their Father. In that fatherhood and brotherhood and friendship that we find in God lies our salvation and we can breathe freely again. Those who reject God even after they are offered pardon in the judgment after life, will go and satisfy their evil desires in the dark realms of hell. Frequently the saints and angels walk through the doors of the New Jerusalem in order to find souls to bring home with them. But for some, sin and evil are too tasty. In the end they have to die the second death and go through the judgment after death once more. They need new souls and spirits as their old selfs are corrupt and cannot be given life in Heaven.
I would propose that the answer is again Jesus Christ who gave himself for us so that there would be a counter against both sin and evil. The only begotten Son of God came to us, Hallelujah. He is of infinite worth so also the Cross where he laid down his life for us is of infinite worth. That is how there can be a counterweight to all the evil and the resurrection guarantees its success to us because not even our worst could douse the fire of God's love for us humans.
So I would suggest to consider evil an opponent of God and man the recipient of God's grace because God simply loves men and sees Himself as their Father. In that fatherhood and brotherhood and friendship that we find in God lies our salvation and we can breathe freely again. Those who reject God even after they are offered pardon in the judgment after life, will go and satisfy their evil desires in the dark realms of hell. Frequently the saints and angels walk through the doors of the New Jerusalem in order to find souls to bring home with them. But for some, sin and evil are too tasty. In the end they have to die the second death and go through the judgment after death once more. They need new souls and spirits as their old selfs are corrupt and cannot be given life in Heaven.
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No, Adam was not created with any evil in him at all - otherwise it could not be said he was Very Good, nor could we suggest Adam was made to love, serve and know Good if Good is also said to have made that man even a little evil.
I have and still say All Good making creatures with a free will requires that the creature is free to choose to do right or wrong - which requires the knowledge of what is right and wrong. And I have maintained that your view seemed at first to require we were created evil because, unlike you I did not view evil as existing in this world before the rebellion of angels and Adam against their Creator. Now I understand you might be saying Adam was created good, (lacking evil) and that the "Evil enity", which pre-existed Creation (with God), tempted Adam causing the outcome we call the Fall.
No, I believe there was nothing - just God - and then He started creating. The evil which exists is nothing but the resulting pain and suffering caused by the acts of some of the creatures He made. Since He made many angels and not all rebelled and Jesus represents a man who never rebelled (a case could be made for other people to some lessor degree) - it is obvious that a free will creature can indeed love, serve and know God without sinning - which if we say that is what He wants us to do for us to be Happy - then it makes sense He would made the first man able to do that and because that man failed, His plan in making man included saving the race to not only restore us to being able to do that - but also remove/separate the resulting evil from His Creation entirely (hell).
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he-man
he-man
(In N.T. the future punishment of sin is clearly defined as death and destruction.) (non occ.) ολεθρευω ολοθρευω destroy; *ολεθριος, [for ολεθρος, 2 Thes. i.9, see destruction] Bullinger P. 971. Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Psa 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Mt 13:28. He said unto them,A man, an enemy hath done this—Kind words these from a good Husbandman, honorably clearing His faithful servants of the wrong done to his field.
The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?—Compare with this the question of James and John (Lk 9:54), "Lord, wilt Thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume" those Samaritans? In this kind of zeal there is usually a large mixture of carnal heat. (See Jas 1:20).
29. But he said, Nay—"It will be done in due time, but not now, nor is it your business."
lest, while ye gather up the tares so the wheat with them—Nothing could more clearly or forcibly teach the difficulty of distinguishing the two classes, and the high probability that in the attempt to do so these will be confounded.
30, 39. Let both grow together—that is, in the visible Church. until the harvest—till the one have ripened for full salvation, the other for destruction. (See on Mt 13:39). and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers—(See on Mt 13:39).
Gather ye together first the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up—"in the fire" (Mt 13:40).
but gather the wheat into my repository—Christ, as the Judge, will separate the two classes (as in Mt 25:32). It will be observed that the tares [cheats] are burned up before the wheat is housed; in the exposition of the parable (Mt 13:41, 43) the same order is observed: and the same in Mt 25:46—as if, in some literal sense, "with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked" (Ps 91:8).
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned up.
DR. WILLIAM SMITH'S DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE;
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
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God first creates the heavens and the earth but the earth was formless, void and darkness hovered over it. He then creates light and he says for the first time that this is good.
Many believe the creation account is more allegory then literally so if we are to take this account as simplifying into poetry and symbols then for sure light is representation of that which is good and darkness is representation of evil.
One important thing to take note is the account never says God created darkness yet it still "was over the face of the deep". He did create light which God immediately contrasts and separates away from darkness. This seems a little odd since light always contrasts darkness and you don't have to physically separate it for it to be separated. As we read on we discover that this "separation" is of day for light and night for darkness which can echo the separatIon of sin and righteousness where any amount of blemish is no longer righteousness. There is no room for grey areas and instead a clear light/dark, day/night, wheat/chaff, sheep/goat separation.
This shows us that God is pure light and has nothing to do with darkness yet darkness still exists but through it God sends light.
Many believe the creation account is more allegory then literally so if we are to take this account as simplifying into poetry and symbols then for sure light is representation of that which is good and darkness is representation of evil.
One important thing to take note is the account never says God created darkness yet it still "was over the face of the deep". He did create light which God immediately contrasts and separates away from darkness. This seems a little odd since light always contrasts darkness and you don't have to physically separate it for it to be separated. As we read on we discover that this "separation" is of day for light and night for darkness which can echo the separatIon of sin and righteousness where any amount of blemish is no longer righteousness. There is no room for grey areas and instead a clear light/dark, day/night, wheat/chaff, sheep/goat separation.
This shows us that God is pure light and has nothing to do with darkness yet darkness still exists but through it God sends light.
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"God created evil" is said with an absolute sense of sovereignty. It means that God sets up things which allowing whoever evil to show up such that they can be destroyed once and for all.
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1213
Disciple of Jesus
I would rather say, God made evil possible.
In this matter I think it is good to understand what evil really means. Evil is like darkness or emptiness or nothing. It is lack of good, truth and love (or with one word God). If God allows people to reject him and so choose darkness, it is people’s choice that creates darkness. God forms it by allowing people to choose it. So darkness is not really something of God, but rather lack of God.
One example of this is the book of Job. As it tells, Satan asks permission from God to do the evil things Satan wanted. God allowed it and so Satan went and did what he wanted, many evil things. The evil things were not from God, but God made it possible by not preventing them.
Similarly, when people reject God, light, they get darkness. Darkness is “formed”, when “light” steps aside. God forms “darkness” by not letting his “light” shine. And so, nothing evil is from God, but God’s actions can make room for darkness/emptiness/evil. When God “shines”, there is no room for evil.
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2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
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