Did God create evil?

[DrBubbaLove]

Hillsage, 2knowhim and others in defense of Universal Reconciliation (UR), have argued that God created evil.

I have defended the traditional orthodox view that God is All Good and maintain that one cannot say that God is All Good and believe He creates the opposite. Certainly evil is a part of our reality, but it directly caused by the acts of God's creatures rather than God Himself. The only thing one can say God did in that regard is to give those creatures (angels and us) the freedom to love Him or not. It would be the not loving All Good which brings evil from purely a potential to reality.

 

[RC1970]

Certainly God is Good, and there is no concept of good apart from God. However, does God owe His Goodness to His creatures? Could God have made humans altogether good?

 

[ob77]

Hillsage, 2knowhim and others in defense of Universal Reconciliation (UR), have argued that God created evil.

I have defended the traditional orthodox view that God is All Good and maintain that one cannot say that God is All Good and believe He creates the opposite. Certainly evil is a part of our reality, but it directly caused by the acts of God's creatures rather than God Himself. The only thing one can say God did in that regard is to give those creatures (angels and us) the freedom to love Him or not. It would be the not loving All Good which brings evil from purely a potential to reality.

Satan is the culprit. Jealous of the sons of God, he chose to find a way to make himself as important or more important than God. Read of the King of Tyre. It can be discussing none other than Satan, who was once was Lucifer, the bright and shining one, protector and guardian of the Throne, who, by his own wishes and desires, conceived of a way to sway the sons of God to his way of thinking, but only a third of those sided with Satan. This leads us to here, the children of God in the flesh to make up our minds as to whether we serve our Father , or Satan. God is not the author of evil, nor confusion.
Satan is the author of everything contrary to God, and Satan's own offspring are carrying out his will to this day. Everything that is contrary to God is evil, but it is framed in such a way that those not familiar with God's law will easily succumb to that which is evil, though they do not conceive it as such.

 

[Sophrosyne]

The culprit is the lousy translation of the KJV of one scripture which other translations use words that don't mean evil but rather a bad situation (calamity). One would have to contend the plagues God created via Moses in Egypt was "Evil" in this ideology but I'm betting those people reject those plagues as "evil" they would be considered calamities which is what most modern translation use instead of the KJV "evil".

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Satan is the culprit. Jealous of the sons of God, he chose to find a way to make himself as important or more important than God. Read of the King of Tyre. It can be discussing none other than Satan, who was once was Lucifer, the bright and shining one, protector and guardian of the Throne, who, by his own wishes and desires, conceived of a way to sway the sons of God to his way of thinking, but only a third of those sided with Satan. This leads us to here, the children of God in the flesh to make up our minds as to whether we serve our Father , or Satan. God is not the author of evil, nor confusion.
Satan is the author of everything contrary to God, and Satan's own offspring are carrying out his will to this day. Everything that is contrary to God is evil, but it is framed in such a way that those not familiar with God's law will easily succumb to that which is evil, though they do not conceive it as such.

Thank you and if I understood, I am not opposed to any save maybe letting off Adam and mankind a bit too lightly. I agree Satan lie and created in the mind of Adam the thought that perhaps something Adam knew to not good for him was actually something to be envied/desired. I would agree that any act, including that of any human, contrary to God is an evil act.

Am still waiting to hear from the part of the UR crowd wanting to claim God created evil.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Certainly God is Good, and there is no concept of good apart from God. However, does God owe His Goodness to His creatures? Could God have made humans altogether good?

I would say no, God does not owe any of His attributes to anything. He is. God's attributes are all Perfect and Absolute - so He could not owe any of it to something external to Himself. God is All Good, and was so before He made anything. I would agree that His Goodness does in essence, illuminate all evil - as Light can be said to "reveal" darkness.

I think Adam represents God's best effort because I can not fathom a God that would do anything with less than His Best. As such and in keeping with the idea that He made us to love, serve and know Him - it follows that as originally created and up until Adam rebelled (as Satan had already at that point), yes Adam was altogether good. Adam's body and soul were in perfect alignment as a united whole and in alignment with God. Until Adam chose to rebel.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The culprit is the lousy translation of the KJV of one scripture which other translations use words that don't mean evil but rather a bad situation (calamity). One would have to contend the plagues God created via Moses in Egypt was "Evil" in this ideology but I'm betting those people reject those plagues as "evil" they would be considered calamities which is what most modern translation use instead of the KJV "evil".

I agree, the English language is rather limited compared to Greek and the original Hebrew. However that verse, Isa 45, used by the UR folks to make their claim, which if it does not negate God being All Good it at least places grave doubt upon it. Still waiting to hear from one of these UR guys making this claim.

 

[RC1970]

I would say no, God does not owe any of His attributes to anything. He is. God's attributes are all Perfect and Absolute - so He could not owe any of it to something external to Himself. God is All Good, and was so before He made anything. I would agree that His Goodness does in essence, illuminate all evil - as Light can be said to "reveal" darkness.

I think Adam represents God's best effort because I can not fathom a God that would do anything with less than His Best. As such and in keeping with the idea that He made us to love, serve and know Him - it follows that as originally created and up until Adam rebelled (as Satan had already at that point), yes Adam was altogether good. Adam's body and soul were in perfect alignment as a united whole and in alignment with God. Until Adam chose to rebel.

If Adam was "altogether good" how could he have done something evil? Wouldn't there have to be at least some lack of good for him to have done something evil?

If you recall the Genesis account, when the serpent tempts Eve, God is not present (in some sense). God returns after the temptation and sin of Adam and Eve. We know that God is ubiquitous, so the question is, in what sense was God not present?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

If Adam was "altogether good" how could he have done something evil? Wouldn't there have to be at least some lack of good for him to have done something evil?

If you recall the Genesis account, when the serpent tempts Eve, God is not present (in some sense). God returns after the temptation and sin of Adam and Eve. We know that God is ubiquitous, so the question is, in what sense was God not present?

Good question. Probably grossly summarizing, but I think the traditional answer has been something along the line that like the angels, God made man free to choose to love Him or not. So while both the angels and Adam (as originally made) were in perfect alignment with He is All Good, they were still free to choose of themselves whether to remain that way. Of course not loving Him means not loving He Who is All Good. So while we must admit God allowed for the POTENTIAL of evil in creating both angels and mankind in this manner, it does not mean evil was certain - which it would be had God made some other way - less than good/perfect - another way of saying "not good" - and not matter how much "not good" one claims God made them that degree could only be called evil. So it would mean God made them that way, evil and so such a view has God creating evil. And certainly if God made Adam even a "little evil" or even just "bent/inclined to evil" as we are now then it makes no sense to suggest He made such a creature to love, serve and know Him because the deck is stacked against the creature before it is made.

No, if we accept the traditional notion that God made Adam to love, serve and know ALL Good(Him), then it makes no sense to suggest He would not have started with a creature completely able to do so - meaning among other things Holy. So no, not until Adam sin could we say that his nature becomes corrupted, to the point that corruption passes on an inclination to sin to all subsequent generations of man.

The story might not reference God's presence at that moment, but even as you alluded to, He obviously must have been "present". God allowing evil does not mean He approves and clearly He intends to make all His creatures account for the resulting evil of our acts. So I do not think His allowing Satan to interfere with mankind as described in this story should trouble us or make us question His reason for making us. Scripture indicates both Satan his original goodness and that he was allowed (by God) to lead a revolt of angels which resulted at some point with a goodly number of them being cast out of "Heaven". And obviously that revolt had already occurred prior to these events in the Garden as Satan is already seen set against God.

Remember also this is a story passed down from the ages before mankind had writing skills. So certainly all the Christian thoughts regarding God's nature, the meanings behind the story had yet to form and we could hardly fault the story tellers for lacking the lens of Christianity in the telling. The story (actually two) is written more in the style of a legend than of precise detailed account of all that has since be revealed to mankind about God and also our purpose for existing.

 

[James Is Back]

Short answer-no
Long answer-no no no no and triple no

So in closing no God did not create evil!

 

[timewerx]

According to Gnostics, Sophia accidentally created an evil fake gduty. This gduty promotes materialism so if you think material things are good in any degree, you probably worship this gduty.

In the thebook, this evil was allowed and not destroyed (yet) in order to promote the growth of the saints. Evil is the fire that purifies the gold (saints)

There's a saying goes "what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger" something like that.

In science, difficult (evil) times, hasten adaptive mutations of a creatures which makes it stronger and more able to cope with its environment.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

According to Gnostics, Sophia accidentally created an evil fake gduty. This gduty promotes materialism so if you think material things are good in any degree, you probably worship this gduty.

In the thebook, this evil was allowed and not destroyed (yet) in order to promote the growth of the saints. Evil is the fire that purifies the gold (saints)

There's a saying goes "what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger" something like that.

In science, difficult (evil) times, hasten adaptive mutations of a creatures which makes it stronger and more able to cope with its environment.

invite

invite

May misunderstand, but the question is not why God allows evil to exist, but whether or not He created it. Some holders of the Universal Reconciliation belief claim that God created evil. I started this post for them to explain/defend that belief and specifically answer how God could be seen as All Good and at same time be said to create evil. Those individuals have yet to comment.

 

[2KnowHim]

I have said all along God is Good, and because He is Good, then the opposite of that which is Evil would exist.
For God knew Evil long before any of us did, and that includes the angels. As I have stated many times Dr. if Paul found a law that when he would choose to do good evil was present with him, then I'm sure God knew this way before Paul did.

If God sees the End from the Beginning, which He does Isa,46:10 then inspite the fact that all of creation would be subject to this law too, He also supplied us with The Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.
That means He also did away with evil through that lamb once and for all. Way Before it ever began. This can be seen in Gen.1:26 & 27 God's End is always better than His beginning. He saves the best for last.

Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
Joh 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.


God takes responsibility for the evil that would come about because He chose to Create, He did this through His Son.
And I have no problem at all with this, because we look on things not seen, instead of things that are seen.

I'm an Artist, I love to create beautiful paintings, but before I start, the creation takes place within me, in my "mind's eye" so to speak. And as long as it stays there, it is Perfect, but once I put brush to canvas and begin to bring that image out of myself, now it becomes exposed to the elements around it. It can also be something that can cause controversy, be subject to decay, sunlight, etc. etc.........Unless it's Sealed..... Even though I want to share my gift, I still know the things that can happen to it once it comes forth. And for this it makes me sad, sometimes even makes me wish that I never created it to begin with when I see someone take it for granted or treat it as if it didn't matter. But, that doesn't stop me from doing it, because it's who I am.

It didn't stop God either, unlike me, God has had a plan Through His Holy Spirit to Seal us unto the Day of Redemption.
God took responsibility for All Evil, When He sent forth His Son for us All. He paid the price for His Creation with His own Life, so that His Masterpiece would be saved.

We should never let the process interfere with seeing The Purpose, in The End it is All Good, Very Good.

 

[timewerx]

but the question is not why God allows evil to exist, but whether or not He created it.

Assuming that God can see the future, the answer would be yes.

Even if indirectly, knowing that one act will lead to another, you are accountable for that. Just like someone who is an expert at the game of chess or billiards who can see several moves ahead.

 

[Wgw]

The Orthodox view is that God is pure love, but the one thing God cannot force us to do is to accept his love and love him in return - if He could, it would not be love, but coerced adulation.

If one turns against God's love and moves away from God, one embraces evil. And when we rurn against God, the uncreated energies of love, which are normally experienced as love, instead are experienced as wrath; God is a consumimg fire in which those who reject his love will burn, not because He ultimately desires it, but because the rejection of all good things, of creation itself, defiles one and can separate one from this divine love eternally, causing one to be resurrected not unto everlasting life but torment. This is why we must repent (the Greek metanoia literally suggests a change of direction; we must turn to accept the uncreated energy of God and reciprocate His love, experiencing the divine bliss this produces).

However, Satan, who was the first to reject the love of God, and who rejected it to the most extreme extent possible, continually tempts us with worldy passions, making this change of direction harder. God permits this, so that the voluntary nature of our choice is more apparent, and that our faith might be tried in the fire; Christ is the supreme Physician, and by allowing us to be tempted, ensures that we have the opportunity to progressively rid ourselves of the diseases of sin, through the grace of the Holy Spirit conferred individually and sacramentally in His Church, so that we might be able to properly respond to the purity of God's love and be resurrected into the sinless, blissful state of eternal life at the Day of Judgement.

So in short, good is moving towards and embracing divine love, cooperating with the uncreated energies of God, whereas evil is spurning divine love, which one can be tricked into doing by the demons, posing as deities and subjecting us to temptations and false spiritual experiences in order to lead us to destruction. The devil and demons, and a few deranged humans, have become so twisted by the sickness that results from the rejection of divine love that evil in and of itself gives them pleasure, and this motivates them to attack us, that they may have their pound of flesh as it were. And thus people like the jihadis of ISIL are deceived into believing they are worshipping God by burning people alive in cages, torturing and killimg Christians amd Yazidis, and so on.

 

[JaapAap]

Assuming that God can see the future, the answer would be yes.

Even if indirectly, knowing that one act will lead to another, you are accountable for that. Just like someone who is an expert at the game of chess or billiards who can see several moves ahead.

Yes except when He didn't know.
It does say He declares the end from the beginning but from the texts I can't make that that means also before He started to recreate earth and created this world.
If God is all good and if He created Adam in His sight why was Adam innocent, not knowing good and evil?
Knowing evil in Genesis means knowing by experience.
If God knew evil by doing it Himself He would be evil. Only way He could have known evil by experience is when Lucifer fell and He experienced it.

 

[Wgw]

It should also be stressed that the omniscience of God is irrelevant to this debate, because omnipotence trumps omniscience; yes, God can know whether or not we will choose to love him, but he can also give us the choice on our own. But it is reasonable that he does allow himself the knowledge of the ending of things, and based on this, being infinitely good, has selected the best path, according to criteria of virtue and moral perfection that transcend human comprehension (not some mere divine Utilitarianism). However, we still posess effective free will, being finite beings of limited knowledge, and thus the choice to humbly turn to our loving Father or instead plot against our brothers and sisters and devise ways of harming them for our benefit, is ours to make.

 

[elopez]

The question is nonsensical in the first place. "Evil" is not a thing that is created. What we mean here is, what exactly? Moral evil? Natural evil? Something else? Most would think moral evil.

Moral evil is the "result of any morally negative event caused by the intentional action or inaction of an agent." When we ask this question, what we really are asking is, "Did God engage in the first event that resulted in a morally negative result?" I believe the clear answer to that is a resounding "no."

Yet there are those that want to answer with the affirmative, yet that would only mean they have to show such. The question then becomes what that first act exactly was. And to show it is morally evil.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I agree, the English language is rather limited compared to Greek and the original Hebrew. However that verse, Isa 45, used by the UR folks to make their claim, which if it does not negate God being All Good it at least places grave doubt upon it. Still waiting to hear from one of these UR guys making this claim.

I think one issue is how Adam as created in the image of God would be flawed with the inclusion of evil. It does help ones argument if this is so that Adam was flawed to begin with that would make God totally responsible for any actions Adam had (sin) because Adam's nature was that of sin (evil) to begin with. I think the huge stumbling block to such thinking lies in the face of the evidence that God himself throughout the Bible and New Testament equates man himself must strive to "not sin" (or do evil) or be punished for it (put to death for sinning in some cases) and that man is required to accept God as his savior or forfeit eternal life with him. UR rejects this notion putting a rather insane blind eye to verses that require choice to undo choice. Choice is not seen by them as the vehicle of sin or evil one could say to the UR standing man is unable to choose for himself evil or good because his flawed nature has him unable to responsibly do so and in that effort should not be judged and condemned (and responsible) for his evil acts therefore God is required to be responsible for ALL evil and thus required to save ALL mankind. This notion reduces man's choice to essentially irrelevant in nature. The UR position has God saving everyone or at least most people even to the point of saving people who choose to have nothing to do with God by their acts proving their defiance of all that is good and God.

 

[2KnowHim]

This notion reduces man's choice to essentially irrelevant in nature. The UR position has God saving everyone or at least most people even to the point of saving people who choose to have nothing to do with God by their acts proving their defiance of all that is good and God.

Concerning man's choice or free will as most call it, ....You have not read or took to heart what He said to Job have you?

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
Job 38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
Job 38:10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
Job 38:11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
Job 38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
Job 38:14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
Job 38:15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
Job 38:18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
Job 38:19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
Job 38:20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
Job 38:21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
Job 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
Job 38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
Job 38:24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
Job 38:25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
Job 38:26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
Job 38:27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
Job 38:28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
Job 38:29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
Job 38:30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
Job 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
Job 38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?