Cebuanos Rallying up Against Same Sex Marriage

kiwimac said:

Yes, it must otherwise the Dark Ages are just around the corner again. We should have learned from the last time Governments were part of the national religious structure of a nation just what that leads to.

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Troll somewhere else, this is the Catholic forum.

Azureknight 773 said:

Thank you all for the positive response. It is also enforced by my country's president himself and the Palace (albeit, I really hate him for his vindicative nature and some of his policies):
http://www.journal.com.ph/news/nation/aquino-not-keen-on-legalizing-gay-marriage-malacanang

http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/stor...-sex-marriages-done-in-other-countries-palace

This at least makes me say that he is good for not letting it happen.

By law, this itself is illegal and unconstitutional for in my country, a President herself spoke:

"
EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. 209

THE FAMILY CODE OF THE PHILIPPINES July 6, 1987


I, CORAZON C. AQUINO, President of the Philippines, by virtue of the powers vested in me by the Constitution, do hereby order and promulgate the Family Code of the Philippines, as follows:

TITLE IMARRIAGE

Chapter 1. Requisites of Marriage

Article 1. Marriage is a special contract of permanent union between a man and a woman entered into in accordance with law for the establishment of conjugal and family life. It is the foundation of the family and an inviolable social institution whose nature, consequences, and incidents are governed by law and not subject to stipulation, except that marriage settlements may fix the property relations during the marriage within the limits provided by this Code.(52a)
"


A local priest of mine in my diocese said these words (paraphrased) "It is indeed good to have a lot of money yet do not make it your own god for your own desire of it will consume and blind you in your path". I agree with him a lot.

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I like your Constitution.
Ours didnt hear of such things [SSM] so of course who would have thot they needed to add such a thing.
But our Declaration of Indepedence [from the same men] spoke adequately to comprehend.

I'm glad your country isnt giving in.

If the Philippines can pass a law calling marriage a heterosexual institution without it being unconstitutional then all the power too them!

The West has shown they'll spend money and influence to convert nations like the Philippines to accept evils like SSM and abortion. The sooner this becomes a law the better.

Armoured said:

Ah. Because theocracy has such a good track record.

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MikeK said:

Muslim values too. This is, after all, the Philippines.

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Ha. I wonder if the pro- side ever considered how powerful a weapon this could have been against entrenched reactionary neocons? "You know, sharia law bans same sex marriage ?"
"

LivingWordUnity said:

Big money is behind the global push for so-called "same-sex marriage" which includes super-billionaires, the mainstream media, and nearly every major corporation. So it is like David going up against Goliath. But we must continue resisting it anyway.

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and the Catholic Church is such a small group of people.
Hang on, that doesn't sound right b

kiwimac said:

Yes, it must otherwise the Dark Ages are just around the corner again. We should have learned from the last time Governments were part of the national religious structure of a nation just what that leads to.

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So what does it lead to? I'm wondering here, for there hasn't been too many theocracies attempted in history, especially Christian ones. So I wonder what would really be so bad about one? Especially considering the absolutely horrible track record of secular governments.

ebia said:

and the Catholic Church is such a small group of people.
Hang on, that doesn't sound right b

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Considering that The great Protestant Churches all abandoned the Catholic Church in this battle, the coalition could have been bigger.

Erose said:

So I wonder what would really be so bad about one?

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Because power corrupts. When there is no accountability most people end up powerless, the system builds up the power of the powerful, ...

Erose said:

Considering that The great Protestant Churches all abandoned the Catholic Church in this battle, the coalition could have been bigger.

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And if everyone agreed to fight for any other thing the coalition would have been bigger.

Your point?

ebia said:

Because power corrupts. When there is no accountability most people end up powerless, the system builds up the power of the powerful, ...

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I'm assuming you mean the Catholic Church?
The Church didnt have power as some may think.
Their power was keeping ppl free amongst the governmental forces who would have liked otherwise.
They didnt hold any position in the governments - but they had great influence - which brot us free ppl in spite of the over bearing of the government.
They came up with moral laws to keep the poor from injustices.

IE - they kept the government in check. Most ppl watch the Hunchback of Notre Dame and think that's how it was.

WarriorAngel said:

I'm assuming you mean the Catholic Church?

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I was making a generally true statement.

kiwimac said:

Yes, it must otherwise the Dark Ages are just around the corner again. We should have learned from the last time Governments were part of the national religious structure of a nation just what that leads to.

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the "Dark Ages"? hmmm not sure what you are talking about
there have been many ages where the darkness of human sin have shown through
the Reign of Terror in France was a dark time for many people
the rise of the Soviet Union brought injustice and murder along with it
the persecutions of Catholics in Mexico during the 1920's
the forced agricultural policies of China's "Great Leap Forward" caused a 3 year famine that killed somewhere between 20 and 40 million people

as for Christianity helping to inform the morals and laws of a society
we can look at the history from Late Antiquity until the Early Modern period
such a vast span of time, we can see many examples of religion being used in a responsible fashion, with the Church acting as a counterbalance to the other interest groups
and we can see examples of religion being abused or corrupted by secular influence
in fact, I would say in most periods of history, you can see both to greater or lesser extents

ebia said:

Because power corrupts. When there is no accountability most people end up powerless, the system builds up the power of the powerful, ...

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You are right. We are seeing the results of no accountability corrupting this country's Supreme Court.


Anyway the problem with your assertion is that there wouldn't be accountability in a theocracy. My question is how would there not be? One of the problems with assessing what a Christian theocracy would be like, is that we really haven't seen one in history. The closest would be the Vatican states. But on a large scale, we haven't seen one. Yes some Protestant groups have tried as well, i.e. Calvin, the Quakers and the Anabaptists; but that was on a small scale also.


But Christians don't want a theocracy though. What Christians would like to see is balance restored, nothing more. Right now there is no balance.


Whether we like it or not every single nation has a state religion, even the United States. It is necessary for a country to exist. Without religion the state is a corpse.


Right now the state religion of most Western nations is relativism and hedonism which is built upon faith that the state is now the supreme power, and should be treated as such. But here is the problem though. Relativism doesn't have a true moral compass. There is no objective ethics now within the state. The ethics of a state is now...what? Pretty much whatever goes as long as it can get past the courts.


In history the best countries have always been built upon objective ethics, and not subjective ones. A country built upon subjective ethics is like that house built upon shifting sand. Somewhere along the line that house is going to fall, and that is the path we are seeing Western civilization going. It is falling.


Whether people like it or not up until recently Western civilization was built upon Christian principles. Our judicial system, our system of rights, etc. are all Biblical. And this is why we can see Western civilization steadily growing over the last 1500 years. But no longer can we claim that Western civilization's state religion is Christianity, and sadly what it has been replaced with is nothing more than shifting sand.

ebia said:

And if everyone agreed to fight for any other thing the coalition would have been bigger.

Your point?

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My point is the caving in. That is my point. Christianity right now is a legal religion, but for some reason we are all pretending that we aren't.

kiwimac said:

A Government must be religiously neutral. It should make laws that enable ALL of it's people to live lives of empowerment not favouring some religious or political groups.

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The American government was revolutionary in setting up a system of government without an official church. The institution of government is religiously neutral, but this only works when the people themselves are not. We the people, are the government, and we, the people are to remain true to ourselves, and bring our values into our decision.
This is the only way that the system of neutrality will work. Assuredly, if the religious defer their values to the values of the irreligious, atheist values will come to the fore.

That is never what the system was designed to become.

SolomonVII said:

The American government was revolutionary in setting up a system of government without an official church. The institution of government is religiously neutral, but this only works when the people themselves are not. We the people, are the government, and we, the people are to remain true to ourselves, and bring our values into our decision.
This is the only way that the system of neutrality will work. Assuredly, if the religious defer their values to the values of the irreligious, atheist values will come to the fore.

That is never what the system was designed to become.

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Yeah I think we are starting to see the Achilles heal of our system aren't we? That when a large enough portion of the citizenship ceases to have their moral compass guided by religious values; that the system really begins to fall apart.

Erose said:

Yeah I think we are starting to see the Achilles heal of our system aren't we? That when a large enough portion of the citizenship ceases to have their moral compass guided by religious values; that the system really begins to fall apart.

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BINGO!!
It is absolutely essential that in a system where the citizens are given the power to govern themselves, that they have that strong moral compass and clear understanding of right and wrong in order to do so.
The truth be told, any system that does not have strong moral leadership will fall apart, but for a Western style government, the leadership comes from the people themselves.

Erose said:

My point is the caving in. That is my point. Christianity right now is a legal religion, but for some reason we are all pretending that we aren't.

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No one's pretending Christianity isn't a legal religion. When Christians start being forced by the government into same sex marriages, or even to perform same sex marriages, you have a point. Until that time, however, all this wailing and gnashing of teeth is about loosing the ability to enforce Christianity onto others legally. There's a difference.

Erose said:

Yeah I think we are starting to see the Achilles heal of our system aren't we? That when a large enough portion of the citizenship ceases to have their moral compass guided by religious values; that the system really begins to fall apart.

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How is the system "falling apart"?

Specifics, please?

Armoured said:

No one's pretending Christianity isn't a legal religion. When Christians start being forced by the government into same sex marriages, or even to perform same sex marriages, you have a point. Until that time, however, all this wailing and gnashing of teeth is about loosing the ability to enforce Christianity onto others legally. There's a difference.

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And what will be your stance if the Church is forced to perform SSM's?