The Lord's angelic Cherubs do not need to be redeemed, only humans do
So I will suggest to you that the Cherubs do not sing the song .... however, they do worship the Lord
It is the redeemed humans who sing
And this a bit mysterious to us, but know that the Lord is omnipresent in His universe and is every where at the same time and all of the time .... and He can be both God and human at the same time
He is God and can be His Son at the same time [John 14:8-9]
An awesome being, and there is none like Him
Even His 7 fold holy spirit is connected and omnipresent [Revelation 5:6]
Nothing is impossible for this Creator and maintainer of all things
Based on what are you presuming a pre-tribulation rapture ?Is it because that you believe that the 24 elders represent the church that is in heaven ?Where do you think that the souls of the millions of believers in Jesus have gone after their death since 2,000 years ? There is actually a great multitude of souls of those who died in Christ (believers )who are actually in Heaven and their numbers is growing every day.
Revelation 7:9-11
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
The dead and alive, believers in Christ, will be raptured and they will receive glorified bodies and they will be given rewards and crowns. This group of people will encompass all the believers since Christ's resurrection. Therefore the 24 elders represent people, not angels . no where in the scripture does the word elder represent angels. I looked at the Greek word 'presbuterion' and it means men. They are kings and priests. They are also ' purchased' from God and are redeemed as shown in rev 5:9-10.
The number 24 in revelation is a representative of earthly conditions. Example,There were 24 orders of the priesthood in the laws of moses.
You mentioned ' the great multitude'. These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation and therefore are the tribulation saints. This can not be the same group as the elders. Look at 7:13-17, one of the elders asked ' Who are these people?' Answer: they are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation.
According to Strong's word 4245 presbuteros, the word used for elder in Revelation, the definition can be older, a senior, MEMBER OF THE CELESTIAL COUNCIL, presbyter, elder , old.
I see no scriptural way to get a raptured church into heaven in Rev chapter 4. Please show us a scripture that show that.
We will be raptured in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air yes,but at the last trump... the trump of God as mentioned in (Thess... Corinthians ).... No trump have sounded in Revelation 4 or Rev 5 or Rev 6 or even Rev 7.The dead and alive, believers in Christ, will be raptured and they will receive glorified bodies and they will be given rewards and crowns. This group of people will encompass all the believers since Christ's resurrection.
Bibletruth469 said:Therefore the 24 elders represent people, not angels . no where in the scripture does the word elder represent angels. I looked at the Greek word 'presbuterion' and it means men. They are kings and priests. They are also ' purchased' from God and are redeemed as shown in rev 5:9-10.
The number 24 in revelation is a representative of earthly conditions. Example,There were 24 orders of the priesthood in the laws of moses.
The prophecy of Revelation does not address the Rapture. John going to Heaven is just that, and it is not permanent. John returned from Heaven to write this book and continue to live on earth.If John is a picture of the church being raptured in Revelation 4; then who is the multitude in chapter 19 coming back with Christ?
The prophecy of Revelation does not address the Rapture. John going to Heaven is just that, and it is not permanent. John returned from Heaven to write this book and continue to live on earth.
What you see in chapter 19 is "the Revelation" of Christ coming with His saints to judge the world in righteousness. Note what Jude says: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
We will be raptured in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air yes,but at the last trump... the trump of God as mentioned in (Thess... Corinthians ).... No trump have sounded in Revelation 4 or Rev 5 or Rev 6 or even Rev 7.
I am in agreement with you that the 24 elders represent people at least their spirit (souls) in Heaven. "Possibly" the old testament patriarchs and the 12 apostles ...
Hebrews 12:23 give a hint:
Hebrews 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12 KJV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+12&version=KJV
This is very true, yet Christians stumble over this point all the time. Those seven trumpets are meant to pour out God WRATH on the ungodly. "The last trump" or "the trump of God" is a trumpet sound of GRACE, since the Rapture/Resurrection is the ultimate stage in the perfection (salvation) of the saints. And since the Church is not "appointed to wrath", believers are taken out of this world before God pours out His wrath.The seventh trumpet, or the last one in revelation , is about the judgement of unbelievers. It is not the same as the last trumpet in 1 cor 15:51-52. This one occurs for believers at the rapture
Note: just because a trumpet is not mentioned in a verse or passage of scripture doesn't prove anything.
I agree that the 7 Th trump - the last one in Revelation - is probably not the last trump (the trump of God) mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52...The seventh trumpet, or the last one in revelation , is about the judgement of unbelievers. It is not the same as the last trumpet in 1 cor 15:51-52.
Straightshot said:The evidence of the immortals of the the Lord's ecclesia with Him during the tribulation period [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those on "thrones" symbol of the Lord's government]]
Let me rephrase ."None of them have gone to Heaven because they were raptured while they were still alive."
Your statement here makes no sense at all
Rev 19 follows a celebration by the saints who were raised in Matthew 27:52-53 who witnessed the destruction of Babylon the great in 70AD from heaven.
Then in Rev 20 we see when the first beast and the false religious system the harlot that influenced the first beast were destroyed Satan who symbolised the red dragon that persecuted the first century church that was trying to deliver the child into the world (everlasting gospel) was imprisoned in his bottomless Pitt prison.