John Nelson Darby and the Novelty Factor

[Douggg]

Do you believe that the human Jesus can be divided from or regarded as separate to the divine Christ, the only-begotten Son and Logos?

The reason I am asking is I am seeking to understand your position.

Before becoming a man, subject to the trials and pains of being human, the unique only-begotten Son of God into this world.... before then, in the Tanach, the old testament, Jesus is the LORD God, coming forth from God (who is beyond comprehension) in form that them in heaven can perceive Him. Moses was permitted to see His back as He passed by when Moses was in the cleft of the rock.

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In Ezekiel 39:22 at Jesus's Second Coming (verses 21-29 ) following Armageddon (verses 17-20), the Jews who do not presently believe that Jesus is God will that time....

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

 

[The Liturgist]

Before becoming a man, subject to the trials and pains of being human, the unique only-begotten Son of God into this world.... before then, in the Tanach, the old testament, Jesus is the LORD God, coming forth from God (who is beyond comprehension) in form that them in heaven can perceive Him. Moses was permitted to see His back as He passed by when Moses was in the cleft of the rock.

---------------------------------------------------------

In Ezekiel 39:22 at Jesus's Second Coming (verses 21-29 ) following Armageddon (verses 17-20), the Jews who do not presently believe that Jesus is God will that time....

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Forgive me but I must ask you to clarify how this answer relates to my question.

 

[Douggg]

Forgive me but I must ask you to clarify how this answer relates to my question.

Since your question involved "divided", I assumed you meant who Jesus - before entering this world by being born a human - who he was.

Revelation 1:
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Mary by giving birth to Jesus did not make Jesus God. Do you agree with that ?

 

[Timtofly]

No one is saying our Lord was born a sinner. This is not true. But he did condescend to put on our mortal human nature and did die, and thus trampled down death by death; he rose from the dead in a state of perpetual imperishability, and thus made it possible for us to be resurrected in the same manner.

The problem is that you seem to regard your entirely novel theology, which is extremely problematic for a large number of reason, as the only solution to the Nicene Creed, and you also seem to regard the Nicene Creed itself as unimportant based on your prior posts.



That statement is both offensive and concerning. Do you really believe that, that you yourself are more Christian than everyone else?

The point about being Christian comes from you and the necessity of a Creed to define who you are.

I place the Bible above a human document. Some here seem to lean on the Creed more than God's own Word.

Jesus had a physical body. Jesus gave up His own life, and did not succumb to natural death. Jesus did not have a sin nature nor the genetic makeup from Mary. Jesus was without blemish. On the Cross Jesus was made sin, just as typified by every Lamb offering of the OT Law.

You all seem to argue that Jesus came from Mary and was of a dead sinful nature, as you keep pointing out I am wrong.

Is the Bible a novel theology?

 

[Timtofly]

The statement you refer to does not mean that our Lord literally became sinful or an agent of sin and evil, for this would be impossible for God, since sin is not created or creatable, since it can be defined as any opposition to or misalignment with the will of God.

Since sin is not a thing, but a concept, sure.

Pretty sure the Creeds turn sin into a thing, contrary to Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

After the resurrection, scripture makes it clear that our Lord had altered his human nature and was now capable of passing through closed doors, and so on, something which was not the case previously. Indeed our Lord was not even initially recognized by his disciples.

Nope. Jesus did supernatural actions prior to the Cross.

 

[The Liturgist]

@Timtofly - if you have such a low opinion of the creeds perhaps you should consider, out of respect, not posting in a part of the forum reserved for adherents of the Nicene creed.

 

[Douggg]

@Timtofly - if you have such a low opinion of the creeds perhaps you should consider, out of respect, not posting in a part of the forum reserved for adherents of the Nicene creed.

Hi The Liturgist, which part of the forum are you referring to ? The Catholic forum.

I believe this part of the Nicene creed. But the last segment (not shown), I think is something more embraceable by Catholics. Just speaking for myself, not what others believe.

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.

 

[Douggg]

@The Liturgist

Mary by giving birth to Jesus did not make Jesus God. Do you agree with that ?

 

[The Liturgist]

Hi The Liturgist, which part of the forum are you referring to ? The Catholic forum.

I believe this part of the Nicene creed. But the last segment (not shown), I think is something more embraceable by Catholics. Just speaking for myself, not what others believe.

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.

All Christian-only areas require acceptance of the entire CF.com Statement of Faith which you can find here: CF Statement of Faith

A footnote is provided which should address any misgivings you might have concerning the creed, at least to such an extent as you can accept the SoF and remain active in the Christian-only areas:

* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

But please read the entire Statement of Faith as there is more to it than just the Creed.

 

[The Liturgist]

@The Liturgist

Mary by giving birth to Jesus did not make Jesus God. Do you agree with that ?

There was never a time when He was not, for the divine Logos, or Word of God, was begotten of the Father before all ages. Rather, Mary by giving birth to the Word of God (and also by carrying Him in her womb from His conception by the Holt Spirit) made Him human, thus becoming that which was typologically foretold by the Ark of the Covenant, the Theotokos, or birth giver to God.

 

[Douggg]

All Christian-only areas require acceptance of the entire CF.com Statement of Faith which you can find here: CF Statement of Faith

A footnote is provided which should address any misgivings you might have concerning the creed, at least to such an extent as you can accept the SoF and remain active in the Christian-only areas:

* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

But please read the entire Statement of Faith as there is more to it than just the Creed.

I think the Nicene creed should be more appropriately worded "universal church" instead of catholic church in its text. The would eliminate the Catholic church overtones.

 

[Douggg]

There was never a time when He was not, for the divine Logos, or Word of God, was begotten of the Father before all ages. Rather, Mary by giving birth to the Word of God (and also by carrying Him in her womb from His conception by the Holt Spirit) made Him human, thus becoming that which was typologically foretold by the Ark of the Covenant, the Theotokos, or birth giver to God.

Well, personally I never say Mary the mother of God, because it is not true. Mary the mother of Jesus is okay.

 

[The Liturgist]

Well, personally I never say Mary the mother of God, because it is not true. Mary the mother of Jesus is okay.

No its not; it expressly denies the unity of the human and divine natures of our Lord and is inaccurate. If Jesus Christ is God, then Mary is his mother.

By the way, my position on this is not some niche Orthodox view, for it was shared by Martin Luther, Thomas Cranmer, John Wesley, and even John Calvin, who really would have preferred not to call our Lady the Theotokos but ultimately decided it was not possible.

Only Nestorius and his followers rejected “Theotokos” and in order to do this they had to explain why it was that Mary gave birth to Christ but not God, and the result wound up being a Christological disaster.

My Lutheran friend @Via Crucis has eloquently addressed this issue on several occasions; you might ask him for clarification or look up some of his posts.

 

[The Liturgist]

I think the Nicene creed should be more appropriately worded "universal church" instead of catholic church in its text. The would eliminate the Catholic church overtones.

Thats literally what the word “Catholic” means in the original Greek, “according to the whole.” The field of ecclesiology deals with among other things the correct identification of catholicity.

Since modifying the creed in such a way as to create an inconsistency with the vast majority of Protestant ecclesiological writings going back to the 16th century, not to mention the vast array or Patristic writings, would be ill-advised, every major Protestant church uses the creed with the word “catholic”, and the same is true with the Apostles’ and Athanasian Creeds.

 

[Douggg]

Since modifying the creed in such a way as to create an inconsistency with the vast majority of Protestant ecclesiological writings going back to the 16th century, not to mention the vast array or Patristic writings, would be ill-advised, every major Protestant church uses the creed with the word “catholic”, and the same is true with the Apostles’ and Athanasian Creeds.

I am sure Catholics would not like it. Non-Catholics though, they would be on board with changing to the wording to "universal church". We, of course, are just stating our opinions.

 

[The Liturgist]

I am sure Catholics would not like it. Non-Catholics though, they would be on board with changing to the wording to "universal church". We, of course, are just stating our opinions.

No they wouldn’t. I’m not a Roman Catholic and I would oppose it, and so would most Protestants and Orthodox I know. Most Christians know the definition of Catholic and are not scandalized by the Nicene Creed.

Also technically Universal is not the correct translation. Catholic means “According to the whole” and is one of those wonderful Greek words with multiple meanings, in that it meqns the entire church, teaching the entire faith. There is no English word that could replace it, or even a Latin word (which is is why the Romans retained it). I would suggest changing the CF.com Statement of Faith except some people with poor English language skills might be confused.

Interestingly however the Greek word Orthodox, meaning “Correct Glorification”, and the Church Slavonic and Slavic word Pravoslav, are largely synonymous (if I recall Pravoslav means “True Glory”).

 

[Douggg]

No they wouldn’t. I’m not a Roman Catholic and I would oppose it, and so would most Protestants and Orthodox I know. Most Christians know the definition of Catholic and are not scandalized by the Nicene Creed.

Also technically Universal is not the correct translation. Catholic means “According to the whole” and is one of those wonderful Greek words with multiple meanings, in that it meqns the entire church, teaching the entire faith. There is no English word that could replace it, or even a Latin word (which is is why the Romans retained it). I would suggest changing the CF.com Statement of Faith except some people with poor English language skills might be confused.

Interestingly however the Greek word Orthodox, meaning “Correct Glorification”, and the Church Slavonic and Slavic word Pravoslav, are largely synonymous (if I recall Pravoslav means “True Glory”).

Okay, we have both stated our opinions. Time to move on.

 

[Timtofly]

@Timtofly - if you have such a low opinion of the creeds perhaps you should consider, out of respect, not posting in a part of the forum reserved for adherents of the Nicene creed.

Should we place the Creeds above the Word of God?

I have a high opinion of God's Word.

 

[The Liturgist]

Should we place the Creeds above the Word of God?

I have a high opinion of God's Word.

The Creeds only serve to exclude erroneous interpretations, such as denying the full divinity or humanity of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, or denying the Deity of the Holy Spirit. On an ecumenical site like Christian Forums it is important, because otherwise Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons and other people whose interpretation of the Bible is considered by most Christians to be in error will start endless flamewars. Even now we have controversy between the different denominations, but this controversy is manageable since everyone agrees on the basics.

You can read the CF.com Statement of Faith, which includes the Creed and a few extra provisions here: CF Statement of Faith

If you feel your doctrines contradict the creed, you should let us know, and then cease to post in this forum. It would also be a good idea to ask the mods to change your faith symbol (“Heterodox Christian” is commonly used) so as to prevent you from inadvertently posting in a forum reserved for members who agree with the Statement of Faith.

Additionally, even if you agree with the Statement of Faith, subforums like Traditional Theology and denomination-specific forums have their own Statements Of Purpose which control what kind of content can be posted therein.