My Soteriology.

Jesse Dornfeld

Slave to Christ
Site Supporter
Oct 11, 2020
3,345
1,109
37
Twin Cities
Visit site
✟177,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
I have my suspicions that people here from most different traditions will not approve of the Soteriology that I think I have discovered by reading the Bible myself because it doesn't fit perfectly with any other tradition (though it overlaps with several of them). I will give it here and see what people say.

Did Christ die for everyone, or did he only die for the elect? Indeed, God died for the elect. But it says plainly that Christ died for the whole world as well. So, there is a “Partial-Atonement” for those not chosen before the foundations of the world and a “Full-Atonement” for those chosen before the foundations of the world. I want to be careful here and define these things. By “Partial-Atonement,” I mean it’s possible they can be saved. Still, it is not guaranteed, whereas by “Full-Atonement,” God ensures it will keep this person. I would back up this idea of “Partial-Atonement” with Christ’s words where He says,

Luke 13:34 ESV
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!”

Whereas with Peter, we see Christ saying,

Luke 22:32 ESV
“I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.””

For some of these same people who initially were not willing to see Jesus as the Messiah, later, some of these people see Jesus as the Messiah as seen here:

Acts 6:7 ESV
“And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith.”

So, some religious Jews who received testimony from other Christians who preached to them ended up coming to faith in Jesus. This means that these religious Jews came to faith by messengers of the Gospel. We know this by “priests becoming obedient to the faith.”

In Acts 9, we see the story of Apostle Paul’s conversion. Paul, much in the same way as Job as well as others, was, in some sense, assaulted by the glory of God. Did Paul really have a choice in his response to Christ? Nothing in the text shows that Paul consciously chose to serve Jesus.

My point in this “Full-Atonement” is found here for Paul, where it says,

Galatians 1:15–16 ESV
“But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;”

So the question becomes, “Did God set all the elect apart before they were born?”

We see throughout Ephesians 1:3-12 that Paul speaks of those predestined as “us,” and “we.” So, who might this “us” and “we” be? Paul tells us here,

Ephesians 2:19–21 ESV
“So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.”

What this tells us is that:
  1. The “you” are “fellow citizens with the saint,” which is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets.” The apostles and prophets are the “us” here. And,
  2. The “structure” is “joined together” by every believer, to which Christ is the cornerstone.
But the next verse is very telling, as it says,

Ephesians 2:22 ESV
“In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.”

So clearly, Paul references a kind of dichotomy to those who, as Paul says, are “Predestined” and others, as it says, “In Him, you also are being built together.”

So where does the “Partial-Atonement” come from? Well, that is easy to see with verses like this one seen here:

1 John 2:2 ESV
“He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”

So, notice the word “world” here that Apostle John uses. I am not aware of any single reference that the Apostle John uses the word “world” as meaning all the elect and not talking about the “whole world” or the dominion of Satan as the “world.” Instead, Calvinists insert this meaning into the text. It isn’t found in any of the ways John uses the word world.

He concludes about the world here:

1 John 5:19 ESV
“We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.”

So how can it be that Christ is the “Savior of the world” unless Christ died for the world as to the dominion of Satan? For what else could John mean except that from 1 John 2:2 that Christ is the “propitiation for our sins” if not that Christ has a certain “Full-Atonement” for one group of people and a “Partial-Atonement” for “the sins of the whole world”?
 
Z
Zachm531
Your view can be somewhat reconciled with the view in Catholicism that God gives some people the grace of final perseverance, even though, God gives everyone the grace to repent and trust in Him.

It is very dangerous to try and interpret the entire Bible by yourself, this is how groups such as Jehovah’s witness, mormons, branch dividians etc are created.


Look into the Catholic church.
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,735
7,936
63
Martinez
✟915,993.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So how can it be that Christ is the “Savior of the world” unless Christ died for the world as to the dominion of Satan? For what else could John mean except that from 1 John 2:2 that Christ is the “propitiation for our sins” if not that Christ has a certain “Full-Atonement” for one group of people and a “Partial-Atonement” for “the sins of the whole world”?
I guess I'm disagreeing with you, respectfully. I do commend you though, for attempting to soften Calvinism.
When I read " elect " in any passage, to me it means those who chose to belive in Him are "the elect " . It is not God that choses "who will belive in Him" and therefore considered the elect. It's really that simple.
Blessings.
 
Upvote 0

Jesse Dornfeld

Slave to Christ
Site Supporter
Oct 11, 2020
3,345
1,109
37
Twin Cities
Visit site
✟177,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
I guess I'm disagreeing with you, respectfully. I do commend you though, for attempting to soften Calvinism.
When I read " elect " in any passage, to me it means those who chose to belive in Him are "the elect " . It is not God that choses "who will belive in Him" and therefore considered the elect. It's really that simple.
Blessings.

It may be just because you may have worded this improperly, but how does a person choose themselves to be born again? Where is God's grace in your view, in other words?
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,560
9,051
Florida
✟328,061.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I have my suspicions that people here from most different traditions will not approve of the Soteriology that I think I have discovered by reading the Bible myself because it doesn't fit perfectly with any other tradition (though it overlaps with several of them). I will give it here and see what people say.

Did Christ die for everyone, or did he only die for the elect? Indeed, God died for the elect. But it says plainly that Christ died for the whole world as well. So, there is a “Partial-Atonement” for those not chosen before the foundations of the world and a “Full-Atonement” for those chosen before the foundations of the world. I want to be careful here and define these things. By “Partial-Atonement,” I mean it’s possible they can be saved. Still, it is not guaranteed, whereas by “Full-Atonement,” God ensures it will keep this person. I would back up this idea of “Partial-Atonement” with Christ’s words where He says,

Luke 13:34 ESV
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!”

Whereas with Peter, we see Christ saying,

Luke 22:32 ESV
“I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.””

For some of these same people who initially were not willing to see Jesus as the Messiah, later, some of these people see Jesus as the Messiah as seen here:

Acts 6:7 ESV
“And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith.”

So, some religious Jews who received testimony from other Christians who preached to them ended up coming to faith in Jesus. This means that these religious Jews came to faith by messengers of the Gospel. We know this by “priests becoming obedient to the faith.”

In Acts 9, we see the story of Apostle Paul’s conversion. Paul, much in the same way as Job as well as others, was, in some sense, assaulted by the glory of God. Did Paul really have a choice in his response to Christ? Nothing in the text shows that Paul consciously chose to serve Jesus.

My point in this “Full-Atonement” is found here for Paul, where it says,

Galatians 1:15–16 ESV
“But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;”

So the question becomes, “Did God set all the elect apart before they were born?”

We see throughout Ephesians 1:3-12 that Paul speaks of those predestined as “us,” and “we.” So, who might this “us” and “we” be? Paul tells us here,

Ephesians 2:19–21 ESV
“So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.”

What this tells us is that:
  1. The “you” are “fellow citizens with the saint,” which is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets.” The apostles and prophets are the “us” here. And,
  2. The “structure” is “joined together” by every believer, to which Christ is the cornerstone.
But the next verse is very telling, as it says,

Ephesians 2:22 ESV
“In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.”

So clearly, Paul references a kind of dichotomy to those who, as Paul says, are “Predestined” and others, as it says, “In Him, you also are being built together.”

So where does the “Partial-Atonement” come from? Well, that is easy to see with verses like this one seen here:

1 John 2:2 ESV
“He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”

So, notice the word “world” here that Apostle John uses. I am not aware of any single reference that the Apostle John uses the word “world” as meaning all the elect and not talking about the “whole world” or the dominion of Satan as the “world.” Instead, Calvinists insert this meaning into the text. It isn’t found in any of the ways John uses the word world.

He concludes about the world here:

1 John 5:19 ESV
“We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.”

So how can it be that Christ is the “Savior of the world” unless Christ died for the world as to the dominion of Satan? For what else could John mean except that from 1 John 2:2 that Christ is the “propitiation for our sins” if not that Christ has a certain “Full-Atonement” for one group of people and a “Partial-Atonement” for “the sins of the whole world”?

We have to be careful when talking about any form of predestination. The only form of predestination that can be reasonably proven is that God has predestined for himself a holy people. That's as far as it goes. God chose the Jews as his holy people but when they rebelled in the desert God swore to destroy them and make a holy people from the descendants of Moses.

The Essenes were a primary sect of Jews in the first century, much the same as the Pharisees and Sadducees were. Jesus and John the Baptist were Essenes. The Essenes had a saying that went, "all things are best ascribed to God". The meaning is that no matter what happens, good or bad, it is best ascribed to God. It's the reason for the discrepancy between the census of David in 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21. 2 Samuel has God causing David to conduct a census, while 1 Chronicles has it that Satan caused David to to conduct the census. One writer has Satan causing it while the other writer has God causing it, because "all things are best ascribed to God". We do not know for certain who caused the census to be taken.

Along those same lines, when Paul declared that God had set him apart from his mother's womb we do not know if it is literal, or if it is Paul ascribing it to God.
 
Upvote 0

Jesse Dornfeld

Slave to Christ
Site Supporter
Oct 11, 2020
3,345
1,109
37
Twin Cities
Visit site
✟177,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Along those same lines, when Paul declared that God had set him apart from his mother's womb we do not know if it is literal, or if it is Paul ascribing it to God.

What is this based on? Seems like pretty straightforward language to me. There's also Romans 8:30, Ephesians 1:5, Acts 4:27, 28, as well as many other passages that talk about God foreordaining things. Prophesy is not possible if God does not predestine things also.
 
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,735
7,936
63
Martinez
✟915,993.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It may be just because you may have worded this improperly, but how does a person choose themselves to be born again? Where is God's grace in your view, in other words?
Ya, I thought it sounded a bit convoluted. Basically, people who choose to belive are the Elect in other words, God chooses those who choose Him first. Then the regeneration through His Holy Spirit takes place.
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,560
9,051
Florida
✟328,061.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
What is this based on? Seems like pretty straightforward language to me. There's also Romans 8:30, Ephesians 1:5, Acts 4:27, 28, as well as many other passages that talk about God foreordaining things. Prophesy is not possible if God does not predestine things also.

It doesn't mean that God doesn't foreordain things. It simply means that we cannot know precisely what is and isn't foreordained.
 
Upvote 0

Jesse Dornfeld

Slave to Christ
Site Supporter
Oct 11, 2020
3,345
1,109
37
Twin Cities
Visit site
✟177,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
It doesn't mean that God doesn't foreordain things. It simply means that we cannot know precisely what is and isn't foreordained.

How would you interpret this verse?

Isaiah 46:10 CSB17
“I declare the end from the beginning,
and from long ago what is not yet done,
saying: my plan will take place,
and I will do all my will.”
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,560
9,051
Florida
✟328,061.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
How would you interpret this verse?

Isaiah 46:10 CSB17
“I declare the end from the beginning,
and from long ago what is not yet done,
saying: my plan will take place,
and I will do all my will.”

I interpret it to mean that God will have his way. He has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled.
 
  • Like
Reactions: zoidar
Upvote 0

Jesse Dornfeld

Slave to Christ
Site Supporter
Oct 11, 2020
3,345
1,109
37
Twin Cities
Visit site
✟177,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
I interpret it to mean that God will have his way. He has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled.

Does God have a "plan B"? I'm wondering why you think anything that happens is outside of God's control/anything happens that God doesn't want to happen.
 
Upvote 0

Jesse Dornfeld

Slave to Christ
Site Supporter
Oct 11, 2020
3,345
1,109
37
Twin Cities
Visit site
✟177,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Ya, I thought it sounded a bit convoluted. Basically, people who choose to belive are the Elect in other words, God chooses those who choose Him first. Then the regeneration through His Holy Spirit takes place.

That's either Semi-Pelagiansism or full-on Pelagianism, which was considered heretical in the early church.
 
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,735
7,936
63
Martinez
✟915,993.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That's either Semi-Pelagiansism or full-on Pelagianism, which was considered heretical in the early church.
Ya, that's what Augustine said but it's not true. This is the Calvinist talking point. If your not one of them then your a Pelagian. But that's ok. Thanks for engaging!
 
Upvote 0

Jesse Dornfeld

Slave to Christ
Site Supporter
Oct 11, 2020
3,345
1,109
37
Twin Cities
Visit site
✟177,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Ya, that's what Augustine said but it's not true. This is the Calvinist talking point. If your not one of them then your a Pelagian. But that's ok. Thanks for engaging!

I asked you where grace fits in and you said it doesn't until the person makes the first step toward God. That's Pelagianism.
 
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,735
7,936
63
Martinez
✟915,993.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I asked you where grace fits in and you said it doesn't until the person makes the first step toward God. That's Pelagianism.
We accept (believe) the grace of God and enter into the salvation of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
 
Upvote 0

Jesse Dornfeld

Slave to Christ
Site Supporter
Oct 11, 2020
3,345
1,109
37
Twin Cities
Visit site
✟177,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,735
7,936
63
Martinez
✟915,993.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Tell me, is the new birth Spiritual or natural?
New birth or aka regeneration is Spiritual. This is when Jesus Christ of Nazareth makes His Home in us through His Holy Spirit. The flesh is natural and comes to an end. The Spirit is everlasting.
 
Upvote 0

YahuahSaves

Well-Known Member
Nov 19, 2022
1,760
714
Melbourne
✟30,343.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So how can it be that Christ is the “Savior of the world” unless Christ died for the world as to the dominion of Satan? For what else could John mean except that from 1 John 2:2 that Christ is the “propitiation for our sins” if not that Christ has a certain “Full-Atonement” for one group of people and a “Partial-Atonement” for “the sins of the whole world”?
Can't say I agree with your view, but I do believe the "whole world" refers to the sin of the world, and when people make a choice to turn to God, repent and believe in Jesus and the work of the cross, they're free from slavery to sin and death. "Saved by grace through faith". (Faith being the determining factor).
 
Upvote 0