What is the attitude towards transgender people in the Christian Church?

[Dave RP]

You have never experience awe? That's a pity. That's funny, what you said about reverend awe.

Actually I have been awestruck many times, the probe that NASA sent to Pluto for example, sending a rocket to a tiny piece of rock 5 billion miles away and getting there with a margin of error of nearly nothing was truly awe inspiring. I am awe struck by the stars in the sky, the unimaginable complexity of nature and many other things, I just don't see it as being "made" by an unseen god. I'm afraid I've never felt the same (or indeed any) level of awe for a creator god, but I do understand that is what believers feel.

 

[Dave RP]

It is reverent awe. Yes you have it all wrong.

Actually, here is a quote from someone else on this board (different message thread).

"I've been doing a lot of reflecting on my recent attitude and feelings toward my Christian walk and something very worrying occurred to me. I've found that my main motivation for doing anything that I do (praying, going to church, staying clear of temptation) is fueled by my fear of eternal damnation."

Did you see the post?

She/ he needs a visit from Reverend Awe!

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Yes, I saw that. Did you see my response to that post? The poster is very young

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Actually I have been awestruck many times, the probe that NASA sent to Pluto for example, sending a rocket to a tiny piece of rock 5 billion miles away and getting there with a margin of error of nearly nothing was truly awe inspiring. I am awe struck by the stars in the sky, the unimaginable complexity of nature and many other things, I just don't see it as being "made" by an unseen god. I'm afraid I've never felt the same (or indeed any) level of awe for a creator god, but I do understand that is what believers feel.

And our Father loves you in spite of your unbelief. Now that is awesome love.
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Because we believers know our Father created all things visible and invisible, the reverent awe we experience is so rich and so deep that tears flow at the contemplation of the works of His hand. And we tearfully proclaim " How Great Thou Art!";because we know that in Him we live and move, and have our being. Therefore we bow in gratitude for His awesome love towards us.

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

All means all, including all mankind. He is the potter, mankind is the clay.

 

[Strathos]

Just to add my view, I believe that if a person is born with a medical condition that negatively affects their life, they should have the right to seek treatment for it. Whether that treatment is a hormone replacement therapy and gender reassignment surgery or something like prosthetic limbs or a hearing aid doesn't matter, as long as it helps them.

 

[Dave RP]

Yes, I saw that. Did you see my response to that post? The poster is very young

He's a bit confused and I did see the various messages which you and others had left.

It's a strange one the fear thing, my christian "girlfriend" (we are divorced in our 50's but I can't think of a better term for what she is - "lady friend?") is very worried about her 90 year old mother who although being a regular church goer is not convinced by some of the Christian doctrine. She doesn't believe eternal life is possible for example so my friend is very scared her mother won't go to heaven. Her mother actually doesn't seem too bothered! I say that I cannot believe that in the event this almighty, all powerful god exists, he will eternally punish someone for having doubts, although I know that's not what the bible says.

 

[Dave RP]

And our Father loves you in spite of your unbelief. Now that is awesome love.
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Because we believers know our Father created all things visible and invisible, the reverent awe we experience is so rich and so deep that tears flow at the contemplation of the works of His hand. And we tearfully proclaim " How Great Thou Art!";because we know that in Him we live and move, and have our being. Therefore we bow in gratitude for His awesome love towards us.

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

All means all, including all mankind. He is the potter, mankind is the clay.

I always say that in the event of me being wrong and God existing, notwithstanding the texts of all the religions (which were all written by human beings) and in the event he is going to offer some form of eternal life he will offer it to everyone, not just the percentage of humanity who happened to believe one particular religious story. Quite what this supreme being will do with rapists, murderers etc. I can't imagine, maybe they get some appropriate punishment, but eternal damnation for not believing, or believing the "wrong" religion seems to me to be ludicrous.

You've quoted Paul, he seems to me to be writing his thoughts but how can they be gods word? As I understand it he never met Jesus, he only saw a vision, a hallucination maybe?

 

[Dave RP]

Just to add my view, I believe that if a person is born with a medical condition that negatively affects their life, they should have the right to seek treatment for it. Whether that treatment is a hormone replacement therapy and gender reassignment surgery or something like prosthetic limbs or a hearing aid doesn't matter, as long as it helps them.

Funnily enough this was more or less the point I made to someone the other day. if someone is born with a defective heart, it is ok amongst Christians to surgically repair it but if the defect is a number of inches lower and to a different part of the body it is not, this seems inconsistent.

 

[_-iconoclast-_]

Funnily enough this was more or less the point I made to someone the other day. if someone is born with a defective heart, it is ok amongst Christians to surgically repair it but if the defect is a number of inches lower and to a different part of the body it is not, this seems inconsistent.

Hey hey dave

The defective heart is imperfect or unhealthy or faulty. If a christian decides he would like surgery. That is his choice.

Is the lower area faulty and in need of surgery?

Cheers

 

[Dave RP]

Hey hey dave

The defective heart is imperfect or unhealthy or faulty. If a christian decides he would like surgery. That is his choice.

Is the lower area faulty and in need of surgery?

Cheers

I don't know, I wasn't writing a medical treatise, I was trying to make a more general point - probably very badly!

 

[_-iconoclast-_]

I don't know, I wasn't writing a medical treatise, I was trying to make a more general point - probably very badly!

Hey there. Thank you for your reply.

Fair enough. The heart surgery seems like a need. The other surgery may be a want.

Cheers

 

[Dave RP]

Hey there. Thank you for your reply.

Fair enough. The heart surgery seems like a need. The other surgery may be a want.

Cheers

True, how about plastic surgery for a horrible facial deformity which allows you to live but is unpleasant, not "necessary" but certainly wanted?

 

[_-iconoclast-_]

True, how about plastic surgery for a horrible facial deformity which allows you to live but is unpleasant, not "necessary" but certainly wanted?

Hey hey dave.

Are we to comparing a functioning body part with a horrible facial deformity?

 

[Dave RP]

Hey hey dave.

Are we to comparing a functioning body part with a horrible facial deformity?

Errrmmmmm - well without getting too far into semantics, I suppose I was trying to say that modern medicine deals with so many things which are not really necessary for life, and which in times gone by people would have to live with. It's pointless doing a list. To me, gender reassignment is one of those and I see no reason why some Christians (the Pastor at the Church I went to for example) would be so vehemently opposed to medical intervention in those cases, I am surprised this is considered to be controversial in Christian circles when we are happy to change how god made in in any other circumstances.

That's why I posted the original question.

I hope I am making myself a little clearer, albeit gradually.

 

[_-iconoclast-_]

medical intervention in those cases

In medicine , an intervention is usually undertaken to help treat or cure a condition. To give medical care or attention to; try to heal or cure. So far being pre transgender has been compared with a defective heart and a horrible facial deformity

Is the pre-transgender condition considered an illness?

Why does it need treating?

 

[Dave RP]

In medicine , an intervention is usually undertaken to help treat or cure a condition. To give medical care or attention to; try to heal or cure. So far being pre transgender has been compared with a defective heart and a horrible facial deformity

Is the pre-transgender condition considered an illness?

Why does it need treating?

Hello old chap.

I am not a clinician however the NHS in the UK considers this to be a medical matter requiring treatment, hence they offer the procedure as part of the range of medical treatments available to the UK public via our Health Service. As they are the experts I would have to say that this is a condition requiring treatment in the same way as many others. I still don't understand why this is a matter which some religious adherents (although by no means all) find controversial.

 

[Dave RP]

In medicine , an intervention is usually undertaken to help treat or cure a condition. To give medical care or attention to; try to heal or cure. So far being pre transgender has been compared with a defective heart and a horrible facial deformity

Is the pre-transgender condition considered an illness?

Why does it need treating?

In addition and in specific response to your question "Why does it need treating?" - I guess because the person with the gender issues is suffering genuine mental or physical problems which need to be addressed.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

He's a bit confused and I did see the various messages which you and others had left.

It's a strange one the fear thing, my christian "girlfriend" (we are divorced in our 50's but I can't think of a better term for what she is - "lady friend?") is very worried about her 90 year old mother who although being a regular church goer is not convinced by some of the Christian doctrine. She doesn't believe eternal life is possible for example so my friend is very scared her mother won't go to heaven. Her mother actually doesn't seem too bothered! I say that I cannot believe that in the event this almighty, all powerful god exists, he will eternally punish someone for having doubts, although I know that's not what the bible says.

Your friend's mother is resting in confidence that our Father is faithful to His promises. She knows she is not saved by doctrine of men, but by the finished work of Lord Jesus on the cross. She knows that she belongs to Him, and her fate is His responsibility, not hers.

We put our trust in the finished work of Lord Jesus on the cross. If we are born again, it is no longer about us, for we surrendered to His Lordship. He is our life.We put our trust in Him. When we think it is about us, we lean to our own understanding which leads to doubt.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I always say that in the event of me being wrong and God existing, notwithstanding the texts of all the religions (which were all written by human beings) and in the event he is going to offer some form of eternal life he will offer it to everyone, not just the percentage of humanity who happened to believe one particular religious story. Quite what this supreme being will do with rapists, murderers etc. I can't imagine, maybe they get some appropriate punishment, but eternal damnation for not believing, or believing the "wrong" religion seems to me to be ludicrous.

Our Father has offered the gift of eternal life as a gift to all of humanity!!! He has provided it! People just do not want the gift, they despise the gift! They see the gift as worthless, and they reject the gift.
Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Now, if you gave the most precious thing you had as a gift to someone (from a purely human perspective), and they rejected your gift, despised it and you for giving it, and they tossed it into the trash like it was worthless. How would you feel? Not only that, your gift was worth more than all of the gold,silver, and precious stones that could be found anywhere.

You've quoted Paul, he seems to me to be writing his thoughts but how can they be gods word? As I understand it he never met Jesus, he only saw a vision, a hallucination maybe?

Paul had a supernatural encounter with Lord Jesus on the Damascus road, and there were witnesses. It was so profound that he was blinded for three days. So it was much more than a hallucination. His words are considered scripture so either you believe that or you don't. Our Father has placed the power of choice into our hands.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I ask this because I went with a friend to a church recently and the sermon was on "Is gender fluid".

The Vicar was arguing from a Christian perspective that there are only 2 genders made by god and that people who feel they are the other gender or who have a genetic problem requiring gender re-alignment should accept themselves as god made them and not receive any treatment.

he al;so was appalled that the Church of England is considering bringing in prayers to welcome newly gender reassigned individuals to the church.

His stance felt to me to be very un-Christian, I wondered what others felt.

If any person sins that would be a problem bible wise. How god creates a person and how one identifies is no more of a problem than people falling Deaf people as having a disability and god was supppsed to make them hearing. So, the issue should have been how is one a child of god not descriminating Who is.

Maybe it should have been how one identifies first is a child of christ and how else we identify Deaf (not deaf), Black (not African American), Gay (not homosexual), Catholic (not christian), Carol (not human) is secondary to ones identity in christ regardless of the traits god created man and woman.

I went to a beautiful Mass were the priest did not speak of gay marriage like the baptist church who spoke against catholics when thry found out I was; it was his whole sermon. Instead, the priest spoke about the value of marriage between man and woman.

The way one expresses christian beliefs shouldnt use discriminative words and points but focus on teachings of the bible as a whole.

Very unchristian. I would have walked out if I heard that.