Tithe is too heavy for some people.

[pdudgeon]

Well, I don't know that trust is always the issue. It can be, of course, but I'd hate to be too quick to throw that around when there are often other issues in play as well.

i was speaking about trust in God to supply all their needs.
I know without a doubt that i can trust in the church to estimate the amount of those needs, and in the accounting department to see that everything goes where it should.

 

[WolfGate]

i was speaking about trust in God to supply all their needs.
I know without a doubt that i can trust in the church to estimate the amount of those needs, and in the accounting department to see that everything goes where it should.

Can you expound on that a bit please? Are you saying that someone who is earning income but not enough to cover their expenses should go ahead and give money to the church anyway?

 

[Sketcher]

The other main method, of course, is to generate income in other ways. Run an opportunity shop, hire out the hall or other facilities, own other properties which generate rental income, (one church I know makes a lot of money for having a mobile phone tower in its steeple!). And so on.

What is an "opportunity shop"?

 

[Paidiske]

Ohh... I wonder what they call them overseas.

It's a shop that sells mostly or entirely second-hand goods that have been donated. Often they're run by charities, staffed by volunteers, and as well as selling things at a very affordable price, might do things like, for example, outfit a homeless person for a job interview at no cost. And the funds raised go to the church or charity that runs the shop. For some churches, running such a shop is the difference between closing and staying open.

 

[pdudgeon]

Can you expound on that a bit please? Are you saying that someone who is earning income but not enough to cover their expenses should go ahead and give money to the church anyway?

i'm very glad that you asked that question, because I'm in a position to answer it, having been there myself.

When i was first widdowed, my late husband and I had a joint savings account. I knew that i would be receiving the money from his life insurance, but i had no idea when that would be. meanwhile there were the usual expenses to be covered with a sudden unexpected death (hospital ambulance, mortuary, etc.).
long story short, i covered them and my tithe while waiting for some income.

The important part of this story is that God alone sustained me financially for the 4 months it took for the insurance to pay out and for the benefits to start comming in.
So for 4 months I had outflow but no income.

For 4 months all i had was trust in God to sustain me.

So putting that trust to the proof, what i did was to tithe on those expected benefits (because i had no income on which to tithe) while trusting in God to bring it about.
and He did.

I am glad to say that God is the best money manager I have ever encountered.
He taught me the very important difference between a need and a want, and continues those lessons to this very day.

Under His tutoring I am in better financial shape today than i ever was before, and I owe it all to Him.

 

[RDKirk]

Ohh... I wonder what they call them overseas.

It's a shop that sells mostly or entirely second-hand goods that have been donated. Often they're run by charities, staffed by volunteers, and as well as selling things at a very affordable price, might do things like, for example, outfit a homeless person for a job interview at no cost. And the funds raised go to the church or charity that runs the shop. For some churches, running such a shop is the difference between closing and staying open.

The Salvation Army (a Wesleyan denomination) famously operates those across the US, as well as many RCC parishes.

 

[Sketcher]

Ohh... I wonder what they call them overseas.

It's a shop that sells mostly or entirely second-hand goods that have been donated. Often they're run by charities, staffed by volunteers, and as well as selling things at a very affordable price, might do things like, for example, outfit a homeless person for a job interview at no cost. And the funds raised go to the church or charity that runs the shop. For some churches, running such a shop is the difference between closing and staying open.

Thanks. We call them second-hand stores.

 

[GenaB]

Tithing in the Old Test. was basically taxation.
Israel was a theocracy, the Levitical priests acted as the civil government. So the Levite's tithe (Leviticus 27:30-33) was a precursor to today's income tax. Festival taxes (Deuteronomy 14:22-29) and smaller taxes, so the average Jew paid around 25%. They were also able to give in addition to that any amount from the heart. So in the NT we continue with the same practices but we are not commanded to tithe. I live in the States and pay taxes every year, nothing really changed from the OT. It supports the nation. In the NT we are only expected to give from the heart, and it may be in aiding others in ways that doesn't mean financially. We should be a cheerful giver 2 Corinthians 9:6-7.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Personally I don't see tithes in the New Testament for Christians.

I don't see Israel and the church being the same.

I guess it's called dispensationalism.

 

[Jesus_is_Saint]

Many pastors said that, "The more you give to the Lord, the more God will bless you back".
Is this what the Bible says?
What's the motif they said so?
To encourage us to give more money to Church?

 

[Jesus_is_Saint]

Another situation is this,
some small church is fully established by a pastor and his family.
So, the pastor indeed is the treasurer also, he controls the bank account of the church.

I heard that this type of church is no good, the pastor can misuse the money for selfish purpose.

What do you think?

 

[Jesus_is_Saint]

I do give tithe, but not always.
50% of tithe, maybe.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Another situation is this,
some small church is fully established by a pastor and his family.
So, the pastor indeed is the treasurer also, he controls the bank account of the church.

I heard that this type of church is no good, the pastor can misuse the money for selfish purpose.

What do you think?

Small church staff misuses $100. a week. Big deal.
Big church staff misuses $2500. a week. Big deal.
Happens every day in free america and twice a day in other countries.

Judas the betrayer was made treasurer by YHWH.
He was always a thief. YHWH always knew this.
Y'SHUA kept it a secret.

 

[Paidiske]

Many pastors said that, "The more you give to the Lord, the more God will bless you back".
Is this what the Bible says?
What's the motif they said so?
To encourage us to give more money to Church?

I think you can't buy God's blessing. Give if you feel convicted about it.

I think some people are interested in having a "successful" ministry - big congregations and budgets. I think that's a very dangerous measure of success.

Another situation is this,
some small church is fully established by a pastor and his family.
So, the pastor indeed is the treasurer also, he controls the bank account of the church.

I heard that this type of church is no good, the pastor can misuse the money for selfish purpose.

What do you think?

I definitely think that control of the money should not rest with the priest/pastor. That's too big a conflict of interest.

And, to be honest, it's a distraction. I'm glad to have a competent lay person managing the money, so that I can focus on leadership and teaching rather than budgets.

 

[Soyeong]

I heard some pastors say that tithe is for the Jews and God, the OT covenant.
For NT christians, you give money with thankful heart, it is not a rule that you must give 10%.
To a widow with children, 10% is too much for her.

God's righteousness is eternal, which means that the way practice righteousness has existed from the beginning before God made any covenants with man, though it has later been revealed through His covenants. In other words, the way to practice righteousness has remained unchanged from before, during, and after the Mosaic Covenant because it is based on God's righteousness, which has remained unchanged. While it is important to correctly understand who commands were given to, it is also important to pay attention to whom the commands were given by. So when God has given instructions in the OT for how to practice righteousness/act in line with His righteousness, and we are told in the NT that whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God (1 John 3:10) and that all OT Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16-17), then it shouldn't be any mystery where we should go to find out how to practice righteousness. Likewise, in 1 Peter 1:13-16, it says that we should practice holiness not because we should be like Jews or because we are under the Mosaic Covenant, but because God is holy, so the focus is on acting in line with the unchanging holiness of the God that we serve rather than on whom He gave instructions to for how to do so.

Jesus said that if we love him, then you will obey his commands (John 14:15), so while they are commands that should be obeyed with a thankful heart out of love and faith, they are nevertheless still commands. Giving 10% of your income to one person would likely be too much, so it would likely be better to spread it out among multiple people, though it might not be out of the question with prayerful consideration depending on their need.

 

[Goodbook]

I heard some pastors say that tithe is for the Jews and God, the OT covenant.
For NT christians, you give money with thankful heart, it is not a rule that you must give 10%.
To a widow with children, 10% is too much for her.

Thats right.
Tithe was the tax of the OT for israelites. Our taxes in our own countries can vary depending on income to more than 10%. Some up to 33%

But christians ought to give willingly and cheerfully. However what we give is not necessairly money. Even in the OT the tithe was actually food and produce.

 

[pdudgeon]

Many pastors said that, "The more you give to the Lord, the more God will bless you back".
Is this what the Bible says?
What's the motif they said so?
To encourage us to give more money to Church?

no. no. no. let's get this one correct.
the correct version is 'You can't outgive God'.

the emphasis between those two sayings--yours and mine-- is totally different. I hope you can see that.

in your saying above, the reason for giving is only to get.
but in the saying i gave you in return, the emphasis is put on what God already has.

His gifts are motivated by love of you,
and not on how much you trade or barter with Him.
Giving to God is not like playing the lottery.
You don't plunk down a quarter in hopes of getting 25K.

the very practical reason that God's blessings are just that--blessings--is that God--who owns all of heaven and earth-- has more to bless us with than we have to give Him.
Does this make sense to you?

He is generous. amazingly generous.
And He loves us and wants us to do well, but He also wants us to show that same love to others.
that is His motive in giving, and it should be our reason for giving to Him as well.

But somehow we miss that part entirely and we only see the example of His being generous to others, while on our part we give reluctantly and begrudgingly towards our God.

Like 2 year olds, everything we see is "mine!" and we don't want to part with it.
like 2 year olds, we're still drinking our milk when it comes to understanding God's word.
That's why many have not understood the basic concept of giving.
or of financial management.

so the problem is NOT that tithing is too heavy,
but that generosity costs them too much.

 

[WolfGate]

i'm very glad that you asked that question, because I'm in a position to answer it, having been there myself.

When i was first widdowed, my late husband and I had a joint savings account. I knew that i would be receiving the money from his life insurance, but i had no idea when that would be. meanwhile there were the usual expenses to be covered with a sudden unexpected death (hospital ambulance, mortuary, etc.).
long story short, i covered them and my tithe while waiting for some income.

The important part of this story is that God alone sustained me financially for the 4 months it took for the insurance to pay out and for the benefits to start comming in.
So for 4 months I had outflow but no income.

For 4 months all i had was trust in God to sustain me.

So putting that trust to the proof, what i did was to tithe on those expected benefits (because i had no income on which to tithe) while trusting in God to bring it about.
and He did.

I am glad to say that God is the best money manager I have ever encountered.
He taught me the very important difference between a need and a want, and continues those lessons to this very day.

Under His tutoring I am in better financial shape today than i ever was before, and I owe it all to Him.

pdudgeon - thank you for that testimony. That is an encouraging first hand story. Sorry for the loss you suffered but I am glad God sustained you and it appears brought you closer to him through the most challenging of times. God bless.

 

[Jesus_is_Saint]

I heard people said,
"if you are jobless, and you continue to give tithe,
God will bless you a job. You must show trust in God."

Is this true?

 

[All4Christ]

I heard people said,
"if you are jobless, and you continue to give tithe,
God will bless you a job. You must show trust in God."

Is this true?

Personally I don't think that is a definitive correlation. We do know that God loves us and will provide for us one way or another. However, we shouldn't give because we expect to get something from Him. The widow gave a small amount of money, but gave it willingly without fare fan, not expecting anything in return. That is the type of giving God loves.

As scripture says in Mark 12:

41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. 42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood."

2 Corinthians 9

6 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. 9 As it is written:

“He has dispersed abroad,
He has given to the poor;
His righteousness endures forever.”

That said, not all giving is money. Almsgiving also includes ministering to those around us. Ideally the church also uses some of the tithes the receive to help the needy. We too need to help each other.