Why do you, if you believe in "evolution" deny that there is most likely a "God"...?

[Neogaia777]

Why do you, if you believe in "evolution" deny that there is most likely a "God"...?

Of all the earth like planets out there, consider (those of you who believe in evolution) how many of them have, or more accurately "have had" long before us, have had lifeforms like us, on them... Probably billions, trillions perhaps, possibly even more... Would you deny that at the very least, at the very least, a "few" (but probably much more than that), continued evolving, some way, way, WAY "Beyond" us...

Consider the "limits" of physicality as it pertains to exploring and traversing the incredible vastness of the universe... Now of these "few" (but, probably many more), "how many" do you think "evolved" beyond being trapped and limited by physicality and physical matter and the "limits" of physical material "forms"...? And perhaps found a way to perhaps not even needing to be a part of the "physical", (as we define physical), universe... Becoming something else...?

Possible...?

What do you think these lifeforms would "do" in the universe as it pertains to lifeforms like us, who are now, what they once used to be, long, long ago...? Would they show themselves openly to us from the "realm", for lack of a better word, from which they now operate...? Could they even do that from there without having to manifest a physical form that isn't really their true form, because their true from cannot be seen from "this realm", this reality...? How would they interfere and choose to affect, guide and direct us, if they so chose to do so....?

Would they still exist long after this realm of physicality, this universe as we know it, comes to and end...? Did they exist "before" this realm of physicality or this physical universe even began...? Did they create this universe and perhaps others...?

As you can see, the God concept is not as "illogical" as you may think... And you guys who truly believe in "evolution" when considering the entire universe, should be able to see that the possibility is not only highly likely, but even a mathematical certainty...

God Bless!

 

[SkyWriting]

Why do you, if you believe in "evolution" deny that there is most likely a "God"...?

99% of evolution has nothing to do with the origins of mankind
so is not a problem for Christians.

 

[Gene2memE]

Why do you, if you believe in "evolution"

I don't "believe" in evolution. I accept it as the best explanation for biodiversity, based on my understanding of the evidence.

Acceptance of evolution is not a belief.

deny that there is most likely a "God"...?

I don't deny that there is most likely a God.

I just don't accept the claims of theists, as they have not passed my standards of burden of proof (which would be evidence for claims that is demonstrable, repeatable and non-contradictory).

This is the difference between strong/positive atheism and weak/neutral atheism.

Of all the earth like planets out there, consider (those of you who believe in evolution) how many of them have, or more accurately "have had" long before us, have had lifeforms like us, on them... Probably billions, trillions perhaps, possibly even more... Would you deny that at the very least, at the very least, a "few" (but probably much more than that), continued evolving, some way, way, WAY "Beyond" us...

Life other planets is a possibility - if I think that's what you're getting at.

Whether there is life that is "some way, way, WAY "Beyond" us" is impossible to determine though. Beyond finding some of the fundamentals for life as we know it in asteroids and comets, we have no indication of whether there is life on other planets, as yet. In addition to that, we have no idea if any of that life, if it does exist, has evolved to a point that we consider intelligent. Beyond that, we have no indication of whether any intelligent life form is more or less intelligent than us.

Consider the "limits" of physicality as it pertains to exploring and traversing the incredible vastness of the universe... Now of these "few" (but, probably many more), "how many" do you think "evolved" beyond being trapped and limited by physicality and physical matter and the "limits" of physical material "forms"...? And perhaps found a way to perhaps not even needing to be a part of the "physical", (as we define physical), universe... Becoming something else...?

I can't form a satisfactory answer on this question, as I have nothing to base the likelihood on. There is a possibility that such a thing has happened, but there is also a possibility that no such thing has happened. Given the dearth of evidence, it is impossible to assess the relative likelhood of either proposition.

What do you think these lifeforms would "do" in the universe as it pertains to lifeforms like us, who are now, what they once used to be, long, long ago...? Would they show themselves openly to us from the "realm", for lack of a better word, from which they now operate...? Could they even do that from there without having to manifest a physical form that isn't really their true form, because their true from cannot be seen from "this realm", this reality...? How would they interfere and choose to affect, guide and direct us, if they so chose to do so....?

Would they still exist long after this realm of physicality, this universe as we know it, comes to and end...? Did they exist "before" this realm of physicality or this physical universe even began...? Did they create this universe and perhaps others...?

As you can see, the God concept is not as "illogical" as you may think... And you guys who truly believe in "evolution" when considering the entire universe, should be able to see that the possibility is not only highly likely, but even a mathematical certainty...

God Bless!

You've based your hypothetical God concept on what ifs within what ifs. There's no mathematical certainty, there's not even a number you can attach to probability.

As far as I can see, your logic goes like this:

Life exists on this planet and evolution occurs
There may be other planets on which life may exist and evolve
This life may be intelligent
This life may have evolved to be more intelligent than humans
This life may be intelligent enough to have developed beyond physical limitations of matter
This life may choose to keep its existence hidden from us
This life may "exist "before" this realm of physicality or this physical universe even began" and may have "create[d] this universe and perhaps others"
This life may be considered God

So, that's two givens - life exists and evolution occurs - and at least seven hypothetical 'if' statements that are impossible to determine probability values for.

So, no, I don't accept your proposition that given the fact of evolution, God is "not only highly likely, but even a mathematical certainty".
As you note, God is a possibility. No possibility is a certainty, that's a contradiction in terms.
Your own language has disproven your hypothesis.

 

[Neogaia777]

Comments on this video and what it says...?

http://itbn.org/channels/tbn.html#ooid=Ztb2l1ZzravsTPzgVqX0taL-bvO-sLRD

God Bless!

 

[Inkfingers]

I believe in God, Evolution, and am not socially liberal.

The opportunities to receive hate and animosity are almost limitless.

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't "believe" in evolution. I accept it as the best explanation for biodiversity, based on my understanding of the evidence.

Acceptance of evolution is not a belief.



I don't deny that there is most likely a God.

I just don't accept the claims of theists, as they have not passed my standards of burden of proof (which would be evidence for claims that is demonstrable, repeatable and non-contradictory).

This is the difference between strong/positive atheism and weak/neutral atheism.



Life other planets is a possibility - if I think that's what you're getting at.

Whether there is life that is "some way, way, WAY "Beyond" us" is impossible to determine though. Beyond finding some of the fundamentals for life as we know it in asteroids and comets, we have no indication of whether there is life on other planets, as yet. In addition to that, we have no idea if any of that life, if it does exist, has evolved to a point that we consider intelligent. Beyond that, we have no indication of whether any intelligent life form is more or less intelligent than us.



I can't form a satisfactory answer on this question, as I have nothing to base the likelihood on. There is a possibility that such a thing has happened, but there is also a possibility that no such thing has happened. Given the dearth of evidence, it is impossible to assess the relative likelhood of either proposition.



You've based your hypothetical God concept on what ifs within what ifs. There's no mathematical certainty, there's not even a number you can attach to probability.

As far as I can see, your logic goes like this:

Life exists on this planet and evolution occurs
There may be other planets on which life may exist and evolve
This life may be intelligent
This life may have evolved to be more intelligent than humans
This life may be intelligent enough to have developed beyond physical limitations of matter
This life may choose to keep its existence hidden from us
This life may "exist "before" this realm of physicality or this physical universe even began" and may have "create[d] this universe and perhaps others"
This life may be considered God

So, that's two givens - life exists and evolution occurs - and at least seven hypothetical 'if' statements that are impossible to determine probability values for.

So, no, I don't accept your proposition that given the fact of evolution, God is "not only highly likely, but even a mathematical certainty".
As you note, God is a possibility. No possibility is a certainty, that's a contradiction in terms.
Your own language has disproven your hypothesis.

Look, I'm only trying to get strong, strict evolutionists most of which flat out deny the even the possibility of a creator God, or spirits or an invisible realm, "thinking" by stepping into their arena and line of thinking saying that the way they think, kinda proves that God or Spirits are not only very highly likely, but, based on the way they think almost mathematically impossible to deny...

That's the reason for the "may(s)" and "ifs"...

God Bless!

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Look, I'm only trying to get strong, strict evolutionists most of which flat out deny the even the possibility of a creator God, or spirits or an invisible realm, "thinking" by stepping into their arena and line of thinking saying that the way they think, kinda proves that God or Spirits are not only very highly likely, but, based on the way they think almost mathematically impossible to deny...

That's the reason for the "may(s)" and "ifs"...

God Bless!

You DO realize that creationists are a minority...right?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

When Christians become a 'hated minority' – CNN Belief Blog - CNN ...
religion . blogs . cnn.com/.../when-christians-become-a-hated-minority...
CNN
May 5, 2013 - When Christians become a 'hated minority'. Evangelical Christians say they are the new victims of intolerance - they're persecuted for ...

1. Christians in the Minority - Millions of Christians Harmed.‎
   www . opendoorsusa.org/Persecution/Minorities‎

Learn, Pray, and Act today to solve Christian Persecution around the world.
Accredited Charity – BBB Wise Giving Alliance

• About Open Doors
• Persecution News
• Take Action
• Christian Persecution

 

[RedPonyDriver]

and that has what to do with a minority of Christians being creationists? I think you're out of your league here buddy. Do you want to quit now?

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...ns_believe_the_bible_is_literal_inerrant.html

and now you will join my ignore list...I'm tired of this "discussion".

 

[Neogaia777]

You DO realize that creationists are a minority...right?

I'm a different breed of creationist, did you watch the video in my link in the prior post, I'd like to hear your take on it...

God Bless!

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why do you, if you believe in "evolution" deny that there is most likely a "God"...?

This is an invalid assumption.
Plenty of god believers accept evolution.

Of all the earth like planets out there, consider (those of you who believe in evolution) how many of them have, or more accurately "have had" long before us, have had lifeforms like us, on them... Probably billions, trillions perhaps, possibly even more... Would you deny that at the very least, at the very least, a "few" (but probably much more than that), continued evolving, some way, way, WAY "Beyond" us...

Consider the "limits" of physicality as it pertains to exploring and traversing the incredible vastness of the universe... Now of these "few" (but, probably many more), "how many" do you think "evolved" beyond being trapped and limited by physicality and physical matter and the "limits" of physical material "forms"...? And perhaps found a way to perhaps not even needing to be a part of the "physical", (as we define physical), universe... Becoming something else...?

We can look at the traits of species on earth to evaluate a kind of probability of those traits. Sight, for example is very probable: it evolved independently a couple dozen times. Echo-location is less probable, that evolved only 4-5 times independently.

The kind of stuff you are talking about (evolving "beyond" the physical): not even once.

It's also a nonsensical concept. Evolution is driven by genetics. DNA is a molecule. It's a physical thing, necessarily. So the idea of getting rid of the physical, through a process that is necessarily dependend on the physical, doesn't make any sense at all.

It's like proposing a process to produce "non-physical plastic".

So

Possible...?

No. It's a self-defeating proposition.

As you can see, the God concept is not as "illogical" as you may think...

Except that it is, as I have shown above. A necessarily physical process isn't going to get you to non-physical things.

And you guys who truly believe in "evolution" when considering the entire universe, should be able to see that the possibility is not only highly likely, but even a mathematical certainty...

Quite the opposite. It's a mathematical impossibility.

Life is a physical thing. So is the process of evolution.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Comments on this video and what it says...?

http://itbn.org/channels/tbn.html#ooid=Ztb2l1ZzravsTPzgVqX0taL-bvO-sLRD

God Bless!

Summary of what the video says?

 

[Gene2memE]

Look, I'm only trying to get strong, strict evolutionists most of which flat out deny the even the possibility of a creator God, or spirits or an invisible realm,

I accepted the evidence for evolution when I was a Christian.
I accept the evidence for evolution now.

I never believed in 'spirits' on an 'invisible realm' even as a young Christian - all that rang false to me anyway.

Acceptance/rejection of the evidence for evolution has nothing to do with atheism - which is a single position on a question of acceptance of the claims of theism.

So, I don't accept your original premise. I think most "evolutionists" are theists of one stripe or another, who accept some form of creator god, where that being is literal or allegorical.

"thinking" by stepping into their arena and line of thinking saying that the way they think, kinda proves that God or Spirits are not only very highly likely, but, based on the way they think almost mathematically impossible to deny...

That's the reason for the "may(s)" and "ifs"...

God Bless!

Apart from a couple of opening premises in your initial paragraph, there was almost nothing in your hypothetical that was in line with any realistic thinking that has to do with astrobiology, exobiology, evolution or atheism.

If that's what you think that atheists and individuals who accept evolution think, then I feel you need to sit down and have VERY hard look at the assumptions you are making about people and their though processes. Because, you're about as wrong as you could be with those hypotheticals.

 

[Neogaia777]

I accepted the evidence for evolution when I was a Christian.
I accept the evidence for evolution now.

I never believed in 'spirits' on an 'invisible realm' even as a young Christian - all that rang false to me anyway.

Acceptance/rejection of the evidence for evolution has nothing to do with atheism - which is a single position on a question of acceptance of the claims of theism.

So, I don't accept your original premise. I think most "evolutionists" are theists of one stripe or another, who accept some form of creator god, where that being is literal or allegorical.



Apart from a couple of opening premises in your initial paragraph, there was almost nothing in you hypothetical that was in line with any realistic thinking that has to do with astrobiology, exobiology, evolution or atheism.

If that's what you think that atheists and individuals who accept evolution think, then I feel you need to sit down and have VERY hard look at the assumptions you are making about people and their though processes. Because, you're about as wrong as you could be with those hypotheticals.

This is an invalid assumption.
Plenty of god believers accept evolution.



We can look at the traits of species on earth to evaluate a kind of probability of those traits. Sight, for example is very probable: it evolved independently a couple dozen times. Echo-location is less probable, that evolved only 4-5 times independently.

The kind of stuff you are talking about (evolving "beyond" the physical): not even once.

It's also a nonsensical concept. Evolution is driven by genetics. DNA is a molecule. It's a physical thing, necessarily. So the idea of getting rid of the physical, through a process that is necessarily dependend on the physical, doesn't make any sense at all.

It's like proposing a process to produce "non-physical plastic".



No. It's a self-defeating proposition.



Except that it is, as I have shown above. A necessarily physical process isn't going to get you to non-physical things.



Quite the opposite. It's a mathematical impossibility.

Life is a physical thing. So is the process of evolution.

I got one word for you both: "Denial"... If you are a strict believer in evolution and "fully follow" that line of thinking to it's only reasonable, logical conclusion, if your being completely honest and not just "in denial" there is "no way" to reject what was said...

Review it carefully and "think" please, and follow evolution to it's full conclusion, considering the "entire universe", please...

There is no other conclusion...

God Bless!

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I got one word for you both: "Denial"... If you are a strict believer in evolution and "fully follow" that line of thinking to it's only reasonable, logical conclusion, if your being completely honest and not just "in denial" there is "no way" to reject what was said...

I have explained to you why your line of thought is anything BUT reasonable, logical, etc.

The only one in denial (or rather "desperate") here, is you.

Evolution is driven by genetics. Things evolve literally because the DNA molecule undergoes changes. It all starts with that molecule. It's the molecule that "determines" how the organism works and looks.

To suggest that evolution, which is a physical process which acts on physical molecules which in turn builds physical bodies which are then subject to a physical fitness test (=natural selection), can somehow lead to non-physical beings , is absurd to the highest degree.

Review it carefully and "think" please, and follow evolution to it's full conclusion, considering the "entire universe", please...

That's exactly what I did.

Maybe you should take your own advice.

Evolution is literally the incremental changes of a physical DNA molecule.
That's what it is. It will never end up in a "non-physical" thing. That's just not how it works.

What you are talking about, is nothing short of magic.

There is no other conclusion...

You mean, you don't want to hear about another conclusion, because of your dogmatic beliefs concerning gods and spirits....

 

[Gene2memE]

I got one word for you both: "Denial"... If you are a strict believer in evolution and "fully follow" that line of thinking to it's only reasonable, logical conclusion, if your being completely honest and not just "in denial" there is "no way" to reject what was said...

Review it carefully and "think" please, and follow evolution to it's full conclusion, considering the "entire universe", please...

There is no other conclusion...

God Bless!

So, when called out on fanciful hypotheticals based on caricatures of thinking concerning both evolution and atheism, your reaction is to simply double down on your faulty reasoning and claim your opponents are in denial.

Out-stand-ing.

Full marks there, make no mistakes!

If you think that there is "no other conclusion" from hypotheticals about evolutionary biology and exobiology other than beings that:

• "evolved" beyond being trapped and limited by physicality and physical matter and the "limits" of physical material "forms"
• "perhaps found a way to perhaps not even needing to be a part of the "physical", (as we define physical), universe"
• "still exist long after this realm of physicality, this universe as we know it, comes to and end"
• "exist "before" this realm of physicality or this physical universe even began"
• "create this universe and perhaps others"

then I fear I'm wasting my time, as you appear impervious to reason.

The evidence from exobiology and evolution suggests the following:
There may be life on other planets. There may not be life on other planets. If such life does exist, it may or may not be intelligent.

That's it. It really doesn't lead anywhere else - and it certainty doesn't lead to hyper advanced, non-corporeal beings that have evolved to transcend space-time and go about creating universes while being hidden from observation, for some reason. Oh, and cares if you mastuperate and find the smell of dead animals pleasing.

The sole example of evolution we do have - life on earth - suggests that the evolution of intelligent life that is capable of something as complex as space travel is very, very rare. We have one example of it - us - and a couple of might have beens in some of our archaic hominid antecedants in the 3.8 billion year record of life on the planet.

The most mathematical certain statements I can make about evolution are these - species change to suit their environment and any one species is vastly more likely to die out than survive.

Contemplate those.

 

[Neogaia777]

See this please...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-on-numbers-all-of-it-we-can-observe.7967464/

This is what "I" believe, but I stepped into your beliefs for a while, and tried to make you see the reason and end results and inevitable conclusions of your logic, but, "whatever"...

I no longer feel or have the need of "proving" anything to any of you, or even God, or the enemy, or my enemies, for God has spoke to me and warned about when I did, but, I do have something to "prove" to" myself"... And, that is, that I can find and know the "truth"... And, I'm almost there, I would like very much for others to see it and know it also, but, if they don't, I don't feel or have the need of, proving anything to any of you anymore, I'm doing this for me now...

God Bless!

 

[Gene2memE]

See this please...

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/this-reality-of-physicality-is-an-illusion-based-and-built-on-numbers-all-of-it-we-can-observe.7967464/

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-on-numbers-all-of-it-we-can-observe.7967464/

Read it. Tried to understand it. Got rather tired of reading unsupported claims and baseless assumptions. Almost laughed out loud when you linked to an Institute for Creation Research "documentary" at the end, when talking about reality and evolution.

You've disappeared down the rabbit hole of solipsism. Congratulations, you've found an unfalsifiable hypothesis to drool over.

This is what "I" believe,

That's fine. But I see no reason why I should share any of those beliefs. They don't seem to even remotely accord with reality.

but I stepped into your beliefs for a while,

I don't think you did.

You stepped into what you though were beliefs held by those who understand evolution. But, you plainly have a seriously flawed understanding of evolutionary biology. So you failed to step into those beliefs properly. As a result, you ended up seriously mis-representing the theory you were trying to follow and extend.

and tried to make you see the reason and end results and inevitable conclusions of your logic, but, "whatever"...

Very little of what you argued could be a logical extension of any part of biology. I can grant you the possibility of life on other planets, even intelligent life. When you start inventing non-corporeal, a-temporal, pseudo-omnipotent beings that create universes and interact with people while remaining hidden from them, that's where things start to break down.

I no longer feel or have the need of "proving" anything to any of you,

Then you've both abdicated the argument - you made a claim and refuse to support it - and have made it pointless to continue discussion on the topic - as your not open to changing your position. Those that make the claim bear the burden to support it.

And, I'm almost there, I would like very much for others to see it and know it also, but, if they don't, I don't feel or have the need of, proving anything to any of you anymore, I'm doing this for me now...

If you really want to do something for yourself, I'd suggest enrolling in a basic evolutionary biology course - there are quite a few free ones online - and working out why speculation about life on other planets doesn't lead to the "mathematical certainty" that God is a being from another planet that evolved.

 

[MasonP]

Why do you, if you believe in "evolution" deny that there is most likely a "God"...?

People do not "believe" in evolution they accept it as being the best explanation of why things are as they are, why would anyone need a God when evolution explains things so well? could it be that a God is needed for other reasons? to provide an after life perhaps? how many would call themselves Christians if Christianity did not "promise" them an after life?

 

[faroukfarouk]

You DO realize that creationists are a minority...right?

Just remember that what actually happened in the beginning - for now I'll say no more - is inherently unlikely to be decided by what a contemporary majority is pleased to want to believe.