Total Depravity

[EmSw]

How much good? For how long? Every day? Every hour?

What if forget to do good on Monday? Can I double up on Tuesday?

How much evil does it take for one to be lost? For how long? Every hour? Every day?

If a man forgets to do evil on Monday, can he double up on Tuesday?

Besides, how much good do you think you should do? Are you trying to please the Lord? Are you trying to live half your life for God and half for yourself? Do you live 'in Christ' half the time? Are you a 'lukewarm' Christian?

Answer for yourself, how much good should you do for the Savior who has done so much for you?

Salvation is of The Lord says Jonah, not a man's efforts or works.

So, you like Old Testament salvation? Have you paid what you have vowed?

Your cherry-picked verses are out of context...jump back to verse 24!

Jesus said we pass from death to life since we believe on The One sent we have everlasting life.

There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus...RIGHT?

Maybe you should read the whole verse.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

If you do not do good, then you are walking to the flesh. If you walk to the flesh, there is condemnation.

How did Lazarus come forth? Because of his good deeds?

Paul says if we are united in His death, we will certainly be united in His resurrection.

The Pelagian fallacy that man is good enough or can do good without God is troubling.

You know and I know Lazarus' resurrection is not the resurrection in John 5.

How are you united in His death? Want to tell us what that entails? Is united in His death mean you continue to do evil?

I've asked this twice already and you haven't answered. Please answer for everyone.

If man is totally depraved, from where did the good he does originate?

 

[DingDing]

The Bible doesn't say that mankind is incapable of good thoughts. ...

So now you are saying that fallen man is capable of good? So man can respond to God? So man can participate in his redemption?

 

[DingDing]

...
I have repeatedly pointed to the grace of God, while you tout man's goodness.
...
The topic is depravity. Specifically, pre-salvation depravity.

IOW, carnal man is in a sinful, depraved condition and cannot choose God without grace.

This is the gospel.

I tout both God's grace and man's ability to respond to it. Your gospel is your gospel, and it is not good news to the masses.

 

[bottomofsandal]

If man is totally depraved, from where did the good he does originate?

Clearly you are not reading my posts. Give the post number where I said man is totally depraved.

You keep hanging your hat on man's goodness. Hitler did good. What's your point?


The Bible says we are saved by grace. The Bible calls us sinners. Jesus calls man evil.

If you are not familiar with the full counsel of God, then dialogue will be arduous.

I know it is difficult for Pelagians to attempt making The Bible prove their pov.

 

[Radrook]

So now you are saying that fallen man is capable of good? So man can respond to God? So man can participate in his redemption?

Abraham is referred to as God's friend.

James 2:
…22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did. 23And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “- Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God. 24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.…

Other men, such as Noah and Enoch are spoken of having walked with God or lived a life in harmony with his will:

Genesis 5:22
Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters.

Genesis 6:9
These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

 

[EmSw]

Clearly you are not reading my posts. Give the post number where I said man is totally depraved.

You keep hanging your hat on man's goodness. Hitler did good. What's your point?


The Bible says we are saved by grace. The Bible calls us sinners. Jesus calls man evil.

If you are not familiar with the full counsel of God, then dialogue will be arduous.

I know it is difficult for Pelagians to attempt making The Bible prove their pov.

Stubborn one, aren't you?

Where does the good any man does originate?

 

[EmSw]

Clearly you are not reading my posts. Give the post number where I said man is totally depraved.

You keep hanging your hat on man's goodness. Hitler did good. What's your point?

The Bible says we are saved by grace. The Bible calls us sinners. Jesus calls man evil.

If you are not familiar with the full counsel of God, then dialogue will be arduous.

I know it is difficult for Pelagians to attempt making The Bible prove their pov.

Where did Hitler's good originate?

Grace has appeared to all men. What does grace teach all men?

 

[bottomofsandal]

I tout both God's grace and man's ability to respond to it. Your gospel is your gospel, and it is not good news to the masses.

So you have cut Ephesians 2 out of your Bible?

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


Grace. Gift of God. Faith. Gift of God. Not of works. Tell me how a dead man responds?

Do you seriously believe a dead man can quicken himself ? Not of works? (that's man's works)


Colossians 2:13 New King James Version (NKJV)

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

Ephesians 2:1 New King James Version (NKJV)

2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,



Let me go make some popcorn...

 

[bottomofsandal]

Stubborn one, aren't you?

Where does the good any man does originate?

Pot...kettle...black...my friend!


Fallen, depraved, evil man can perform good deeds. I never said otherwise.

Putting motive and condition aside for a moment, any good has it's origin in God.

If you prefer to say man (made in the image of God) has a little God-spark in his carcass...OK.


But, doing good deeds does not make an evil man good, neither does a good man become evil by doing an evil deed? <<< QUESTION

 

[bottomofsandal]

Where did Hitler's good originate?

Grace has appeared to all men. What does grace teach all men?

Hitler is in hell. Now what? His own "goodness" was insufficient. Right?


Yes, Paul tells Titus that the grace of God has appeared to all men.

The evidence tells us all men are not saved. So what did God's grace teach?

What source would you be using to show God's grace taught all men?

 

[bottomofsandal]

Man was created in the depraved, dead in trespasses, sins, evil, wicked, enemy of God, image of God.
That's what you believe?

Shouldn't we be more interested in the second Adam?

We know sin entered the world through Adam. The man who was made in God's image is now corrupt.

Sin is in the world, man is dead in trespasses and sins. See Ephesians 2:1 and Colossians 2:13.

Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Ergo, man is a sinner. Paul called himself CHIEF of sinners.


In Luke 11, Jesus calls men evil. All these adjectives I use to describe man are not my own. In The Bible.

Why do people take offense when God calls them evil, wicked, vile, sinful, enemy of God, and unrighteous?

Man has a pride problem. Man has an exaggerated sense of self-importance. Man is nothing but a criminal.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Shouldn't we be more interested in the second Adam?

We know sin entered the world through Adam. The man who was made in God's image is now corrupt.

Sin is in the world, man is dead in trespasses and sins. See Ephesians 2:1 and Colossians 2:13.

Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Ergo, man is a sinner. Paul called himself CHIEF of sinners.


In Luke 11, Jesus calls men evil. All these adjectives I use to describe man are not my own. In The Bible.

Why do people take offense when God calls them evil, wicked, vile, sinful, enemy of God, and unrighteous?

Man has a pride problem. Man has an exaggerated sense of self-importance. Man is nothing but a criminal.

I think we've got our word wires crossed here. It appears we're talking on separate inroads to a topic neither understands for that distraction.
I hope this makes my position more clear.

Christians are Saints of God. We are not all those adjectives that pertained to us prior to our being reborn.

One of the saddest things I've heard a Christian say and more than once is, I know I'm not worthy of God's love, grace, salvation. Sometimes they say just one thing, at other times they run through that list. "I'm not worthy....."

God thought I was so worthy, in his foreknowledge and predestination of this world I'm born into, that he sent his only begotten son to this planet. So that he could be killed and save me from that same fate.
When God see's me worthy of that, I can't disrespect my Dad and tell him, he shouldn't have. (i.e. "I'm not worthy of God's decision for me to know Jesus." Telling God he doesn't know what he's talking about isn't something I advise.)

 

[bottomofsandal]

I think we've got our word wires crossed here. It appears we're talking on separate inroads to a topic neither understands for that distraction.
I hope this makes my position more clear.

Christians are Saints of God. We are not all those adjectives that pertained to us prior to our being reborn.

One of the saddest things I've heard a Christian say and more than once is, I know I'm not worthy of God's love, grace, salvation. Sometimes they say just one thing, at other times they run through that list. "I'm not worthy....."

God thought I was so worthy, in his foreknowledge and predestination of this world I'm born into, that he sent his only begotten son to this planet. So that he could be killed and save me from that same fate.
When God see's me worthy of that, I can't disrespect my Dad and tell him, he shouldn't have. (i.e. "I'm not worthy of God's decision for me to know Jesus." Telling God he doesn't know what he's talking about isn't something I advise.)

Thank you for that!

I have said repeatedly what The Bible says regarding man's position before salvation.

I do not appreciate how some are acting, but I know the boards can be brutal.


We all deserved hell, but God in His mercy and grace saved us. Glory to God for His indescribable gift!

 

[Radrook]

This whole thread seems to be based on a false dilemma.

 

[bottomofsandal]

This whole thread seems to be based on a false dilemma.

I believed it to be a Calvinist TULIP proposition isolating the "T".

I would hope any soteriological discourse would designate man's depravity as a foundational truth.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

This whole thread seems to be based on a false dilemma.

How so? Please elaborate.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

I believed it to be a Calvinist TULIP proposition isolating the "T".

I would hope any soteriological discourse would designate man's depravity as a foundational truth.

Would 'depravity' be subjective or objective in the equation? Or would that be an individuals call depending on where they are in their journey of life and with or without Christ?

 

[Job8]

So now you are saying that fallen man is capable of good?

Of course fallen man is capable of good. Read Romans chapter 2. That does not make him as righteous as God, but it does not make him as evil as Satan. We need to always see what the Bible has to say about these matters, not what theologians presume.

 

[sdowney717]

T in the TULIP can also be thought of as total inability.
http://www.theopedia.com/total-depravity
Summary of the doctrine
The doctrine of total inability teaches that people are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, as he requires, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and philanthropy are destructive to the extent that these originate from a human imagination, passions, and will.

Total depravity does not mean, however, that people are as bad as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Although total depravity is easily confused with philosophical cynicism, the doctrine teaches optimism concerning God's love for what he has made and God's ability to accomplish the ultimate good that he intends for his creation. In particular, in the process of salvation, it is argued that God overcomes man's inability with his divine grace and enables men and women to choose to follow him, though the precise means of this overcoming varies between the theological systems.

Philippians 2:21New King James Version (NKJV)
21 For all seek their own, not the things which are of Christ Jesus.

 

[Radrook]

How so? Please elaborate.

Because it is portrayed as an either mankind is totally depraved or it isn't totally depraved issue. A third possibility is denied, the possibility of being sometimes depraved and sometimes not depending on our exercise of free will. In short, the reason why the dilemma is false is because this limited choice goes completely contrary to all biblical evidence which shows that mankind is indeed capable of both depravity and sanctity..