Can Universalism be Christian?

[anonymous person]

When it comes to principles of interpreting verses in the bible one is to never interpret the many in light of the few which speak on any given subject, but one is to interpret the few in light of the many. Presenting me with a few verses which can be used to support universalism while ignoring the numerous passages which refute it is simply cherry picking.

 

[miknik5]

Another thing Those who are called to a "better resurrection" are those who will suffer for HIS NAME

 

[miknik5]

Can you take a moment to review in Revelation those who did not love their lives to the death but held to the testimony of Jesus.

What does The One and Only Holy Spirit of God say of these?

 

[ClementofA]

When it comes to principles of interpreting verses in the bible one is to never interpret the many in light of the few which speak on any given subject, but one is to interpret the few in light of the many. Presenting me with a few verses which can be used to support universalism while ignoring the numerous passages which refute it is simply cherry picking.

I'm quite sure i can whittle your "many" down to nada.
I've already sunk quite a few in this thread alone.

OTOH there are sites where some universalists cite 100's of verses for their position:

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

RE your quote i add another:

"Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into a friend. -Martin Luther King Jr."

"God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future. (Martin Luther’s letter to Hanseu Von Rechenberg, 1522.)

 

[miknik5]

I'm quite sure i can whittle your "many" down to nada.
I've already sunk quite a few in this thread alone.

OTOH there are sites where some universalists cite 100's of verses for their position:

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

RE your quote i add another:

"Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into a friend. -Martin Luther King Jr."

"God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future. (Martin Luther’s letter to Hanseu Von Rechenberg, 1522.)

And how did man come to even understand the immeasurable unbelievable extent of Gods love for His creation

 

[miknik5]

But you are right about one thing. The only element of "man made material" that can be added to The Foundation is Love. A perfect unbiased love for the souls of all men

For how loving is it to withhold the Truth of The Gospel from even one man?

It's like the lazy servant who knew His Masters work but instead of casting the seeds of life, he decided not to go out thereby hoarding the seeds and hindering the crops that might have come up in His Masters field

Even with earthly eyes we can see why the Employer would be angry

 

[miknik5]

Another question the 24 Elders making up the New Jerusalem.

Who might they be?

 

[[serious]]

Great OP.

I think it breaks down to two questions:
1. Could universalism be right?
2. Is nailing the rules for salvation a requirement of salvation?

Now, number one is tricky, as views of the afterlife are very varied through the bible and church history.

Number two is a bit easier. Nowhere in the bible does it say that your view of the afterlife is a salvation risking issue. If it were, large swaths of the faithful would be cut out of heaven (Sorry sadducees) despite trying to faithfully follow God. Making such an issue a salvation issue is actually probably a riskier prospect since, as the bible says, by your own measure you will be judged. If you say universalists aren't christian because they messed up a detail of the afterlife, you'd better be absolutely spot on. You don't want to get to the gates and have St Peter sitting there saying, "oh, sorry, purgatory is totally a thing, and by your standard, that means no heaven for you!"

 

[anonymous person]

I am unaware of any place Scripture states "Not all will be saved." Scripture speaks of those who are perishing, and those who will go the way to destruction, and speaks of those who will taste the second death in the lake of fire and brimstone (etc); but it seems to me that it requires an interpretive choice to see these as a definitive "Not all will be saved."

LOL!

What else must Jesus say to get His point across?

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word "eternal" in both places is "aionios" which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2) without beginning; 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word "punishment" is the word "kolasis" and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering--'to punish, punishment.'"

 

[twin.spin]

Universalism is simply another one of Satan's lies that is repackaged from the garden of Eden: "Did God really say, ... you will surely die ?"
Universalism downplays blasphemy against the Holy Spirit to something other than "never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

Jesus said: "but whoever does not believe stands condemned already". If Universalism is true, then those who don't believe are what ... condemned to a waiting line in the afterlife till you get right this time while those who believe in this life get the fast pass entrance?

 

[Hillsage]

Universalism is simply another one of Satan's lies that is repackaged from the garden of Eden: "Did God really say, ... you will surely die ?"
Universalism downplays blasphemy against the Holy Spirit to something other than "never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

Universalism downplays nothing. It does explain how your mis-translation has deceived you though. HELL YES TRANSLATION quote has a shortcoming which is more fully explained below in more scholarly translations than ECT people read. But non deceptive translations agree in both places.

YOUNGS LITERAL TRANSLATION MAR 3:29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness - to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'

MAT 12:32 And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming.

And since we believe that the plan of God is a plan of the ages, your bible simply falls short not only in the revealing of the ages. Maybe that rascal you mentioned earlier had something to do with deceiving them....and you.

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

And in those "ages to come" who is He going to 'shew His grace', which has saved you, to? We believe it will be those whom he did give 'faith' to believe here in this age. And neither were they "called, drawn, chosen" or, best of all "ordained TO believe"....like US. In my posts RED means 'bible' BTW.

 

[ClementofA]

What else must Jesus say to get His point across?

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word "eternal" in both places is "aionios" which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2) without beginning; 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word "punishment" is the word "kolasis" and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering--'to punish, punishment.'"

There are other dictionaries that don't agree with your ECT brand above, you know? Even a large percentage of ECT lexicons don't even agree with it.

Have you ever studied the word aionios for yourself? Or kolasis?

If not then you've barely scratched the surface of this topic & are far out of your league.

This might be as good a place to start as any:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

 

[[serious]]

Reminder, the op does not ask, "are universalists right?" It asks, "can universalists be christian?"

 

[miknik5]

Universalism downplays nothing. It does explain how your mis-translation has deceived you though. HELL YES TRANSLATION quote has a shortcoming which is more fully explained below in more scholarly translations than ECT people read. But non deceptive translations agree in both places.

YOUNGS LITERAL TRANSLATION MAR 3:29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness - to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'

MAT 12:32 And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming.

And since we believe that the plan of God is a plan of the ages, your bible simply falls short not only in the revealing of the ages. Maybe that rascal you mentioned earlier had something to do with deceiving them....and you.

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

And in those "ages to come" who is He going to 'shew His grace', which has saved you, to? We believe it will be those whom he did give 'faith' to believe here in this age. And neither were they "called, drawn, chosen" or, best of all "ordained TO believe"....like US. In my posts RED means 'bible' BTW.

Is that supposed to be proof of universal salvation?

 

[Razare]

Well, if that's your definition of universalism, I would be one then.

I do hope I get to heaven and find out when we open the books and everything... everyone gave their heart to the Lord Jesus. I hope, that as people took their last breaths they gave their hearts to Jesus.

But that anyone might not have done this, and might have rejected Christ, is why I would not be a universalist. I hope they have all accepted him, but had they not, I understand they are judged by their works, by which none are proved righteous.

 

[SkyWriting]

What makes you think God has answered our prayers before the beginning of time?

Originally from personal experience and years of analysis. But this has been backed up
by the experiences of others and scripture as well, eventually.

"Therefore, I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them,
and they shall be granted unto you."--Mark 11: 24

"It shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer
and while they are yet speaking, I will hear."--Isaiah 65: 24

Luke 10:20
Nevertheless, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

Luke 24:44
Jesus said to them, "These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms."

Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you, my true yokefellow, to help these women who have labored with me for the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.


Revelation 13:8
And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

 

[SkyWriting]

Mostly depends upon 'which' bible you read then, doesn't it? That's why more scholarly ones, not even having the word 'eternal' in them regarding 'judgment of any kind'...kind of kink the orthodox 'rigidly straight' line of indoctrination.How come I've never seen anyone here, ever refute the 'numerous' translations 'of the bible' which do so?

New International Version
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

New Living Translation
but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This is a sin with eternal consequences."

English Standard Version
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—

Berean Study Bible
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin."

Berean Literal Bible
But whoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit does not have forgiveness, to the age, but is guilty of eternal sin."

New American Standard Bible
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin "--

King James Bible
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" --

International Standard Version
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never be forgiven, but is guilty of eternal sin."

NET Bible
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin"

New Heart English Bible
but whoever may blaspheme against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"?

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“But there is never forgiveness to whoever will blaspheme against The Spirit of Holiness, but he is condemned to eternal judgment;”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
But whoever curses the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. He is guilty of an everlasting sin."

New American Standard 1977
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—

Jubilee Bible 2000
but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit shall never have forgiveness but is obligated to eternal judgment,

King James 2000 Bible
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit has never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal judgment:

American King James Version
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost has never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

American Standard Version
but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin:

Douay-Rheims Bible
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin.

Darby Bible Translation
but whosoever shall speak injuriously against the Holy Spirit, to eternity has no forgiveness; but lies under the guilt of an everlasting sin;

English Revised Version
but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin:

Webster's Bible Translation
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit never hath forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Weymouth New Testament
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, he remains for ever unabsolved: he is guilty of a sin of the Ages."

World English Bible
but whoever may blaspheme against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"

Young's Literal Translation
but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'

 

[AmericanChristian91]

I used to be on the ECT train, but now im not 100% convinced of that.

Im not 100% sure of UR as well, but I do have hope, that non-Christians who die have a chance in believing in Jesus Christ.

This is something I have come to because of the fact that many humans have existed before Christ, died not ever knowing him. Then you have people living post-Christ but not becoming a Christian because of distance, such as people in Africa, Australia, or the later called New World, etc. You also have people who have heard of Christianity but are raised in a culture which influences them not becoming a Christian (an example being someone born in country where most people are muslims). There is of course people who do encounter Christians, but the way these Christians acts, turns the people away from Christ. Examples being how some Christians treated the native Americans to how self identifying Christians have not always shown love to different types of people, whether it be non-Christians or a different variation of Christianity or some other difference (example being how some Christians don't treat gays with respect, some even saying they can't be attracted to the same sex and also be a believer in Christ, or perhaps how a black man is treated in the old south, etc).

However if Universal Reconciliation isn't correct, that doesn't mean Christians who believe in that are false Christians. Being a Christian does not mean your beliefs have to be 100% correct. Young Earth Creationism (YEC) I see as not true, but those that follow YEC are still real Christians.

 

[SkyWriting]

This is something I have come to because of the fact that many humans have existed before Christ, died not ever knowing him.

That is covered.....

19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

 

[AmericanChristian91]

That is covered.....

19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

While many cultures beyond Christianity have come to believe in some type of God(s), there is more steps to become a Christian besides believing that a God exists.

It would be unwise to use that verse to say that people who haven't heard of Christ are to be blamed for not finding out about Christ and accepting him as God's son who died for our sins.

It is not a coincidence in which before Christianity encountered the New World in 1492, there was no Christianity on those continents.