Der Alter: When the NT was written did they use koine Greek as it was spoken and written at the time or did they make up an entirely new language or change the meaning of some words? It appears to me that the NT writers used koine Greek and retained the meaning of all the words. For example “oikos” meant “house” before the NT was written and in the NT it means “house.” Strange that the only time the Hell, no! crowd changes the meaning of words is when it contradicts their false doctrine.
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You're the one who claimed Origen changed the meaning of aionion from how Plato used it. Of course no proof was given to support that theory.
My proof was Plato, Philo and Aristotle. You touted Origen as if he was the be all end all authority on the word aionios, and you claimed that Origen did not use aionios to mean eternal or something like that.
Regarding the differences between Classical/Plato's & NT Greek:
".......Changes in vocabulary are of course too numerous to list here."
https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jtreat/koine/classical.html
This proves nothing about aion and ainios
It seems Plato made up a new word, aionion, that didn't exist before. And gave it some strange idea that was never used in the Scriptures. And he changed the meaning of the word aion from those who were before him. And those who lived after him didn't always follow his notions of either word.
Your source does not mention Plato at all. Unsupported opinions from people with no qualifications in Greek are irrelevant.
Plato was in the classical Greek period, not that of the written NT koine Greek some half a millenium later. Of course in that period of time words can & often do change meaning. Today we don't speak in KJV English & quite a number of the words have changed meanings. Also it appears that koine Greek was more geared to the layman, not the philosopher types, e.g. Plato:
Once again unsupported opinions are irrelevant.
"Differences Between Classical and Hellenistic Greek"
"Robertson states the basic differences succinctly. Koiné was more practical than academic, putting the stress on clarity rather than eloquence. Its grammar was simplified, exceptions were decreased and generalized, inflections were dropped or harmonized, and sentence-construction made easier. Koiné was the language of life and not of books"
https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jtreat/koine/classical.html
Robertson is an excellent source. He taught graduate level Greek for more than 47 years. What did Robertson say about aion/aionios?
A.T. Robertson Word Pictures in the NT
Matthew 25:46 The word aiōnios (from aiōn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word.
So it's questionable how relevant Plato's opinions re aion/ion are, or that of any of his followers like Philo, to the usage of such words in the NT.
Robertson says nothing which supports this unsupported opinion, thus it is irrelevant.
Der Alter said: Did you write this in post #577? “How many writers from Moses to Thomas Aquinas do you suppose used the words aion & aionion?” That implies that Moses used the words “aion” and “aionios.”
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Not implied. Next.
You do not know Greek and you seem to have a problem with English as well.
Der Alter says: If you intend to show that Plato’s use of aionios is wrong cite other writers contemporary with or prior to Plato. That later writers use Greek words in a figurative way does not change the inherent meaning.
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I've referred to Scripture, Origen & other ancient sources to argue against aionion being eternal in Scripture, or at least in reference to punishment, etc. Also that Plato's use of the word as timeless is not found in the Scriptures. Evidently the inspired authors rejected that idea.
Later writers use aion & aionion in a figurative way?
Circular argument! More irrelevant unsupported opinion.
Der Alter said: No, zero, none evidence for your claim. Jesus called Herod a “fox.” Lk 13;32 Was he actually a fox? Jesus called two of His disciples “sons of thunder” Mar 3:17. Were they actually sons of thunder? Jesus called Peter, “rock.” Was he actually a rock? That is called figurative language, for example saying someone "is as big as a house."
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I thought we were discussing aion/ion, not foxes. You didn't give a single example of either word used figuratively.
The first recorded use of aionios was eternal, unending, everlasting any other use would be figurative as in the examples I gave.
No evidence for my claim? Jesus spoke of the "end of the aion". Did He really mean an eternal eon? Even amongst your own ECT biased sources is an admission aion means properly (literally), an age. And that usage prior to Plato was aion = "life".
G165 αἰών aiōn
Thayer Definition:
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age
Bauer, Arndt Gingrich, Danker Greek lexicon of the NT
αἰών ( Hom. +; Herm. Wr. ; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. , Sib. Or. ) time, age.
1. very long time, eternity — a. of time gone by, the past, earliest times, then eternity oiJ a{gioi ajpÆ aijw`no" profh`tai the holy prophets fr. ages long past ( cf. Hes ., Theog. 609; Peri; u{you" 34, 4 tou;" ajpÆ aij. rJhvtora" ; Cass. Dio 63, 20 tw`n ajpo; tou` aij. JRwmaivwn ; Inschr. v. Magn. 180, 4; Dit., Syll. 3 index; Gen 6:4 ; Tob 4:12 ; Sir 14:17 ; 51:8 ; En. 14, 1; 99, 14; Jos. , Bell. 1, 12) Lk 1:70 ; Ac 3:21 ; to make known from of old Ac 15:18 ; pro; panto;" t. aij. before time began Jd 25 a (for the combination with pa`" cf. Sallust. c. 20 p. 36, 5 to;n pavnta aijw`na =through all eternity); pl. pro; tw`n aij. Somn. 1, 19; Jos. , Bell. 5, 442; Sir 1:4 ; Sib. Or. , fgm. 1, 16 of God movno" eij" aijw`na k. ejx aijw`no" ).
W. neg. foll. ejk tou` aijw`no" oujk hjkouvsqh never has it been heard J 9:32 ,
b. of time to come which, if it has no end, is also known as eternity (so commonly in Gk. lit. Pla .+); eij" to;n aijw`na (since Isocr. 10, 62; Dit., Syll. 3 814, 50 and Or., index VIII; POxy. 41; also Diod. S. 1, 56, 1 eij" t. aij .= eij" a{panta t. crovnon ; 4, 1, 4; PGM 8, 33; 4, 1051 [ eij" aij .]; LXX ; En. 12, 6; 102, 3; Jos. , Ant. 7, 356 [ eij" aij .]) to eternity, eternally, in perpetuity : live J 6:51 , 58 ; B 6:3; remain J 8:35 ab; 12:34 ; 1 Pt 1:23 t.r ., 25 (Is 40:8 ); 1J 2:17 ; 2J 2 ; be with someone J 14:16 . W. neg .= never, not at all, never again (Ps 124:1 ; Ezk 27:36 al .) Mt 21:19 ; Mk 3:29 ; 11:14 ; 1 Cor 8:13 . e{w" aijw`no" ( LXX
) 1 Cl 10:4 (Gen 13:15 ); Hv 2, 3, 3; s 9, 24, 4. eij" to;n aij. tou` aijw`no" (Ps 44:18 ; 82:18 al .) Hb 1:8 (Ps 44:7 ). e{w" aijw`no" Lk 1:55 v.l .—The pl. is also used (Emped., fgm. 129, 6 aijw`ne" =generations; Theocr. 16, 43 makrou;" aijw`na" =long periods of time; Sext. Emp. , Phys. 1, 62 eij" aijw`na" diamevnei ; Sib. Or. 3, 767.— Bl-D. §141, 1), esp. in doxologies: eij" tou;" aijw`na" , (Ps 60:5 ; 76:8 ) Mt 6:13 v.l .; Lk 1:33 ( cf. Wsd 3:8 ); Hb 13:8 ; eij" pavnta" tou;" aij. (Tob 13:4 ; Da 3:52 b; En. 9, 4; Sib. Or. 3, 50) Jd 25
b. eujloghto;" eij" tou;" aijw`na" to all eternity ( cf. Ps 88:53 ) Ro 1:25 ; 9:5 ; 2 Cor 11:31 ; aujtw`/ hJ dovxa eij" tou;" aij. Ro 11:36 ; more fully eij" tou;" aij. tw`n aijwvnwn (Ps 83:5 ; PGM 4, 1038; 22b, 15) for evermore in doxologies 16:27 ; Gal 1:5 ; Phil 4:20 ; 1 Ti 1:17 ; 2 Ti 4:18 ; Hb 13:21 ; 1 Pt 4:11 ; 5:11 ; 1 Cl 20:12; 32:4; 38:4; 43:6; Rv 1:6 ; 5:13 ; 7:12 al. eij" pavsa" ta;" genea;" tou` aijw`no" tw`n aij. Eph 3:21 ( cf. Tob 1:4 ; 13:12 ; En. 103, 4; 104, 5). Of God oJ zw`n eij" tou;" aij. ( cf. Tob 13:2 ; Sir 18:1 ; Da 6:27 Theod. ) Rv 4:9 f ; 10:6 ; 15:7 .— kata; provqesin tw`n aijwvnwn according to the eternal purpose Eph 3:11 . All-inclusive ajpo; aijwvnwn kai; eij" t. aijw`na" from (past) eternity to (future) eternity B 18:2 ( cf. Ps 40:14 and Ps.- Aristot. , De Mundo 7 p. 401a, 16 ejx aijw`no" ajtevrmono" eij" e{teron aijw`na ; M. Ant. 9, 28, 1 ejx aijw`no" eij" aijw`na ; Sib. Or. , fgm. 1, 16 of God movno" eij" aijw`na k. ejx aijw`no" ).
( iva Pla ., Tim. 38 B ; Jer 39:40 ; Ezk 37:26 ; 2 Th 2:16 ; Hb 9:12 ; as v.l. Ac 13:48 ; 2 Pt 1:11 ; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla. ; inscr. , pap. , LXX ; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr. ; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 AD ] kuvrio" aij. ; al. in pap. ; Jos. , Ant. 7, 352).
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αἰώνιος 1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25 ; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9 ; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.- Pla. , Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion ; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato" ; Gen 21:33 ; Is 26:4 ; 40:28 ; Bar 4:8 al .; Philo , Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or. , fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26 ; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14 . qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 ( cf. 1 Macc 2:57 ). 3. without end ( Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij . everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. oi[khsi" ; Arrian , Peripl. 1, 4 ej" mnhvmhn aij. ; Jos. Bell. 4, 461 aij. cavri" =a gracious gift for all future time; Dit., Or. 383, 10 [I BC ] eij" crovnon aij .; ECEOwen, oi\ko" aij. : JTS 38, ’37, 248-50) of the next life skhnai; aij. Lk 16:9 ( cf. En. 39, 5). oijkiva , contrasted w. the oijkiva ejpivgeio" , of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1 . diaqhvkh (Gen 9:16 ; 17:7 ; Lev 24:8 ; 2 Km 23:5 al .) Hb 13:20 . eujaggevlion Rv 14:6 ; kravto" in a doxolog. formula (= eij" tou;" aijw`na" ) 1 Ti 6:16 . paravklhsi" 2 Th 2:16 . luvtrwsi" Hb 9:12 . klhronomiva (Esth 4:17 m) vs. 15; aij. ajpevcein tinav ( opp. pro;" w{ran ) keep someone forever Phlm 15 ( cf. Job 40:28 ). Very often of God’s judgment ( Diod. S. 4, 63, 4 dia; th;n ajsevbeian ejn a{/dou diatelei`n timwriva" aijwnivou tugcavnonta ; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40 ; Da 12:2 ; Ps 76:6 ; 4 Macc 9:9 ; 13:15 ) kovlasi" aij. ( Test. Reub. 5:5) Mt 25:46 ; 2 Cl 6:7; krivma aij. Hb 6:2 ; qavnato" B 20:1. o[leqron (4 Macc 10:15 ) 2 Th 1:9 . pu`r (4 Macc 12:12 .— Sib. Or. 8, 401 fw`" aij .) Mt 18:8 ; 25:41 ; Jd 7 ; Dg 10:7 ( IQS 2, 8). aJnavrthma Mk 3:29 ( v.l. krivsew" and aJmartiva" ). On the other hand of eternal life ( Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij. ; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na ; Da 12:2 ; 4 Macc 15:3 ; PsSol 3, 12; Philo , Fuga 78; Jos. , Bell. 1, 650; Sib. Or. 2, 336) in the Kingdom of God: zwh; aij. Mt 19:16 , 29 ; 25:46 ; Mk 10:17 , 30 ; Lk 10:25 ; 18:18 , 30 ; Ac 13:46 , 48 ; Ro 2:7 ; 5:21 al .; J 3:15 f , 36 ; 4:14 , 36 al .; 1J 1:2 ; 2:25 al. — D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also basileiva aij. 2 Pt 1:11 ( cf. Da 4:3 ; 7:27 ; Philo , Somn. 2, 285; Dit., Or. 569, 24 uJpe;r th`" aijwnivou kai; ajfqavrtou basileiva" uJmw`n ; Dssm. B 279 f , BS 363). Of the glory in the next life dovxa aij. 2 Ti 2:10 ( cf. Wsd 10:14 ; Jos. , Ant. 15,
376.— Sib. Or. 8, 410). aijwvnion bavro" dovxh" 2 Cor 4:17 ; swthriva aij. (Is 45:17 ; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9 ; short ending of Mk. Of heavenly glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses ta; mh; blepovmena aijwvnia 2 Cor 4:18 .— carav IPhld inscr .; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.
Der Alter: Did you check the Greek text or any accredited Greek lexicon? If you have the Greek text please post it and show how the translation I quoted is wrong. If you cannot do so please spare me these desperate puerile objections.
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It's not my job to support your points with evidence. Especially when you don't even explain what point you are trying to make with them.
Cop out! You claimed that my translation was wrong, the burden of proof is on you to prove that. You have not met that burden. This evasive response shows you cannot do that, just false accusations which you can’t back up.