eternal suffering

Hillsage

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When Jesus died on the cross, Jesus Himself died on the cross. You are making an unnecessary assumption. Why complicate things for no reason?
It doesn't complicate the truth, it reveals it. It shows what annihilation and orthodoxy aren't dealing with....and now you too. Disprove my verses supporting my view.

The evidence that Jesus travelled all over hell and back when he was dead is not firmly established in Scriptures. The proof texts for that belief can be understood in many ways, not just astral projection or whatever.
I don't believe the word hell was even used by me...only scripture....come on Tim, you know this.

1PE 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,...

You are making an assumption when you say "physical death". You are making another assumption when you say "nobody's spirit ever dies". The Bible doesn't actually say that. In fact, the Bible says that the soul who sins shall die.
It makes a pretty good case for 'assumption' of that. And, in fact, no where does it even assume a spirit can die. That too only comes from the imagination of those who do not understand our triune make up of spirit soul and body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

"Body Death"??? What the heck is "Body Death"? The Bible doesn't say "The wages of sin is body death, but the gift of God is eternal spirit life while you rot in the grave."
Of course the bible "says"...that's why I believe like I do. ;)

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

IOW, kind of like when Jesus' body was in the tomb and his departed spirit was out preaching 'the truth' at a 'spirit prison'.

LUK 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.


Your post is full of unwarranted assumptions, so I'm going to address each one.
If you accept the Bible as written, whoever believes in Jesus Christ will not perish but will have eternal life.
I'd say necessary assumptions....needed to break the three way tie of UR, annihilation, ECT. Like I said earlier, just prove 'your assumption' with even ONE of the better Bible translations than the ones accepted by you and written by ECT orthodoxy translators to prove their POV and conseal 'the truth'....which you "love". ;)

John 3:15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
John 10:28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish - to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand;
 
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ClementofA

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Der Alter: When the NT was written did they use koine Greek as it was spoken and written at the time or did they make up an entirely new language or change the meaning of some words? It appears to me that the NT writers used koine Greek and retained the meaning of all the words. For example “oikos” meant “house” before the NT was written and in the NT it means “house.” Strange that the only time the Hell, no! crowd changes the meaning of words is when it contradicts their false doctrine.

You're the one who claimed Origen changed the meaning of aionion from how Plato used it. Of course no proof was given to support that theory.

Regarding the differences between Classical/Plato's & NT Greek:
".......Changes in vocabulary are of course too numerous to list here."
https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jtreat/koine/classical.html

It seems Plato made up a new word, aionion, that didn't exist before. And gave it some strange idea that was never used in the Scriptures. And he changed the meaning of the word aion from those who were before him. And those who lived after him didn't always follow his notions of either word.

Plato was in the classical Greek period, not that of the written NT koine Greek some half a millenium later. Of course in that period of time words can & often do change meaning. Today we don't speak in KJV English & quite a number of the words have changed meanings. Also it appears that koine Greek was more geared to the layman, not the philosopher types, e.g. Plato:

"Differences Between Classical and Hellenistic Greek"
"Robertson states the basic differences succinctly. Koiné was more practical than academic, putting the stress on clarity rather than eloquence. Its grammar was simplified, exceptions were decreased and generalized, inflections were dropped or harmonized, and sentence-construction made easier. Koiné was the language of life and not of books"
https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jtreat/koine/classical.html

So it's questionable how relevant Plato's opinions re aion/ion are, or that of any of his followers like Philo, to the usage of such words in the NT.

Der Alter said: Did you write this in post #577? “How many writers from Moses to Thomas Aquinas do you suppose used the words aion & aionion?” That implies that Moses used the words “aion” and “aionios.”

Not implied. Next.

Der Alter says: If you intend to show that Plato’s use of aionios is wrong cite other writers contemporary with or prior to Plato. That later writers use Greek words in a figurative way does not change the inherent meaning.

I've referred to Scripture, Origen & other ancient sources to argue against aionion being eternal in Scripture, or at least in reference to punishment, etc. Also that Plato's use of the word as timeless is not found in the Scriptures. Evidently the inspired authors rejected that idea.

Later writers use aion & aionion in a figurative way?

Der Alter said: No, zero, none evidence for your claim. Jesus called Herod a “fox.” Lk 13;32 Was he actually a fox? Jesus called two of His disciples “sons of thunder” Mar 3:17. Were they actually sons of thunder? Jesus called Peter, “rock.” Was he actually a rock? That is called figurative language, for example saying someone "is as big as a house."

I thought we were discussing aion/ion, not foxes. You didn't give a single example of either word used figuratively.

No evidence for my claim? Jesus spoke of the "end of the aion". Did He really mean an eternal eon? Even amongst your own ECT biased sources is an admission aion means properly (literally), an age. And that usage prior to Plato was aion = "life".

Der Alter: Did you check the Greek text or any accredited Greek lexicon? If you have the Greek text please post it and show how the translation I quoted is wrong. If you cannot do so please spare me these desperate puerile objections.

It's not my job to support your points with evidence. Especially when you don't even explain what point you are trying to make with them.
 
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Der Alte

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Did you not say Origen changed the word aionion? From what, Plato's eternal to eonion that ends? Where was your evidence of that, from my posts?
Your own sources also admit to uses of aionion, in Scripture, not meaning eternal
.
Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.
Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,
166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers
2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zoe ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.
αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).
Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.
αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.
Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.
166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.
CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown
Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios
Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.
0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting


LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).

1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.
BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY
αιωνιος

Strong's - Greek 165
NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end
aion - αιων - age, world

A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
aionion, aioniosαιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal

B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον
- Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.
Link: What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
 
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Der Alte

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Der Alter: When the NT was written did they use koine Greek as it was spoken and written at the time or did they make up an entirely new language or change the meaning of some words? It appears to me that the NT writers used koine Greek and retained the meaning of all the words. For example “oikos” meant “house” before the NT was written and in the NT it means “house.” Strange that the only time the Hell, no! crowd changes the meaning of words is when it contradicts their false doctrine.
=====
You're the one who claimed Origen changed the meaning of aionion from how Plato used it. Of course no proof was given to support that theory.
My proof was Plato, Philo and Aristotle. You touted Origen as if he was the be all end all authority on the word aionios, and you claimed that Origen did not use aionios to mean eternal or something like that.
Regarding the differences between Classical/Plato's & NT Greek:
".......Changes in vocabulary are of course too numerous to list here."
https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jtreat/koine/classical.html
This proves nothing about aion and ainios
It seems Plato made up a new word, aionion, that didn't exist before. And gave it some strange idea that was never used in the Scriptures. And he changed the meaning of the word aion from those who were before him. And those who lived after him didn't always follow his notions of either word.
Your source does not mention Plato at all. Unsupported opinions from people with no qualifications in Greek are irrelevant.
Plato was in the classical Greek period, not that of the written NT koine Greek some half a millenium later. Of course in that period of time words can & often do change meaning. Today we don't speak in KJV English & quite a number of the words have changed meanings. Also it appears that koine Greek was more geared to the layman, not the philosopher types, e.g. Plato:
Once again unsupported opinions are irrelevant.
"Differences Between Classical and Hellenistic Greek"
"Robertson states the basic differences succinctly. Koiné was more practical than academic, putting the stress on clarity rather than eloquence. Its grammar was simplified, exceptions were decreased and generalized, inflections were dropped or harmonized, and sentence-construction made easier. Koiné was the language of life and not of books"
https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jtreat/koine/classical.html
Robertson is an excellent source. He taught graduate level Greek for more than 47 years. What did Robertson say about aion/aionios?
A.T. Robertson Word Pictures in the NT
Matthew 25:46 The word aiōnios (from aiōn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word.
So it's questionable how relevant Plato's opinions re aion/ion are, or that of any of his followers like Philo, to the usage of such words in the NT.
Robertson says nothing which supports this unsupported opinion, thus it is irrelevant.
Der Alter said: Did you write this in post #577? “How many writers from Moses to Thomas Aquinas do you suppose used the words aion & aionion?” That implies that Moses used the words “aion” and “aionios.”
====
Not implied. Next.
You do not know Greek and you seem to have a problem with English as well.
Der Alter says: If you intend to show that Plato’s use of aionios is wrong cite other writers contemporary with or prior to Plato. That later writers use Greek words in a figurative way does not change the inherent meaning.
===
I've referred to Scripture, Origen & other ancient sources to argue against aionion being eternal in Scripture, or at least in reference to punishment, etc. Also that Plato's use of the word as timeless is not found in the Scriptures. Evidently the inspired authors rejected that idea.
Later writers use aion & aionion in a figurative way?
Circular argument! More irrelevant unsupported opinion.
Der Alter said: No, zero, none evidence for your claim. Jesus called Herod a “fox.” Lk 13;32 Was he actually a fox? Jesus called two of His disciples “sons of thunder” Mar 3:17. Were they actually sons of thunder? Jesus called Peter, “rock.” Was he actually a rock? That is called figurative language, for example saying someone "is as big as a house."
====

I thought we were discussing aion/ion, not foxes. You didn't give a single example of either word used figuratively.
The first recorded use of aionios was eternal, unending, everlasting any other use would be figurative as in the examples I gave.
No evidence for my claim? Jesus spoke of the "end of the aion". Did He really mean an eternal eon? Even amongst your own ECT biased sources is an admission aion means properly (literally), an age. And that usage prior to Plato was aion = "life".
G165 αἰών aiōn
Thayer Definition:
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Bauer, Arndt Gingrich, Danker Greek lexicon of the NT
αἰών ( Hom. +; Herm. Wr. ; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. , Sib. Or. ) time, age.
1. very long time, eternity — a. of time gone by, the past, earliest times, then eternity oiJ a{gioi ajpÆ aijw`no" profh`tai the holy prophets fr. ages long past ( cf. Hes ., Theog. 609; Peri; u{you" 34, 4 tou;" ajpÆ aij. rJhvtora" ; Cass. Dio 63, 20 tw`n ajpo; tou` aij. JRwmaivwn ; Inschr. v. Magn. 180, 4; Dit., Syll. 3 index; Gen 6:4 ; Tob 4:12 ; Sir 14:17 ; 51:8 ; En. 14, 1; 99, 14; Jos. , Bell. 1, 12) Lk 1:70 ; Ac 3:21 ; to make known from of old Ac 15:18 ; pro; panto;" t. aij. before time began Jd 25 a (for the combination with pa`" cf. Sallust. c. 20 p. 36, 5 to;n pavnta aijw`na =through all eternity); pl. pro; tw`n aij. Somn. 1, 19; Jos. , Bell. 5, 442; Sir 1:4 ; Sib. Or. , fgm. 1, 16 of God movno" eij" aijw`na k. ejx aijw`no" ).
W. neg. foll. ejk tou` aijw`no" oujk hjkouvsqh never has it been heard J 9:32 ,
b. of time to come which, if it has no end, is also known as eternity (so commonly in Gk. lit. Pla .+); eij" to;n aijw`na (since Isocr. 10, 62; Dit., Syll. 3 814, 50 and Or., index VIII; POxy. 41; also Diod. S. 1, 56, 1 eij" t. aij .= eij" a{panta t. crovnon ; 4, 1, 4; PGM 8, 33; 4, 1051 [ eij" aij .]; LXX ; En. 12, 6; 102, 3; Jos. , Ant. 7, 356 [ eij" aij .]) to eternity, eternally, in perpetuity : live J 6:51 , 58 ; B 6:3; remain J 8:35 ab; 12:34 ; 1 Pt 1:23 t.r ., 25 (Is 40:8 ); 1J 2:17 ; 2J 2 ; be with someone J 14:16 . W. neg .= never, not at all, never again (Ps 124:1 ; Ezk 27:36 al .) Mt 21:19 ; Mk 3:29 ; 11:14 ; 1 Cor 8:13 . e{w" aijw`no" ( LXX
) 1 Cl 10:4 (Gen 13:15 ); Hv 2, 3, 3; s 9, 24, 4. eij" to;n aij. tou` aijw`no" (Ps 44:18 ; 82:18 al .) Hb 1:8 (Ps 44:7 ). e{w" aijw`no" Lk 1:55 v.l .—The pl. is also used (Emped., fgm. 129, 6 aijw`ne" =generations; Theocr. 16, 43 makrou;" aijw`na" =long periods of time; Sext. Emp. , Phys. 1, 62 eij" aijw`na" diamevnei ; Sib. Or. 3, 767.— Bl-D. §141, 1), esp. in doxologies: eij" tou;" aijw`na" , (Ps 60:5 ; 76:8 ) Mt 6:13 v.l .; Lk 1:33 ( cf. Wsd 3:8 ); Hb 13:8 ; eij" pavnta" tou;" aij. (Tob 13:4 ; Da 3:52 b; En. 9, 4; Sib. Or. 3, 50) Jd 25
b. eujloghto;" eij" tou;" aijw`na" to all eternity ( cf. Ps 88:53 ) Ro 1:25 ; 9:5 ; 2 Cor 11:31 ; aujtw`/ hJ dovxa eij" tou;" aij. Ro 11:36 ; more fully eij" tou;" aij. tw`n aijwvnwn (Ps 83:5 ; PGM 4, 1038; 22b, 15) for evermore in doxologies 16:27 ; Gal 1:5 ; Phil 4:20 ; 1 Ti 1:17 ; 2 Ti 4:18 ; Hb 13:21 ; 1 Pt 4:11 ; 5:11 ; 1 Cl 20:12; 32:4; 38:4; 43:6; Rv 1:6 ; 5:13 ; 7:12 al. eij" pavsa" ta;" genea;" tou` aijw`no" tw`n aij. Eph 3:21 ( cf. Tob 1:4 ; 13:12 ; En. 103, 4; 104, 5). Of God oJ zw`n eij" tou;" aij. ( cf. Tob 13:2 ; Sir 18:1 ; Da 6:27 Theod. ) Rv 4:9 f ; 10:6 ; 15:7 .— kata; provqesin tw`n aijwvnwn according to the eternal purpose Eph 3:11 . All-inclusive ajpo; aijwvnwn kai; eij" t. aijw`na" from (past) eternity to (future) eternity B 18:2 ( cf. Ps 40:14 and Ps.- Aristot. , De Mundo 7 p. 401a, 16 ejx aijw`no" ajtevrmono" eij" e{teron aijw`na ; M. Ant. 9, 28, 1 ejx aijw`no" eij" aijw`na ; Sib. Or. , fgm. 1, 16 of God movno" eij" aijw`na k. ejx aijw`no" ).
( iva Pla ., Tim. 38 B ; Jer 39:40 ; Ezk 37:26 ; 2 Th 2:16 ; Hb 9:12 ; as v.l. Ac 13:48 ; 2 Pt 1:11 ; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla. ; inscr. , pap. , LXX ; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr. ; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 AD ] kuvrio" aij. ; al. in pap. ; Jos. , Ant. 7, 352).

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αἰώνιος 1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25 ; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9 ; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.- Pla. , Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion ; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato" ; Gen 21:33 ; Is 26:4 ; 40:28 ; Bar 4:8 al .; Philo , Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or. , fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26 ; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14 . qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 ( cf. 1 Macc 2:57 ). 3. without end ( Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij . everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. oi[khsi" ; Arrian , Peripl. 1, 4 ej" mnhvmhn aij. ; Jos. Bell. 4, 461 aij. cavri" =a gracious gift for all future time; Dit., Or. 383, 10 [I BC ] eij" crovnon aij .; ECEOwen, oi\ko" aij. : JTS 38, ’37, 248-50) of the next life skhnai; aij. Lk 16:9 ( cf. En. 39, 5). oijkiva , contrasted w. the oijkiva ejpivgeio" , of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1 . diaqhvkh (Gen 9:16 ; 17:7 ; Lev 24:8 ; 2 Km 23:5 al .) Hb 13:20 . eujaggevlion Rv 14:6 ; kravto" in a doxolog. formula (= eij" tou;" aijw`na" ) 1 Ti 6:16 . paravklhsi" 2 Th 2:16 . luvtrwsi" Hb 9:12 . klhronomiva (Esth 4:17 m) vs. 15; aij. ajpevcein tinav ( opp. pro;" w{ran ) keep someone forever Phlm 15 ( cf. Job 40:28 ). Very often of God’s judgment ( Diod. S. 4, 63, 4 dia; th;n ajsevbeian ejn a{/dou diatelei`n timwriva" aijwnivou tugcavnonta ; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40 ; Da 12:2 ; Ps 76:6 ; 4 Macc 9:9 ; 13:15 ) kovlasi" aij. ( Test. Reub. 5:5) Mt 25:46 ; 2 Cl 6:7; krivma aij. Hb 6:2 ; qavnato" B 20:1. o[leqron (4 Macc 10:15 ) 2 Th 1:9 . pu`r (4 Macc 12:12 .— Sib. Or. 8, 401 fw`" aij .) Mt 18:8 ; 25:41 ; Jd 7 ; Dg 10:7 ( IQS 2, 8). aJnavrthma Mk 3:29 ( v.l. krivsew" and aJmartiva" ). On the other hand of eternal life ( Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij. ; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na ; Da 12:2 ; 4 Macc 15:3 ; PsSol 3, 12; Philo , Fuga 78; Jos. , Bell. 1, 650; Sib. Or. 2, 336) in the Kingdom of God: zwh; aij. Mt 19:16 , 29 ; 25:46 ; Mk 10:17 , 30 ; Lk 10:25 ; 18:18 , 30 ; Ac 13:46 , 48 ; Ro 2:7 ; 5:21 al .; J 3:15 f , 36 ; 4:14 , 36 al .; 1J 1:2 ; 2:25 al. — D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also basileiva aij. 2 Pt 1:11 ( cf. Da 4:3 ; 7:27 ; Philo , Somn. 2, 285; Dit., Or. 569, 24 uJpe;r th`" aijwnivou kai; ajfqavrtou basileiva" uJmw`n ; Dssm. B 279 f , BS 363). Of the glory in the next life dovxa aij. 2 Ti 2:10 ( cf. Wsd 10:14 ; Jos. , Ant. 15,
376.— Sib. Or. 8, 410). aijwvnion bavro" dovxh" 2 Cor 4:17 ; swthriva aij. (Is 45:17 ; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9 ; short ending of Mk. Of heavenly glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses ta; mh; blepovmena aijwvnia 2 Cor 4:18 .— carav IPhld inscr .; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.
Der Alter: Did you check the Greek text or any accredited Greek lexicon? If you have the Greek text please post it and show how the translation I quoted is wrong. If you cannot do so please spare me these desperate puerile objections.
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It's not my job to support your points with evidence. Especially when you don't even explain what point you are trying to make with them.
Cop out! You claimed that my translation was wrong, the burden of proof is on you to prove that. You have not met that burden. This evasive response shows you cannot do that, just false accusations which you can’t back up.
 
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ClementofA

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My proof was Plato, Philo and Aristotle.

Your "proof" that Origen changed the meaning of aionion from how Plato used it is that Plato, Philo and Aristotle used it sometimes to mean "eternal" and Origen didn't? Is that the jist of it? But didn't you just recently admit Aristotle never used the word?

How do you know that it wasn't another Christian universalist before Origen who changed it? Or how do you know that it was changed at all. Was it changed back from Origen's view in the Dark Ages & Medieval Ages of crusades, inquisitions, people & book burnings? How many "heretic" universalists & their writings were destroyed in 1000 years of pitch black darkness.

How do you know there weren't two viewpoints re aionion as used in the Scriptures from the earliest times, the positions of Origen & Philo? Is it possible there were Christians since the earliest times who held to Origen's view? It certainly could be if Paul was a universalist. The idea may gain a bit more credibility if there were Christian universalists earlier than Origen, even as early as around 80 AD. Such as those spoken of in the Sybilline Oracles.

 
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Evidently the meaning of aionion did not change see e.g.
Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. [εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας] Amen.
Just as the meaning of cool, gay and square did not change although the words were used in a different way.

[snip]

The evidence proves it amigo. This is the meaning from 423-347 BC, “in eternity [aioni] nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists.”

You read Greek? The word aionion does not exist in either of those two passages!

The ancient Greek pagan philosophers idea of aion or aionion as timelessness does not exist in the Scriptures! God & His Holy Spirit inspired writers rejected it!
 
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ClementofA

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Der Alter quoted:
If Plato and Aristotle and Philo knew Greek, what these others say is false. That this is the proper sense of aionios in Scripture, is as certain as it is evident. In 2 Corinthians 4: 18, we have ta gar blepomena proskaira, ta de me blepomena aionia. That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

1. Aristotle didn't use aionios, so you can forget about him!

2. I already posted re 2 Cor.4:18 & it was ignored!

3. I'll add this comment which is not from a universalist site but from one of your own ECT sources:

"... the OT idea of time, which predominantly conditions the NT, does not regard eternity as the opposite of temporality." !
 
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Der Alte

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DerAlte said:
Evidently the meaning of aion* did not change see e.g.
Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. [εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας] Amen.
*I inadvertently wrote "aionion" for "aion"
The evidence proves it amigo. This is the meaning from 423-347 BC, “in eternity [aioni] nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists.”
You read Greek? The word aionion does not exist in either of those two passages!
I do read Greek. The quote from Aristotle, established the meaning of "aion" “in eternity [aioni] nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists.” This describes eternity not an age of any duration.
The ancient Greek pagan philosophers idea of aion or aionion as timelessness does not exist in the Scriptures! God & His Holy Spirit inspired writers rejected it!
Thank you for this unsupported opinion! The ancient Greeks established the meaning of aion/eternity and aionios/eternal long before the NT. That a word is sometimes used in a way different than the historical meaning does not change the meaning. My post #14 in another thread. A thorough exposition of the words aion/aionios from 9 real language sources not random blogs online.
The Bible is filled with figures of speech. See Bullinger's Figures of Speech in the Bible link
 
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ClementofA

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Thank you for this unsupported opinion!

How would you like it to be supported? By the fact i've been waiting days for you to provide just one instance of aion or aionios in Scripture used as timelessness as Plato & Aristotle allegedly used it? And you've come up a total blank. Proof enough for you?

How am i supposed to support such a negative? Do you actually expect me to go through hundreds of occurrences of the words in Scripture & explain one by one how each does not mean timelessness? Seriously?

Or would you prefer i cite Origen & other ancient sources repeatedly speaking of things like an end of all eons, after eonian life, etc?

"...in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond
eternal life."
 
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Der Alte

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How would you like it to be supported? By the fact i've been waiting days for you to provide just one instance of aion or aionios in Scripture used as timelessness as Plato & Aristotle allegedly used it? And you've come up a total blank. Proof enough for you?
I have provided evidence in multiple posts see e.g. my post #603 and #604 above
How am i supposed to support such a negative? Do you actually expect me to go through hundreds of occurrences of the words in Scripture & explain one by one how each does not mean timelessness? Seriously?
I haven't asked you prove a negative, I asked you to support your statements e.g. "God & His Holy Spirit inspired writers rejected it[aion or aionion as timelessness]!"
Or would you prefer i cite Origen & other ancient sources repeatedly speaking of things like an end of all eons, after eonian life, etc?
And I have already quoted Origen which clearly shows him using aion/aionios to mean eternal, unending etc.
Origen [a.d. 185-230-254.] De Principiis Book 1, Chap. 1
5. After these points, also, the apostolic teaching is that the soul, having a substance and life of its own, shall, after its departure from the world, be rewarded according to its deserts, being destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its actions shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishments, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this: and also, that there is to be a time of resurrection from the dead, when this body, which now “is sown in corruption, shall rise in incorruption,” and that which “is sown in dishonour will rise in glory.” (1Co_15:42-43)

De Principiis. Book III. Chap. I.
For God deals with souls not merely with a view to the short space of our present life, included within sixty years or more, but with reference to a perpetual and never-ending period, exercising His providential care over souls that are immortal, even as He Himself is eternal and immortal.

De Principiis. Book II. Chap X
3…by God’s command restores out of the earthly and animal body a spiritual one, capable of inhabiting the heavens; while to each one of those who may be of inferior merit, or of more abject condition, or even the lowest in the scale, and altogether thrust aside, there is yet given, in proportion to the dignity of his life and soul, a glory and dignity of body, - nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire.

Origen Against Celsus. Book VI. Chap. XXVI.
But the remarks which might be made on this topic are neither to be made to all, nor to be uttered on the present occasion; for it is not unattended with danger to commit to writing the explanation of such subjects, seeing the multitude need no further instruction than that which relates to the punishment of sinners; while to ascend beyond this is not expedient, for the sake of those who are with difficulty restrained, even by fear of eternal punishment, from plunging into any degree of wickedness, and into the flood of evils which result from sin.

Origen Against Celsus. Book VIII. Chap LI
And Celsus, in like manner, after having embraced the doctrine, “that the righteous shall be blessed, and the wicked shall suffer eternal punishments,” should have followed out his subject; and, after having advanced what seemed to him the chief argument, he should have proceeded to prove and enforce by further reasons the truth that the unjust shall surely suffer eternal punishment, and those who lead a good life shall be blessed.

Prologue of Rufinus
And, verily, in the presence of God the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, I adjure and beseech every one, who may either transcribe or read these books, by his belief in the kingdom to come, by the mystery of the resurrection from the dead, and by that everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels, that, as he would not possess for an eternal inheritance that place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, and where their fire is not quenched and their worm dieth not, he add nothing to Scripture, and take nothing away from it, and make no insertion or alteration, but that he compare his transcript with the copies from which he made it, and make the emendations and distinctions according to the letter, and not have his manuscript incorrect or indistinct, lest the difficulty of ascertaining the sense, from the indistinctness of the copy, should cause greater difficulties to the readers.
De Principiis. Book II. Chap. X..
1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church’s teaching - viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners - let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be.
Link to writings of Origen.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0412.htm
And if you think about insisting that I post the original Greek please go back and quote the original Greek where you quoted Origen. Unlike your quotes I cite my sources correctly, from the primary sources, not 2nd or 3rd hand from a website.
"...in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond
eternal life."
Is this supposed to be meaningful? I have already proved to you that another quote you posted supposedly saying "more than eternal" was incorrectly translated.
 
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ClementofA

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And I have already quoted Origen which clearly shows him using aion/aionios to mean eternal, unending etc.

Where did you ever in your life post a quote of Origen using the words "aion" or "aionion" once, let alone that it was used by him in such a sense as you claim.

OTOH i gave you this translation of Origen where the word "eternal" is aionios:

"...in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal[=aionios] life. And after eternal[=aionios] life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal[=aionios] life."

Also your claim here re Origen's use of aion/ios seems strange in light of your previous remark that Origen changed the meaning of the words from that of Plato. Are you contradicting yourself?
 
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ClementofA

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Is this supposed to be meaningful? I have already proved to you that another quote you posted supposedly saying "more than eternal" was incorrectly translated.

If you read Greek, & i have seen no evidence of it, quite the contrary, you are an amateur, so in no position to make your own translation and say it is superior to that of scholars.
 
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ClementofA

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And I have already quoted Origen which clearly shows him using aion/aionios to mean eternal, unending etc.

Origen didn't write in English, so how can your English words have been quoting him?

The words of a scholar who has specialized in Origen [& didn't just read him in English] are worth noting here:

"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822)."

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/...of-apokatastasis-the-reviews-start-coming-in/
http://tsj.sagepub.com/content/76/4/827.extract


Yet isn't that just like what you have done with your English quotes?



 
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ClementofA

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I have provided evidence in multiple posts see e.g. my post #603 and #604 above

I haven't asked you prove a negative, I asked you to support your statements e.g. "God & His Holy Spirit inspired writers rejected it[aion or aionion as timelessness]!"

You've spammed the material in those posts many times. Show me one verse referred to there or anywhere else that uses aion and aionion as timelessness.

You use the word "rejected it", which is equivalent to "never used it". That's a negative. So again:

How am i supposed to support such a negative? Do you actually expect me to go through hundreds of occurrences of the words in Scripture & explain one by one how each does not mean timelessness? Seriously?

How would you like it to be supported? By the fact i've been waiting days for you to provide just one instance of aion or aionios in Scripture used as timelessness as Plato & Aristotle allegedly used it? And you've come up a total blank. Proof enough for you?

C'mon. Once instance. One Scripture. No more evasive cut & paste spamming.
 
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Der Alte

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You've spammed the material in those posts many times. Show me one verse referred to there or anywhere else that uses aion and aionion as timelessness.
I have done that more than once but you ignored it.
JPS Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, and this is My memorial unto all generations. Exo 3:15 ויאמר עוד אלהים אל־משׁה כה־תאמר אל־בני ישׂראל יהוה אלהי אבתיכם אלהי אברהם אלהי יצחק ואלהי יעקב שׁלחני אליכם זה־שׁמי לעלם וזה זכרי לדר דר׃ *לעלם לדר דר=l'olam l'dor dor
JPS Exodus 3:15 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πάλιν πρὸς Μωυσῆν Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ Κύριος ὁ θεὸς τῶν πατέρων ὑμῶν, θεὸς Αβρααμ καὶ θεὸς Ισαακ καὶ θεὸς Ιακωβ, ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς· τοῦτό μού ἐστιν ὄνομα αἰώνιον καὶ μνημόσυνον γενεῶν γενεαῖς.
JPS Exo 15:18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.
Exo 15:18 κύριος βασιλεύων τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ ἐπ᾿ αἰῶνα καὶ ἔτι.
Exo 15:18 יהוה ימלך לעלם ועד׃ *לעלם ועד=l'olam w'ad
JPS Isaiah 45:17 O Israel, that art saved by the LORD with an everlasting salvation; ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Isa 45:17 Ισραηλ σῴζεται ὑπὸ κυρίου σωτηρίαν αἰώνιον· οὐκ αἰσχυνθήσονται οὐδὲ μὴ ἐντραπῶσιν ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος.
Isa 45:17 ישׂראל נושׁע ביהוה תשׁועת עולמים לא־תבשׁו ולא־תכלמו עד־עולמי עד׃ עולמים
עד־עולמי עד=ad olamim ad

You use the word "rejected it", which is equivalent to "never used it". That's a negative. So again: How am I supposed to support such a negative? Do you actually expect me to go through hundreds of occurrences of the words in Scripture & explain one by one how each does not mean timelessness? Seriously?
Go back and read my post you are supposed to be proving something I said was wrong. A few examples would suffice. And FYI your opinion and the opinions at tentmaker do not constitute credible evidence
How would you like it to be supported? By the fact i've been waiting days for you to provide just one instance of aion or aionios in Scripture used as timelessness as Plato & Aristotle allegedly used it? And you've come up a total blank. Proof enough for you?
C'mon. Once instance. One Scripture. No more evasive cut & paste spamming
I have done it more than once, you ignored it. So I repeated it in this post.
 
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ClementofA

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I have done that more than once but you ignored it.

Spamming a huge cut & paste does not say "here's a verse with Plato's timelessness in it for the word aionios" & then explaining why. You still haven't done that.
 
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Der Alte

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Spamming a huge cut & paste does not say "here's a verse with Plato's timelessness in it for the word aionios" & then explaining why. You still haven't done that.
I'm sorry your not being knowledgeable in Greek and only quoting biased universal sources I didn't realize it was necessary for me to explain something to you again that I have already explained before, more than once, and which, OBTW, had you actually read my post, the editor of the article explained quite well.
.....Here is my explanation for at least the 3rd or 4th time. The first occurrence of the Greek word aionios appears in the writings of Plato who lived 423 –347 BC. Many scholars believe that Plato coined aionios from aion and as you have stated he used aionios for timeless or eternal.
 
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ClementofA

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I'm sorry your not being knowledgeable in Greek and only quoting biased universal sources I didn't realize it was necessary for me to explain something to you again that I have already explained before, more than once, and which, OBTW, had you actually read my post, the editor of the article explained quite well.
.....Here is my explanation for at least the 3rd or 4th time. The first occurrence of the Greek word aionios appears in the writings of Plato who lived 423 –347 BC. Many scholars believe that Plato coined aionios from aion and as you have stated he used aionios for timeless or eternal.

You posted some verses with "for ever" in them.

You have provided no evidence or explanation as to why "for ever" should be
understood as equivalent to Plato's "timelessness". Look these words up in the
dictionary if you must to get a grasp of the topic.
 
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Der Alte

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Spamming a huge cut & paste does not say "here's a verse with Plato's timelessness in it for the word aionios" & then explaining why. You still haven't done that.


I'm sorry your not being knowledgeable in Greek and only quoting biased universal sources I didn't realize it was necessary for me to explain something to you again that I have already explained before, more than once, and which, OBTW, had you actually read my post, the editor of the article explained quite well.
.....Here is my explanation for at least the 3rd or 4th time. The first occurrence of the Greek word aionios appears in the writings of Plato who lived 423 –347 BC. Many scholars believe that Plato coined aionios from aion and as you have stated he used aionios for timeless or eternal.
 
Upvote 0
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