Law versus grace. The contradiction of scriptures unraveled

[Alithis]

No grip of the law on us.

We are under the law.

You believe both?

I understand your struggle to shrug off the law.

You must read rom 7:4,6 again.

nope.. you ,as do most, need to read the entire letter without chapter and verse deviding it up.

 

[Alithis]

I am sure you are familiar with the verse where we are told:

"According to your faith be it unto you."

When Jesus died and rose again, our old nature died with Him. And as Jesus was resurrected to newness of life, so were we. In Romans 6 we are told that we must know these to be true. BUT, that truth, as wonderful as it is,bit not enough. God asks one thing of us. He asks us to by faith believe it is so, right now, today. He asks that we reckon it done.

This word 'reckon' to most of us means "Well, I suppose so"... i.e well, I reckon I am new. That is not faith. If we are to avail ourselves of the power found in our walking in our new nature, we must, despite our logical brains telling us that it is impossible, step out in faith and reckon it done. NOW faith.

That word is actually a banking term, meaning the balancing of the books, as something is added into our assets. Knowledge is not enough. Hoping will not work either. Desperation is indeed beneficial in preparation, but still will not move God's hand to bring us to where we need to be.... walking in our new nature, having put off our old nature, and laying no more claim to it.

No more are we "just sinners saved by grace". We are new natured children of the most High God, and sin no longer has power over us. And when Satan comes tempting, and he will, we resist him not with white knuckles as we repeat again and again "I will not give in, I will not give in."

We now resist him steadfast in the faith as to who we are and who we are not. We are NOT in the flesh any longer, and owe it a big fat nothing. We ARE new creatures, victors, overcomers of the world, the flesh and the devil by faith, because we have finally seen that the missing step is that we couple the blood of the lamb with the word of OUR testimony.

Do you remember what Jesus said about faith? He said "When you pray, believe that you receive it and you shall have it". When we step out of the boat and begin to walk on the water to Jesus by faith, it looks impossible. We know our frailties better than any. But God has told us that not only have we been forgiven, but that He has actually delivered us from the power of darkness. Do we see it in us as we claim it as ours? Nope. Truth is we think it presumptuous to say such a thing. We reason that we are not at the point in our spiritual growth to be able to say such bold words, right?

Foolish us. Do we not see that we will NEVER be ready as long as we walk in the flesh. In fact, that is the very reason God is so good as to give us new natures.... so that He can now make us overcomers. We do not need self control in order to ask for this miracle. We need this miracle to truly possess self control!

Brother, I struggled for 38 years, not to get free of the law, but to get to the point I saw with perfect clarity that in me dwelt NO good thing. When I finally came to the point I had NO strength, it was at that exact moment that my faith was able to line up with His word. But until a man truly hates his rebellious, sell coddling, disobedient, prideful self nature, faith will be impossible. We will try to appropriate the freedom He offers by head knowledge, but that simply will not work. The only one who can truly reckon himself dead to sin is the one who hates the sin he continually commits, longs to be free of its grip, and yet realizes that he has no answers, no strength to die to self. THAT is a man ready to only believe.

Blessings,

Gids

if i need a new thread ..tell me bro.
our old man dies in water baptism.
but many get baptised being told it is only symbolic..so when they get baptised they do so without any faith that God will do something. so nothing changes..because.....according to your faith. ...
so if people got baptised believing Nothing will happen!.then nothing happened.they got wet.
but if you do so believing that God will cause you to spiritually Die ..and then raise you up again a new creation ..freed from egypt through death..as is the gospel.Then that is what he does. then we walk in that new life until we obtain the promise..eternal life.
It is disobedience through unbelief that causes a person to not enter into the promise.
How sorrowful to be saved from egypt by the blood of the lamb..washed from sin through death in baptism. only to lose it all by disobedience through unbelief...

let us not neglect so great a salvation..but endure to the end and be saved...

salvation- it is not a moment to be remembered ,but an eternal life to be lived .

 

[Gideons300]

if i need a new thread ..tell me bro.
our old man dies in water baptism.
but many get baptised being told it is only symbolic..so when they get baptised they do so without any faith that God will do something. so nothing changes..because.....according to your faith. ...
so if people got baptised believing Nothing will happen!.then nothing happened.they got wet.
but if you do so believing that God will cause you to spiritually Die ..and then raise you up again a new creation ..freed from egypt through death..as is the gospel.Then that is what he does. then we walk in that new life until we obtain the promise..eternal life.
It is disobedience through unbelief that causes a person to not enter into the promise.
How sorrowful to be saved from egypt by the blood of the lamb..washed from sin through death in baptism. only to lose it all by disobedience through unbelief...

let us not neglect so great a salvation..but endure to the end and be saved...

salvation- it is not a moment to be remembered ,but an eternal life to be lived .

The only clarification I would make is that we do not die when we are water baptized. We died when Christ died. Our water baptism is our outer show of faith that we are in agreement with God. Our whole concept of being "born again" has been reduced to a marketing catch phrase. We do not understand the truth of those words, that we are truly offered new natures. Many look into a mirror and forget that they were made new, and end up the same old natured man. But praise God, true sheep look into a mirror and continue to look in that mirror where they see not them, but Christ in them. You are absolutely correct. It is not a one time "I am now saved because I said a prayer and was baptized" moment. We have been born anew into a lifetime of being saved. That is why enduring to the end is called for. And for those who are truly the elect, of course we will ebb dire to the end. Who would want to go back to lifelessness where we ruled the roost? Not me.

I believe that ideally, if the gospel is preached correctly and in power, a man can be brought to see himself a wretch with no hope, hear of the offer of not only being forgiven but actually being given a new nature, a new life where Christ rules, get saved , be baptized right then and walk in victory immediately. But as Leonard Ravenhill once said, modern Christianity pulls them out of the womb before they see that they are worthy of death, and do them a great disservice. Baptism to them is but a ritual, not a place of agreement with God, and being that it is not coupled with faith that we died with Christ, it profits them nothing.

Thanks Michael. I pray one day we are able to meet. And if not now, then on the other side.

Blessings,

Gids

 

[Si_monfaith]

I am sure you are familiar with the verse where we are told:

"According to your faith be it unto you."

When Jesus died and rose again, our old nature died with Him. And as Jesus was resurrected to newness of life, so were we. In Romans 6 we are told that we must know these to be true. BUT, that truth, as wonderful as it is,bit not enough. God asks one thing of us. He asks us to by faith believe it is so, right now, today. He asks that we reckon it done.

This word 'reckon' to most of us means "Well, I suppose so"... i.e well, I reckon I am new. That is not faith. If we are to avail ourselves of the power found in our walking in our new nature, we must, despite our logical brains telling us that it is impossible, step out in faith and reckon it done. NOW faith.

That word is actually a banking term, meaning the balancing of the books, as something is added into our assets. Knowledge is not enough. Hoping will not work either. Desperation is indeed beneficial in preparation, but still will not move God's hand to bring us to where we need to be.... walking in our new nature, having put off our old nature, and laying no more claim to it.

No more are we "just sinners saved by grace". We are new natured children of the most High God, and sin no longer has power over us. And when Satan comes tempting, and he will, we resist him not with white knuckles as we repeat again and again "I will not give in, I will not give in."

We now resist him steadfast in the faith as to who we are and who we are not. We are NOT in the flesh any longer, and owe it a big fat nothing. We ARE new creatures, victors, overcomers of the world, the flesh and the devil by faith, because we have finally seen that the missing step is that we couple the blood of the lamb with the word of OUR testimony.

Do you remember what Jesus said about faith? He said "When you pray, believe that you receive it and you shall have it". When we step out of the boat and begin to walk on the water to Jesus by faith, it looks impossible. We know our frailties better than any. But God has told us that not only have we been forgiven, but that He has actually delivered us from the power of darkness. Do we see it in us as we claim it as ours? Nope. Truth is we think it presumptuous to say such a thing. We reason that we are not at the point in our spiritual growth to be able to say such bold words, right?

Foolish us. Do we not see that we will NEVER be ready as long as we walk in the flesh. In fact, that is the very reason God is so good as to give us new natures.... so that He can now make us overcomers. We do not need self control in order to ask for this miracle. We need this miracle to truly possess self control!

Brother, I struggled for 38 years, not to get free of the law, but to get to the point I saw with perfect clarity that in me dwelt NO good thing. When I finally came to the point I had NO strength, it was at that exact moment that my faith was able to line up with His word. But until a man truly hates his rebellious, sell coddling, disobedient, prideful self nature, faith will be impossible. We will try to appropriate the freedom He offers by head knowledge, but that simply will not work. The only one who can truly reckon himself dead to sin is the one who hates the sin he continually commits, longs to be free of its grip, and yet realizes that he has no answers, no strength to die to self. THAT is a man ready to only believe.

Blessings,

Gids

First one needs to reckon himself dead to moral law through Christ's death. Or else he is still under curses (gala3:10, 13).

 

[Si_monfaith]

nope.. you ,as do most, need to read the entire letter without chapter and verse deviding it up.

Reading by knowing the context is very essential or else reading the whole makes no sense.

 

[Alithis]

The only clarification I would make is that we do not die when we are water baptized. We died when Christ died. Our water baptism is our outer show of faith that we are in agreement with God. Our whole concept of being "born again" has been reduced to a marketing catch phrase. We do not understand the truth of those words, that we are truly offered new natures. Many look into a mirror and forget that they were made new, and end up the same old natured man. But praise God, true sheep look into a mirror and continue to look in that mirror where they see not them, but Christ in them. You are absolutely correct. It is not a one time "I am now saved because I said a prayer and was baptized" moment. We have been born anew into a lifetime of being saved. That is why enduring to the end is called for. And for those who are truly the elect, of course we will ebb dire to the end. Who would want to go back to lifelessness where we ruled the roost? Not me.

I believe that ideally, if the gospel is preached correctly and in power, a man can be brought to see himself a wretch with no hope, hear of the offer of not only being forgiven but actually being given a new nature, a new life where Christ rules, get saved , be baptized right then and walk in victory immediately. But as Leonard Ravenhill once said, modern Christianity pulls them out of the womb before they see that they are worthy of death, and do them a great disservice. Baptism to them is but a ritual, not a place of agreement with God, and being that it is not coupled with faith that we died with Christ, it profits them nothing.

Thanks Michael. I pray one day we are able to meet. And if not now, then on the other side.

Blessings,

Gids

yup we die "into ' his death .. "We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father,we too may walk in newness of life." perhaps we might put it .. it is Done by christ .. we enter into it through baptism .
baptism is absolutely NOT symbolic any more then any thing else in chrsit Jeuss .. it is all power all truth all real..

The thing that leads people into thinking they cant stop sinning (and thus entraps them in it ) is that they dont actually believe that christ has actually set them free, and sadly this stems often from what is preached from the churched system .it has been infiltrated with a version of the gospel that offer forgiveness but not repentance and thus Not freedom,. and that is simply a lie ..
we both know it to be so ,as do other here.
Jesus came to set us FREE not leave us languishing in sin.
of course I dont repeat this to you Bruce ,but for the sake of other readers

 

[Gideons300]

First one needs to reckon himself dead to moral law through Christ's death. Or else he is still under curses (gala3:10, 13).

Brother, we have gone on about this as far as we can go. To do any more would do more harm than good. God bless you in following Him. May our God lead all f us into the truth that sets free indeed.

Gideon

 

[Alithis]

Reading by knowing the context is very essential or else reading the whole makes no sense.

ok now its just annoying .. as this you have posted is almost belligerent , the WHOLE .."IS" the context ..picking out sentences and presenting by them selves is taking them OUT of their Context . paul did not write chapters and verses .. he sat down and wrote them a whole letter ... read it as such .

 

[Gideons300]

yup we die "into ' his death .. "We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father,we too may walk in newness of life." perhaps we might put it .. it is Done by christ .. we enter into it through baptism .
baptism is absolutely NOT symbolic any more then any thing else in chrsit Jeuss .. it is all power all truth all real..

The thing that leads people into thinking they cant stop sinning (and thus entraps them in it ) is that they dont actually believe that chrsit has actually set them free, and sadly this stems often from what is preached from the churched system .it has been infiltrated with a version of the gospel that offer forgiveness but not repentance and thus Not freedom,. and that is simply a lie ..
we both know it to be so ,as do other here.
Jesus came to set us FREE not leave us languishing in sin.
of course I dont repeat this to you Bruce ,but for the sake of other readers

I know brother. Until we hate the fruit of our old nature, regardless of whether we believe He can actually set us free indeed, we will not be prepared to get out of the boat and walk on the water to our Lord.

We have, as a whole, walked in sin and weakness for so long, and yet been assured that all is well, that many have accepted their defeat as quite normal, to he point that there is no brokenness when we sin, and runs no repentance. We reason 'Why sweat it? We cannot stop sinning no matter how hard we try so why worry about it?' Then the coup de grace that makes us feel spiritual. We are told 'Don't be sin conscious. Just keep your eyes on Jesus and all is well.'

What? The very reason we sinned was because we were not looking at Him, the deliverer from our sinful nature, the one who keeps us from falling. To remain in our sinful state and try to keep our eyes on Jesus when our unbelief is the very thing preventing Him from delivering us. This mindset gives Satan huge advantage for our sin will assuredly harden our hearts. We will continue to say the right things, but our hearts will get to the point that our walk is head knowledge, not faith at all.

Blessings,

Gids

 

[Gideons300]

ok now its just annoying .. as this you have posted is almost belligerent , the WHOLE .."IS" the context ..picking out sentences and presenting by them selves is taking them OUT of their Context . paul did not write chapters and verses .. he sat down and wrote them a whole letter ... read it as such .

It seems we are on the same page at the same time, LOL. I just wish we would get an answer to the question about adultery. By his definition and reasoning, because we are not under the law anymore, then anything we do, no matter how vile is not a sin. How..... convenient. Satan has been allowed to enter into the very church of Christ, sowing confusion and twisting scripture to make sin okay, but God is about to sort it all out.

Thank God, in these last days, His sheep who truly love the light WILL come to it, even if now they do not understand how it could ever be possible to BE light. The goats will continue to try to find ways to save their self life, for to them, losing ones life to find His is legalism. The separation is beginning, but it will not be easy. We have strongholds of unbelief and misunderstandings to tear down.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Alithis]

I know brother. Until we hate the fruit of our old nature, regardless of whether we believe He can actually set us free indeed, we will not be prepared to get out of the boat and walk on the water to our Lord.

We have, as a whole, walked in sin and weakness for so long, and yet been assured that all is well, that many have accepted their defeat as quite normal, to he point that there is no brokenness when we sin, and runs no repentance. We reason 'Why sweat it? We cannot stop sinning no matter how hard we try so why worry about it?' Then the coup de grace that makes us feel spiritual. We are told 'Don't be sin conscious. Just keep your eyes on Jesus and all is well.'

What? The very reason we sinned was because we were not looking at Him, the deliverer from our sinful nature, the one who keeps us from falling. To remain in our sinful state and try to keep our eyes on Jesus when our unbelief is the very thing preventing Him from delivering us. This mindset gives Satan huge advantage for our sin will assuredly harden our hearts. We will continue to say the right things, but our hearts will get to the point that our walk is head knowledge, not faith at all.

Blessings,

Gids

HIGHLY recommended viewing i cannot emphasis how highly
please dont shy from watching this i KNOW you will enjoy it .and others will benefit .

this is episode 4 .. but after you watch it i suggest getting some friend together for a weekend lounge seminar and watching the WHOLE thing together and simply do what he teaches

this is a training seminar (hands on practicle ) to get people to get OUT OF THE world infiltrated church SYSTEM and back into being disciples .

 

[Gideons300]

I know brother. Until we hate the fruit of our old nature, regardless of whether we believe He can actually set us free indeed, we will not be prepared to get out of the boat and walk on the water to our Lord.

We have, as a whole, walked in sin and weakness for so long, and yet been assured that all is well, that many have accepted their defeat as quite normal, to he point that there is no brokenness when we sin, and thus no repentance. We reason 'Why sweat it? We cannot stop sinning no matter how hard we try so why worry about it?' Then the coup de grace that makes us feel spiritual. We are told 'Don't be sin conscious. Just keep your eyes on Jesus and all is well.'

What? The very reason we sinned was because we were not looking at Him, the deliverer from our sinful nature, the one who keeps us from falling. To remain in our sinful state and try to keep our eyes on Jesus when our unbelief is the very thing preventing Him from delivering us. This mindset gives Satan huge advantage for our sin will assuredly harden our hearts. We will continue to say the right things, but our hearts will get to the point that our walk is head knowledge, not faith at all.

Blessings,

Gids

 

[Si_monfaith]

I know brother. Until we hate the fruit of our old nature, regardless of whether we believe He can actually set us free indeed, we will not be prepared to get out of the boat and walk on the water to our Lord.

We have, as a whole, walked in sin and weakness for so long, and yet been assured that all is well, that many have accepted their defeat as quite normal, to he point that there is no brokenness when we sin, and runs no repentance. We reason 'Why sweat it? We cannot stop sinning no matter how hard we try so why worry about it?' Then the coup de grace that makes us feel spiritual. We are told 'Don't be sin conscious. Just keep your eyes on Jesus and all is well.'

What? The very reason we sinned was because we were not looking at Him, the deliverer from our sinful nature, the one who keeps us from falling. To remain in our sinful state and try to keep our eyes on Jesus when our unbelief is the very thing preventing Him from delivering us. This mindset gives Satan huge advantage for our sin will assuredly harden our hearts. We will continue to say the right things, but our hearts will get to the point that our walk is head knowledge, not faith at all.

Blessings,

Gids

Trying to access the Father through works is diminishing the power of Jesus' works.

Thinking that one will lose salvation becz of works is again diminishing the works of the Lord.

 

[Si_monfaith]

ok now its just annoying .. as this you have posted is almost belligerent , the WHOLE .."IS" the context ..picking out sentences and presenting by them selves is taking them OUT of their Context . paul did not write chapters and verses .. he sat down and wrote them a whole letter ... read it as such .

2 corin 11:
17 In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool. 18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast.

The above is not inspiration from God but the writer's own opinion.

The whole letter need not contain whole truth.

 

[Si_monfaith]

It is law which gives life to sin. (Rom 7:9). Without dying to law in Christ, talking about overcoming the old nature just becomes a figment of imagination & an act of flesh trusting in human strength & wisdom.

 

[Gideons300]

It is law which gives life to sin. (Rom 7:9). Without dying to law in Christ, talking about overcoming the old nature just becomes a figment of imagination & an act of flesh trusting in human strength & wisdom.

So have you found that this actually works in your own personal walk? Please understand. I do not want to know that even if you commit adultery, it is not really sin because you are not under the law. I want to know whether or not you still do the things your fleshly nature desires. Do you lust? Do you disobey the leadings of the Holy Spirit? If you find this to be true, and yet refuse to acknowledge your actions as sin because somehow, they do not count, then you are deceived.

We are told clearly that it is he that DOETH righteousness who is righteous. This is not legalism as many suppose. It is simply stating the truth which we have been led away from.

If we abide in Him, we WILL NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

We do not do righteous acts in order to obtain or to keep our salvation. We DO righteous acts because we have finally agreed with Jesus that we ARE new creatures, that it is no longer us that live, but Christ who now lives in us. Acts of sin die when the old nature really is reckoned dead.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Gideons300]

It is law which gives life to sin. (Rom 7:9). Without dying to law in Christ, talking about overcoming the old nature just becomes a figment of imagination & an act of flesh trusting in human strength & wisdom.

One cannot overcome the old nature. If that is what you have gotten out of what I have shared, then you have been mistaken. It is when we finally realize we will NEVER overcome it, or re-train it, or discipline it, and by faith reckon it died when Christ died, and by faith we hold this position when Satan comes tempting or accusing, then to our amazement we actually find we can overcome the sins that once mastered us.

What good is it to claim we are not under the law, if the results in our lives are the same as they were before? Shall we play like we are not sinning because positionally we are not under law, while at the same time, we never take our stand that we are now new creations? This is deception of great magnitude.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Si_monfaith]

One cannot overcome the old nature. If that is what you have gotten out of what I have shared, then you have been mistaken. It is when we finally realize we will NEVER overcome it, or re-train it, or discipline it, and by faith reckon it died when Christ died, and by faith we hold this position when Satan comes tempting or accusing, then to our amazement we actually find we can overcome the sins that once mastered us.

What good is it to claim we are not under the law, if the results in our lives are the same as they were before? Shall we play like we are not sinning because positionally we are not under law, while at the same time, we never take our stand that we are now new creations? This is deception of great magnitude.

Blessings,

Gideon

Sin overcomes only becz one looks to the law (rom6:14).

Only under grace of Jesus sin cannot overcome.

 

[Gideons300]

Sin overcomes only becz one looks to the law (rom6:14).

Only under grace of Jesus sin cannot overcome.

So then it would be impossible for a true Christian to fall into adultery, ignore the corrections and discipline of the Holy Spirit, and remain in adultery, correct? If he did, then he would be proved to not be a Christian at all, correct?

I ask that you please clarify for me what you are saying as to how this works in practical matters. Is adultery not a sin because we are no longer under law, or is adultery not a sin because a true believer will heed the leading of the Spirit and repent and turn back to God in obedience. If you want any to truly grasp what you are proposing, it is important that you clear the air as to questions like this.

Is a Christian who falls into adultery and refuses to give it up sinning?

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Si_monfaith]

So then it would be impossible for a true Christian to fall into adultery, ignore the corrections and discipline of the Holy Spirit, and remain in adultery, correct? If he did, then he would be proved to not be a Christian at all, correct?

I ask that you please clarify for me what you are saying as to how this works in practical matters. Is adultery not a sin because we are no longer under law, or is adultery not a sin because a true believer will heed the leading of the Spirit and repent and turn back to God in obedience. If you want any to truly grasp what you are proposing, it is important that you clear the air as to questions like this.

Is a Christian who falls into adultery and refuses to give it up sinning?

Blessings,

Gideon

Jesus destroyed the victory of sin by destroying the law. There is no other way to escape the clutch of sin which is the power that makes people do what they do not desire (Rom7:17,20).