Law versus grace. The contradiction of scriptures unraveled

Alithis

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The problem with your understanding is it's either black or white.

For your understanding a person either ignores sin that is saved or doesn't.

Maybe familiarize yourself with the role of the Holy Spirit who is working to sanctify EACH believer. I know you like to think you are better than the people that believe in OSAS, and grace, but we do not let sin rule our lives and we do follow Christ. Your argument is flawed.

Where is the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers? OSAS believers? Is He not there, God Himself?

I'm sorry to tell you that you are not the only person, the only saved person who abhores sin and listens to God. Stop talking down to other believers with your tunnel vision views.

We are all Christ's servants. We all don't try to sin. Your not that special, sorry to let the air out of your heavily inflated, self absorbed balloon brother. I suggest some humbleness, and a lot of prayer and opening yourself up to the Spirit of truth.

Try the Holy Spirit as your guide.
he does- as do many, and those that do obey the holy Spirit as their guide .. dont have to "try" not to sin ..they are too busy obeying the holy Spirit . you cannot obey the holy Spirit and sin at the same time :) it's impossible
and those that are born of god do not continue in the practice if sin ..its scripture ..in fact it states that CANNOT continue in sin .. it also states if they do .. they are not of god having niether seen him nor do they know him.. its just scripture .
 
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Razare

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HIGHLY recommended viewing i cannot emphasis how highly
please dont shy from watching this i KNOW you will enjoy it .and others will benefit .


this is episode 4 .. but after you watch it i suggest getting some friend together for a weekend lounge seminar and watching the WHOLE thing together and simply do what he teaches

this is a training seminar (hands on practicle ) to get people to get OUT OF THE world infiltrated church SYSTEM and back into being disciples .

I was taking his 20 lessons, and they were great up until he got to God's righteousness / Holiness and God's love.

It was one of the worst things I have put in my ears since coming to Christ. I think the blatantly wordily comments my roommates make out when they curse at me is better than what he outlined.

The guy has miraculous world changing faith, and lives in the spirit, but he has failed to understand God in a very serious way. It is also possible the language barrier is what caused the misunderstanding in his teaching. It is possible.

But the main reason he was wrong, was that he juxiposed God's love vs. God's Holiness. And he also made them equal. It's a false mindset and a false teaching.

From God's love, came God's holiness because love is the greatest 1 Corinthians 13:13. God did not say the holiness he has given me in his Son Jesus, surpasses the love of Christ expressed, through me. Rather, the love expressed through me by Jesus is holiness, and without that love, I am a filthy rag, and useless garbage.

So they are not equal, love is the foundation upon which holiness could even be asserted to exist in God.

He was also sharing how God does not love non-Christians only Christians. That God hates non-Christians.

But if this is so, God screwed up and sent his Son Jesus, whom somehow loved us more than God did. It was a very confusing and bad teaching he shared, so I honestly don't trust his teachings that much anymore. They were 120% superb until I heard that one on God's holiness.
 
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Alithis

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No saved Christians with the Holy Spirit are not sin concious if they listen to the Spirit.

Who are these people? Are these the people in your mind that make you seem holy? Open your eyes brother, see your own bias about other believers and how you have convinced yourself that it is true. Grow in the Lord. A branch must remain in the vine to be in truth. Seek Jesus, STAT.

This has been told to you about your fellow Christians over and over. Now you are bearing false witness, brother. That's not Godly

Last time I checked I never read about some help that the Holy Spirit needed directing His Own. Your chastising is not needed. Have faith that God works.
I am dead to the law. Galatians 2:19
I am dead to sin. Romans 6:11

A person dead to sin wont sin.

A person dead to the law wont live under it.

Free of sin, and free of the law, we are free. When I sin, I have not accepted either my death to the law, or my death to sin.
yes absolutely .. which always raises the question ... why do they then ?

this is a great sorrow ..in so many churched circles they are told that thing opposite to the word of god and they start to beleive it .. they are told ' it is ok we are just sinners saved ".. when you really stop and thing about it it is a ludicrous statement .
we 'were" - past tense , sinners .. but when we are born again and raised up in chrsit a NEW creation we are now , by the blood of christ .. saints !

And as we have been set free what excuse do we have to then go and sin a sin we know to be sin/ .. none .. we are free . it has no dominion over us therefore no power to control us .we are free to choose to DO Righteousness .

so when people continue to say they are saved .. but also continue to sin we know one of 3 things ..
1 they are not yet saved from their sin
2. they have not yet repented (there is no forgiveness without repentance and there is no more sacrifice if we sin willfully )
3. they are false and not of God .
these words will make some spirits rage .. but in all truth it is what the word of god plainly states ..(ref 1 john ch 3 ) and it should greatly trouble the hearts of those who secretly continue in sin thinking god does not see or judge . they are wrong
 
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Alithis

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I was taking his 20 lessons, and they were great up until he got to God's righteousness / Holiness and God's love.

It was one of the worst things I have put in my ears since coming to Christ. I think the blatantly wordily comments my roommates make out when they curse at me is better than what he outlined.

The guy has miraculous world changing faith, and lives in the spirit, but he has failed to understand God in a very serious way. It is also possible the language barrier is what caused the misunderstanding in his teaching. It is possible.

But the main reason he was wrong, was that he juxiposed God's love vs. God's Holiness. And he also made them equal. It's a false mindset and a false teaching.

From God's love, came God's holiness because love is the greatest 1 Corinthians 13:13. God did not say the holiness he has given me in his Son Jesus, surpasses the love of Christ expressed, through me. Rather, the love expressed through me by Jesus is holiness, and without that love, I am a filthy rag, and useless garbage.

So they are not equal, love is the foundation upon which holiness could even be asserted to exist in God.

He was also sharing how God does not love non-Christians only Christians. That God hates non-Christians.

But if this is so, God screwed up and sent his Son Jesus, whom somehow loved us more than God did. It was a very confusing and bad teaching he shared, so I honestly don't trust his teachings that much anymore. They were 120% superb until I heard that one on God's holiness.
in lesson 17 he mixes a few words up in english.. but other then that nope you could not be more wrong .. but then if you have listened and are not DOING the gospel.. you have not actually listened at all . wording things differently as to gods holiness is all your quibbling over . the truth is GOD is going to knowingly wilfully THROW the disobedient into hell fire and he IS fully justified in doing so . and wil do so just as he has said he will . and many who say lord lord will be among those who perish because the refuse to repent of their sin -albeit they attend 2 hour church all the time .
god is equal perfect and just in all he does . we cannot ever say his love or holiness are not equal, he is perfect in everything he is .
 
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Razare

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in lesson 17 he mixes a few words up in english.. but other then that nope you could not be more wrong .. but then if you have listened and are not DOING the gospel.. you have not actually listened at all . wording things differently as to gods holiness is all your quibbling over . the truth is GOD is going to knowingly wilfully THROW the disobedient into hell fire and he IS fully justified in doing so . and wil do so just as he has said he will . and many who say lord lord will be among those who perish because the refuse to repent of their sin -albeit they attend 2 hour church all the time .
god is equal perfect and just in all he does . we cannot ever say his love or holiness are not equal, he is perfect in everything he is .

If words don't matter... "Jesus is not the Son of God." and now I could go out and share the gospel. It's a Muslim Gospel, but it's the gospel if words don't matter but just doing.

Anyway, why love is the basis if holiness. What you are missing is that love is not what humans call love. It is what is called love in 1 Corinthians 13.

1 Corinthians 13 - Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

That God favors truth, and does not rejoice in iniquity, is the entire basis of why God judges according to the truth, and exercises the truth, rejoicing in it. The truth is the basis of God's holiness in terms of judgement, because if he has no truth, he has no ability to judge truthfully.

Love is the foundation upon which everyone who does not repent will be thrown into the eternal fire, because God is Love. The judgement of God is born from that love.

A human example is that if a man comes to murder my kids and family, I will kill that man, even if it sends him to hell. This is love.

So when God throws people into the eternal fire, he loves them completely. He loves them enough to be an honest judge and judge truthfully, not tainting the nature of good and love, holiness and judgement.
 
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Alithis

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If words don't matter... "Jesus is not the Son of God." and now I could go out and share the gospel. It's a Muslim Gospel, but it's the gospel if words don't matter but just doing.

Anyway, why love is the basis if holiness. What you are missing is that love is not what humans call love. It is what is called love in 1 Corinthians 13.

1 Corinthians 13 - Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

That God favors truth, and does not rejoice in iniquity, is the entire basis of why God judges according to the truth, and exercises the truth, rejoicing in it. The truth is the basis of God's holiness in terms of judgement, because if he has no truth, he has no ability to judge truthfully.

Love is the foundation upon which everyone who does not repent will be thrown into the eternal fire, because God is Love. The judgement of God is born from that love.

A human example is that if a man comes to murder my kids and family, I will kill that man, even if it sends him to hell. This is love.

So when God throws people into the eternal fire, he loves them completely. He loves them enough to be an honest judge and judge truthfully, not tainting the nature of good and love, holiness and judgement.

-"if a man comes to murder my kids and family, I will kill that man, ".... ?- why do you say that . it is almost arrogance. you assume you will have any power to do such a thing and als assume god has no ability to save you ..it is declaration without faith .

firstly .. God IS love .and God IS holy .. so he is equal in both .

i think the point is .. your throwing the baby out with the bath water and i this case that bath water is simply a possible misconception of what he is saying in his english as a second language way .. follow it through to the point being made about focusing on the lord and DOING what he says to do and leaving sin far behind . rather then pick out a singular misunderstood point and thereby turning many away from a truth which needs to be heard in this luke warm pew warming sin allowing modern day ear tickling environment .
be cautious not to advocate a continence of such things .

i should add: the link i sent is to a kickstart seminar .. the part you dont see is them going out on the streets and healing people ..they baptised over 60 people many ex catholics who had been sprinkled . many were delivered of demons and healed . BUt for a more indepth look at what he is saying ..go to www.thelastreformation.com or youtube search the last reformation the pioneer school . there you will see the full 20 lessons about 1 hour long each and there you may get a better idea of what he means ... in the above link its a very abbreviated version .most people at the course have already heard the full pioneer school. so he didn't need to explain much .

(we have found most people get the most upset when their particular demon is suddenly goaded .. and i'm not speaking figuratively . i mean actually get physically upset and angry and begin manifesting demons and get delivered .. -iv not seen anything like it before ..normal every day self professing Christians suddenly becoming enraged at the word of god and writhing growling snapping teeth until the demon gets cast out of them .. )
 
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Gideons300

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How can you 'not agree more' but then throw all the 'but's' in there.

Sounds like a lot of you, you, you doing not Christ, Christ, Christ. Why did He die to give you the Holy Spirit to help you?

Please do not 'I could not agree with you more' then throw in your 'but', 'but'. That's not agreement. I can lookup the definition of agree for you.
Sister, may I humbly ask you please do not let your response become a personal accusation for it is against forum rules, and more importantly be adverse to what Christ desires for us.

My point is that if we are dead to sin, and sin still lords it over us, if self is still in control, if we are still found walking in our fleshly nature, positional holiness is of little value. In fact, we are told that to whom much is given, much is required.

At some point, should we not be asking ourselves why, if we really are dead to sin, if we really are new creations in Christ, why we do not ever see the results in real life? It should bother us to no end. It does not.... yet. So why is our profession and our possession worlds apart? What is causing the process of being transformed into His image to de- rail?

It is simple. It is because we have not mixed what we "know" with our profession of faith that we do indeed possess it. We have the blood of Jesus, but have never combined it with the word of our testimony. We have never apprehended that for which we were apprehended, reckoning ourself truly dead to sin's power. Knowing with our heads that we died when Christ died is a must, but if we do not then follow it by our making a stand of faith and reckon it to be true for US, now, today, we give Satan a huge opportunity to bring us back to walk as old men.

And if we do, and continue to sin willfully, our hearts will be hardened and we are in danger of our faith turning into head knowledge only. We may say all the right words, but real faith in the promises He has made us may become totally absent.

So when Satan comes tempting, and he always does, and we do not meet him with our shield of faith held high that the old us is indeed dead, we are in for a fall. We try to resist him in our strength, and failure ensues. Our shield of faith must be wielded, and if we do, God promises victory over every single arrow. Amazing God!

Sister, I welcome your response, if it is done in love and not belittling in a personal way. We are told we must love all of our brothers, even those who disagree with us, I fully realize what I share is often misunderstood, and I can accept this, but in sharing this message, I pray you believe that the things I say, even the hard things that may irritate the flesh, are said in love and concern.

What God has for us, what He is awakening us to, is simply mind blowing. But just as the scriptures tell us, it is they who sow in tears who will be the ones who reap in joy. If we are simply satisfied with assurance that Heaven will be our home, and yet do not ever hunger and thirst for righteousness.....His to be manifested through us.... we rob ourselves of the full blessing of our salvation and give Satan an advantage he is in no way entitled to, and trust me, he will not pass the opportunity by.

Be blessed,

Gideon
 
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Si_monfaith

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The problem with this is that those who supposedly are not sin conscious are not found progressing in holiness at all. They are simply ignoring the sins they continue to commit, being taught that to acknowledge them and to want victory over them is being "sin conscious".

The Holy Spirit is not to tell us that our sins no longer matter, for if we continue to sow to the flesh, we will of the flesh reap corruption. All who are true children of God WILL receive correction and discipline when they err, not to punish, but to lead them towards the answer where sin is actually defeated. We are told clearly that if we do not receive chastening, we are bastards and not sons or daughters at all.

When He corrects us, His purpose is that we repent and turn away from the sin. If we do not know how to do so, we are asked to cry out to Him for the answer, not to be content with sin still lording it over us.There is a real answer, but first, we must want it more than our next breath. Sin must become exceedingly sinful to us.

We have devised a grace that in no way teaches us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we are to live soberly, righteously and justly. Frankly, most do not even see it is possible, so why try at all? They reason that to do so would be to "work" for ones salvation. We are seeing the church basically saying "Let us sin, that grace may abound".

The Bible tells us that in the last days, there would not be a great movement of legalism based upon sin consciousness, but a movement where grace is turned into a false grace, a license to sin, called lasciviousness.

Oh, how we need to discover the secret to the gospel where we are actually delivered not just from the penalty for our sins, but from the power of darkness itself. If we saw that ignoring our sins actually brought us victory over them, I would agree with you, but this is not what we see at all. Hearts continue to be hardened more and more because sin is allowed to remain there, and our ignoring it in no way weakens it. It strengthens its grip.

There is an answer, real freedom, where we truly are not sin conscious at all, but God conscious, but first the flesh must be dealt a death blow, and for that to happen, we must actually hate that old rebellious nature, hate the sins we continue to commit, and long for the "free indeed" Jesus described to us. I pray we remember how Jesus defined this wonderful state. He that commits sin is still a slave to the devil. To be free indeed is nothing less than to be delivered from committing sin, period. God will grant us the faith to believe he can do such a miracle for us, but not until we cry out as wretched men, needing new hearts... new natures.... that hate the sin that God so hates. When we do, seeking God AND His righteousness, to our amazement, we will find out that He will respond and plant our feet on the highway OF holiness, not that highway TO it.

Blessings,

Gideon

Progressing in holiness: Were adam & eve progressing in holiness when they remained naked until they chose the kge?
 
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Alithis

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Progressing in holiness: Were adam & eve progressing in holiness when they remained naked until they chose the kge?
they did not have to .. but you raise a valid point .and i recognise it happily . your saying they did not have to 'be ' holy because before the separated themselves from god by sin they were already holy unto the lord . holiness is being set apart TO God . they removed themselves from that positional holiness when they sinned against god
In christ we are returned to that position of holiness unto god .. but we too must not remove ourselves from it again ..
as is written -we are now to walk worthy of it .. we are now to keep separated , we are now to put OFF the old man ,the list goes on .
people forget .. adam and eve were deceived ..they listened to a lie .. Jesus has now come and made know the truth and broken the power of the lie , so we have no excuse to continue in practices of unholiness .

but this thread is about holiness in the assemblies of the children of god .. and how for a large part it has become an unacceptable concept to the so called christians who prefer a life mingled with sinfulness and dont like to hear about it .

lets clarify - which are you ?
 
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