Law versus grace. The contradiction of scriptures unraveled

[Razare]

I am dead to the law. Galatians 2:19
I am dead to sin. Romans 6:11

A person dead to sin wont sin.

A person dead to the law wont live under it.

Free of sin, and free of the law, we are free. When I sin, I have not accepted either my death to the law, or my death to sin.

 

[Gideons300]

Jesus destroyed the victory of sin by destroying the law. There is no other way to escape the clutch of sin which is the power that makes people do what they do not desire (Rom7:17,20).

You are avoiding the plain question asked of you. I have said that any further discussions with you are pointless unless we can communicate. Why are you avoiding such a clear and simple question? I will be glad to do the same.

I feel like I am getting an auto response from a pre-recorded message.would you be so kind and answer the question and then we may have something to discuss. Otherwise I will simply close this thread as it has run its course.

Thanks.

Gideon

 

[Gideons300]

I am dead to the law. Galatians 2:19
I am dead to sin. Romans 6:11

A person dead to sin wont sin.

A person dead to the law wont live under it.

Free of sin, and free of the law, we are free. When I sin, I have not accepted either my death to the law, or my death to sin.

Brother, I could not agree more. IF we sin (not when but if), we call it what it is..... Sin. We repent and turn away from it and toward God.

But here is the critical point. We MUST pick our shield of faith back up and take our position as being dead to sin. Satan will try to pry those words out of our mouths, trust me. We must realize we fell for one reason, and one alone. Unbelief.

Our flesh is not untamable. We are not too weak to walk above sin. It is our faith that is small, as we begin like little children to become established in the faith as to who we are in Christ and who Christ is in us. But the truth is, we ARE dead. We do not believe it and the we die. We have already died! We believe it because it IS true, regardless of if our faith wavered!

Satan wants us to return to the wilderness of unbelief, where we return to trying, and failing, to overcome self. Let us remember when Joshua entered the Promised land, and was told that every step they took would be theirs, and sin in the camp caused the Israelites to suffer a humiliating defeat at Ai, it did not change the truth that the promised land was his. Only the enjoyment of it, walking in victory was affected. So IF we slip while arming ourselves with the truth that we are NOT in the flesh and owe it nothing, what do we do? Conclude it is all hogwash and return to a life of defeat, running laps around the wilderness? God forbid! We repent, believe again, and praise God, our faith grows!

If we abide in Him, we will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. So we must ask ourselves. Is abiding in Him nothing more than a carrot on a stick we will never truly enjoy this side of Heaven, or is it the very power we need to overthrow our very deceptive and very rebellious flesh? That is the decision we all must grapple with. But first we must ask ourselves.... Do we really want to be Free Indeed in this life. A soul searching question.

Brother, thank you for your post.

Gideon

 

[DawnStar]

Brother, I could not agree more. IF we sin (not when but if), we call it what it is..... Sin. We repent and turn away from it and toward God.

But here is the critical point. We MUST pick our shield of faith back up and take our position as being dead to sin. Satan will try to pry those words out of our mouths, trust me. We must realize we fell for one reason, and one alone. Unbelief.

Our flesh is not untamable. We are not too weak to walk above sin. It is our faith that is small, as we begin like little children to become established in the faith. But the truth is, we are dead. We do not. believe it and the we die. We have already died! We believe it because it IS true, regardless of if our faith wavered!

Satan wants us to return to the wilderness of unbelief, where we return to. trying, and failing, to overcome self. Let us remember when Joshua began by faith to take what was given to him, and sin in the camp caused the Israelites to suffer a humiliating defeat at Ai, it did not change the truth that the promised land was his. Only the enjoyment of it, walking in victory was affected. Repent, believe again, and praise God, your faith grows!

If we abide in Him, we will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. So we must ask ourselves. Is abiding in Him. N b. B. a carrot on a stick we will never truly enjoy this side of Heaven, or is it the very power we need to overthrow our very deceptive and very rebellious flesh?

Brother, thank you for your post.

Gideon

Do you ever sin? I do not need a long response. Just a yes or no will be fine.

 

[Gideons300]

Do you ever sin? I do not need a long response. Just a yes or no will be fine.

Yes. Now if you are content to stop there, I cannot stop you.

But with that let me say this as well. For nine years since the night God came to me in what can only be described as a miraculous visitation, as I have stood with my shield of faith held up, walking in my new nature, I have found God does indeed keep me from falling, just as He promised. Please understand as well, this is NOT freedom from character flaws and imperfections. It is freedom from willfully choosing to disobey the Lord.

Our flesh will hear "He sins. Case closed!" and dismiss the amazing truth God has asked me to share. This is not sinless perfectionism I am espousing. We do not "arrive". We walk by faith, we grow in faith, believing who Christ has told us we are. And as we do so, to our amazement, we find the sins that once ruled over us no longer do. Willful sin is defeated.

We are each called to fight our good fight of faith, to the end that we are established in it. And when we are established, we will find that our Jesus indeed DOES keep us from falling, He DOES set us free indeed as He defined it. He DOES actually deliver us from the power of darkness. He DOES cause us to walk as obedient children, just as He said He would. And praise God, we DO take the way of escape every time we are tempted!

But faith demands we believe it is true and is our possession right now, today, with no outer evidence. And if we will do so..... exercise audacious faith, we will find that as our faith grows in this truth, praise God, we see it manifested more and more on the outside of our cups.

The question before us is..... Do we really want to overcome the world? Do we truly long for victory over our rebellious old nature and the devil who tempts us to call God a liar by whispering "Hath God said?" And when our hunger for pure hearts drives us to our knees and we cannot take another step without enjoying abiding in Him, we realize that it is when we combine the blood of the lamb with the words of OUR testimony that we finally experience freedom from the shackles of self love, self rule and self centeredness. It works. Amazing God!

Blessings,

Gids

 

[Si_monfaith]

Brother, I could not agree more. IF we sin (not when but if), we call it what it is..... Sin. We repent and turn away from it and toward God.

But here is the critical point. We MUST pick our shield of faith back up and take our position as being dead to sin. Satan will try to pry those words out of our mouths, trust me. We must realize we fell for one reason, and one alone. Unbelief.

Our flesh is not untamable. We are not too weak to walk above sin. It is our faith that is small, as we begin like little children to become established in the faith as to who we are in Christ and who Christ is in us. But the truth is, we ARE dead. We do not believe it and the we die. We have already died! We believe it because it IS true, regardless of if our faith wavered!

Satan wants us to return to the wilderness of unbelief, where we return to trying, and failing, to overcome self. Let us remember when Joshua entered the Promised land, and was told that every step they took would be theirs, and sin in the camp caused the Israelites to suffer a humiliating defeat at Ai, it did not change the truth that the promised land was his. Only the enjoyment of it, walking in victory was affected. So IF we slip while arming ourselves with the truth that we are NOT in the flesh and owe it nothing, what do we do? Conclude it is all hogwash and return to a life of defeat, running laps around the wilderness? God forbid! We repent, believe again, and praise God, our faith grows!

If we abide in Him, we will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. So we must ask ourselves. Is abiding in Him nothing more than a carrot on a stick we will never truly enjoy this side of Heaven, or is it the very power we need to overthrow our very deceptive and very rebellious flesh? That is the decision we all must grapple with. But first we must ask ourselves.... Do we really want to be Free Indeed in this life. A soul searching question.

Brother, thank you for your post.

Gideon

Nudity was not considered to be guilty until eve chose kge.

The knowledge of what an act of sin is, comes from kge.

Jesus came to give full deliverance.

Apart from law sin is not accounted (rom5:13). It is accounted only for those who reject this grace.

 

[DawnStar]

Yes.

OK. So you are just like the rest of us Christians. We sin. We repent. We ask forgiveness. We accept the forgiveness given to us. We do not dwell in that sin and we move on. It is that simple. No matter how many pages and pages of messages from God you give us. There is no long formula for forgiveness. You are making something so simple extremely difficult for people to understand. I do not doubt your zeal in proclaiming the message you feel God wants you to share. I am just saying your message gets lost in what you are trying to share in your rambling posts. I am sure many people get lost in your posts and just quit reading them.

 

[Gideons300]

OK. So you are just like the rest of us Christians. We sin. We ask forgiveness. We accept the forgiveness given to us. We do not dwell in that sin and we move on. It is that simple. No matter how many pages and pages of messages from God you give us. There is no long formula for forgiveness. You are making something so simple extremely difficult for people to understand. I do not doubt your zeal in proclaiming the message you feel God wants you to share. I am just saying your message gets lost in what you are trying to share in your rambling posts. I am sure many people get lost in your posts and just quit reading them.

<Sigh>

No, sister. What we have failed to understand is that we cannot progress towards dying to self. The old nature will never be defeated if we do. It is once we have reckoned ourselves dead to sin, and declared that we are no longer in the flesh, and owe it NOTHING, it is then that the potter has us centered on His wheel, and to our amazement, the transformation begins. We progress ON the highway of holiness as our faith grows.

If the way we have all been taught is correct, why do we see no saints who have "progressed" for many decades leading the way in holy living, in singleness of eye, in presenting their bodies as living sacrifices? Why do none in the world say of us "Behold how they love one another!" The answer is simple. Like the Israelites in the wilderness, we have mistaken movement for growth. God is awakening us to the HOW of holiness, but until it bothers us that our lives display so little of Christ, and worse yet, that we are content there for after all "no one is perfect", we will remain wanderers, not sojourners. We have a form of godliness but deny that Christ can set us free indeed, that He can actually keep us from falling.

God has far more for us than we can even imagine and is saying to us "Open your mouth wide and I will fill it." Our problem is that we are quite content with the endless cycle of sin, repent, and sin again. We do not expect to overcome. We simply hope to endure. There is more. The question of the hour is "Who is desperately hungry for it, hating the old nature that dominates our thoughts?

Some will wake to righteousness sooner than others. That is to be expected. But rest assured, everyone who loves the light will come to it, for His sheep will hear His voice.

Blessings, sister.

Gideon

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

OK. So you are just like the rest of us Christians. We sin. We repent. We ask forgiveness. We accept the forgiveness given to us. We do not dwell in that sin and we move on. It is that simple. No matter how many pages and pages of messages from God you give us. There is no long formula for forgiveness. You are making something so simple extremely difficult for people to understand. I do not doubt your zeal in proclaiming the message you feel God wants you to share. I am just saying your message gets lost in what you are trying to share in your rambling posts. I am sure many people get lost in your posts and just quit reading them.

This is true.

 

[Si_monfaith]

<Sigh>

No, sister. What we have failed to understand is that we cannot progress towards dying to self. The old nature will never be defeated if we do. It is once we have reckoned ourselves dead to sin, and declared that we are no longer in the flesh, and owe it NOTHING, it is then that the potter has us centered on His wheel, and to our amazement, the transformation begins. We progress ON the highway of holiness as our faith grows.

If the way we have all been taught is correct, why do we see no saints who have "progressed" for many decades leading the way in holy living, in singleness of eye, in presenting their bodies as living sacrifices? Why do none in the world say of us "Behold how they love one another!" The answer is simple. Like the Israelites in the wilderness, we have mistaken movement for growth. God is awakening us to the HOW of holiness, but until it bothers us that our lives display so little of Christ, and worse yet, that we are content there for after all "no one is perfect", we will remain wanderers, not sojourners. We have a form of godliness but deny that Christ can set us free indeed, that He can actually keep us from falling.

God has far more for us than we can even imagine and is saying to us "Open your mouth wide and I will fill it." Our problem is that we are quite content with the endless cycle of sin, repent, and sin again. We do not expect to overcome. We simply hope to endure. There is more. The question of the hour is "Who is desperately hungry for it, hating the old nature that dominates our thoughts?

Some will wake to righteousness sooner than others. That is to be expected. But rest assured, everyone who loves the light will come to it, for His sheep will hear His voice.

Blessings, sister.

Gideon

1 john 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Bible does not talk of committing act of sin, confessing, etc in cycles. Are such people born of God?

 

[DawnStar]

<Sigh>

No, sister. What we have failed to understand is that we cannot progress towards dying to self. The old nature will never be defeated if we do. It is once we have reckoned ourselves dead to sin, and declared that we are no longer in the flesh, and owe it NOTHING, it is then that the potter has us centered on His wheel, and to our amazement, the transformation begins. We progress ON the highway of holiness as our faith grows.

If the way we have all been taught is correct, why do we see no saints who have "progressed" for many decades leading the way in holy living, in singleness of eye, in presenting their bodies as living sacrifices? Why do none in the world say of us "Behold how they love one another!" The answer is simple. Like the Israelites in the wilderness, we have mistaken movement for growth. God is awakening us to the HOW of holiness, but until it bothers us that our lives display so little of Christ, and worse yet, that we are content there for after all "no one is perfect", we will remain wanderers, not sojourners. We have a form of godliness but deny that Christ can set us free indeed, that He can actually keep us from falling.

God has far more for us than we can even imagine and is saying to us "Open your mouth wide and I will fill it." Our problem is that we are quite content with the endless cycle of sin, repent, and sin again. We do not expect to overcome. We simply hope to endure. There is more. The question of the hour is "Who is desperately hungry for it, hating the old nature that dominates our thoughts?

Some will wake to righteousness sooner than others. That is to be expected. But rest assured, everyone who loves the light will come to it, for His sheep will hear His voice.

Blessings, sister.

Gideon

OK. Well I guess the rest of us just do not get it then. No problem. I will keep to the simple message of salvation.

 

[jiminpa]

OK. Well I guess the rest of us just do not get it then. No problem. I will keep to the simple message of salvation.

The problem there is that victory over sin is the simple message of salvation. To expect any less is, well something less.

Yes, we grow. Yes, we fall. Then, if we walk according to the bible, we cry out to God, not for mere forgiveness, but for gracious victory.

 

[Gideons300]

Nudity was not considered to be guilty until eve chose kge.

The knowledge of what an act of sin is, comes from kge.

Jesus came to give full deliverance.

Apart from law sin is not accounted (rom5:13). It is accounted only for those who reject this grace.

And still no answer.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

OK. ... No problem. I will keep to the simple message of salvation.

Correct. Good.

OK. .... We sin. We repent. We ask forgiveness. We accept the forgiveness given to us. We do not dwell in that sin and we move on. It is that simple. No matter how many pages and pages of messages from God you give us. There is no long formula for forgiveness. You are making something so simple extremely difficult for people to understand. .. I am just saying your message gets lost in what you are trying to share in your rambling posts. I am sure many people get lost in your posts and just quit reading them.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It is the conscience of kge which polluted mankind back in eden.

Consciousness of Christ is very difficult for those polluted by kge. They will always be sin-conscious.

The scare mindedness is what adam & eve felt after they were corrupted by kge.

It is promoted by many churches. It keeps a man of God focused on himself. They live for it rather than Christ.

 

[Gideons300]

It is promoted by many churches. It keeps a man of God focused on himself. They live for it rather than Christ.

The problem with this is that those who supposedly are not sin conscious are not found progressing in holiness at all. They are simply ignoring the sins they continue to commit, being taught that to acknowledge them and to want victory over them is being "sin conscious".

The Holy Spirit is not to tell us that our sins no longer matter, for if we continue to sow to the flesh, we will of the flesh reap corruption. All who are true children of God WILL receive correction and discipline when they err, not to punish, but to lead them towards the answer where sin is actually defeated. We are told clearly that if we do not receive chastening, we are bastards and not sons or daughters at all.

When He corrects us, His purpose is that we repent and turn away from the sin. If we do not know how to do so, we are asked to cry out to Him for the answer, not to be content with sin still lording it over us.There is a real answer, but first, we must want it more than our next breath. Sin must become exceedingly sinful to us.

We have devised a grace that in no way teaches us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we are to live soberly, righteously and justly. Frankly, most do not even see it is possible, so why try at all? They reason that to do so would be to "work" for ones salvation. We are seeing the church basically saying "Let us sin, that grace may abound".

The Bible tells us that in the last days, there would not be a great movement of legalism based upon sin consciousness, but a movement where grace is turned into a false grace, a license to sin, called lasciviousness.

Oh, how we need to discover the secret to the gospel where we are actually delivered not just from the penalty for our sins, but from the power of darkness itself. If we saw that ignoring our sins actually brought us victory over them, I would agree with you, but this is not what we see at all. Hearts continue to be hardened more and more because sin is allowed to remain there, and our ignoring it in no way weakens it. It strengthens its grip.

There is an answer, real freedom, where we truly are not sin conscious at all, but God conscious, but first the flesh must be dealt a death blow, and for that to happen, we must actually hate that old rebellious nature, hate the sins we continue to commit, and long for the "free indeed" Jesus described to us. I pray we remember how Jesus defined this wonderful state. He that commits sin is still a slave to the devil. To be free indeed is nothing less than to be delivered from committing sin, period. God will grant us the faith to believe he can do such a miracle for us, but not until we cry out as wretched men, needing new hearts... new natures.... that hate the sin that God so hates. When we do, seeking God AND His righteousness, to our amazement, we will find out that He will respond and plant our feet on the highway OF holiness, not that highway TO it.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[ToBeLoved]

Brother, I could not agree more. IF we sin (not when but if), we call it what it is..... Sin. We repent and turn away from it and toward God.

But here is the critical point. We MUST pick our shield of faith back up and take our position as being dead to sin. Satan will try to pry those words out of our mouths, trust me. We must realize we fell for one reason, and one alone. Unbelief.

Our flesh is not untamable. We are not too weak to walk above sin. It is our faith that is small, as we begin like little children to become established in the faith as to who we are in Christ and who Christ is in us. But the truth is, we ARE dead. We do not believe it and the we die. We have already died! We believe it because it IS true, regardless of if our faith wavered!

Satan wants us to return to the wilderness of unbelief, where we return to trying, and failing, to overcome self. Let us remember when Joshua entered the Promised land, and was told that every step they took would be theirs, and sin in the camp caused the Israelites to suffer a humiliating defeat at Ai, it did not change the truth that the promised land was his. Only the enjoyment of it, walking in victory was affected. So IF we slip while arming ourselves with the truth that we are NOT in the flesh and owe it nothing, what do we do? Conclude it is all hogwash and return to a life of defeat, running laps around the wilderness? God forbid! We repent, believe again, and praise God, our faith grows!

If we abide in Him, we will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. So we must ask ourselves. Is abiding in Him nothing more than a carrot on a stick we will never truly enjoy this side of Heaven, or is it the very power we need to overthrow our very deceptive and very rebellious flesh? That is the decision we all must grapple with. But first we must ask ourselves.... Do we really want to be Free Indeed in this life. A soul searching question.

Brother, thank you for your post.

Gideon

How can you 'not agree more' but then throw all the 'but's' in there.

Sounds like a lot of you, you, you doing not Christ, Christ, Christ. Why did He die to give you the Holy Spirit to help you?

Please do not 'I could not agree with you more' then throw in your 'but', 'but'. That's not agreement. I can lookup the definition of agree for you.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The problem with this is that those who supposedly are not sin conscious are not found progressing in holiness at all. They are simply ignoring the sins they continue to commit, being taught that to acknowledge them and to want victory over them is being "sin conscious".

The Holy Spirit is not to tell us that our sins no longer matter, for if we continue to sow to the flesh, we will of the flesh reap corruption. All who are true children of God WILL receive correction and discipline when they err, not to punish, but to lead them towards the answer where sin is actually defeated. We are told clearly that if we do not receive chastening, we are bastards and not sons or daughters at all.

When He corrects us, His purpose is that we repent and turn away from the sin. If we do not know how to do so, we are asked to cry out to Him for the answer, not to be content with sin still lording it over us.There is a real answer, but first, we must want it more than our next breath. Sin must become exceedingly sinful to us.

We have devised a grace that in no way teaches us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we are to live soberly, righteously and justly. Frankly, most do not even see it is possible, so why try at all? They reason that to do so would be to "work" for ones salvation. We are seeing the church basically saying "Let us sin, that grace may abound".

The Bible tells us that in the last days, there would not be a great movement of legalism based upon sin consciousness, but a movement where grace is turned into a false grace, a license to sin, called lasciviousness.

Oh, how we need to discover the secret to the gospel where we are actually delivered not just from the penalty for our sins, but from the power of darkness itself. If we saw that ignoring our sins actually brought us victory over them, I would agree with you, but this is not what we see at all. Hearts continue to be hardened more and more because sin is allowed to remain there, and our ignoring it in no way weakens it. It strengthens its grip.

There is an answer, real freedom, where we truly are not sin conscious at all, but God conscious, but first the flesh must be dealt a death blow, and for that to happen, we must actually hate that old rebellious nature, hate the sins we continue to commit, and long for the "free indeed" Jesus described to us. I pray we remember how Jesus defined this wonderful state. He that commits sin is still a slave to the devil. To be free indeed is nothing less than to be delivered from committing sin, period. God will grant us the faith to believe he can do such a miracle for us, but not until we cry out as wretched men, needing new hearts... new natures.... that hate the sin that God so hates. When we do, seeking God AND His righteousness, to our amazement, we will find out that He will respond and plant our feet on the highway OF holiness, not that highway TO it.

Blessings,

Gideon

The problem with your understanding is it's either black or white.

For your understanding a person either ignores sin that is saved or doesn't.

Maybe familiarize yourself with the role of the Holy Spirit who is working to sanctify EACH believer. I know you like to think you are better than the people that believe in OSAS, and grace, but we do not let sin rule our lives and we do follow Christ. Your argument is flawed.

Where is the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers? OSAS believers? Is He not there, God Himself?

I'm sorry to tell you that you are not the only person, the only saved person who abhores sin and listens to God. Stop talking down to other believers with your tunnel vision views.

We are all Christ's servants. We all don't try to sin. Your not that special, sorry to let the air out of your heavily inflated, self absorbed balloon brother. I suggest some humbleness, and a lot of prayer and opening yourself up to the Spirit of truth.

Try the Holy Spirit as your guide.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The problem with this is that those who supposedly are not sin conscious are not found progressing in holiness at all. They are simply ignoring the sins they continue to commit, being taught that to acknowledge them and to want victory over them is being "sin conscious".

No saved Christians with the Holy Spirit are not sin concious if they listen to the Spirit.

Who are these people? Are these the people in your mind that make you seem holy? Open your eyes brother, see your own bias about other believers and how you have convinced yourself that it is true. Grow in the Lord. A branch must remain in the vine to be in truth. Seek Jesus, STAT.

This has been told to you about your fellow Christians over and over. Now you are bearing false witness, brother. That's not Godly

Last time I checked I never read about some help that the Holy Spirit needed directing His Own. Your chastising is not needed. Have faith that God works.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You are avoiding the plain question asked of you. I have said that any further discussions with you are pointless unless we can communicate. Why are you avoiding such a clear and simple question? I will be glad to do the same.

I feel like I am getting an auto response from a pre-recorded message.would you be so kind and answer the question and then we may have something to discuss. Otherwise I will simply close this thread as it has run its course.

Thanks.

Gideon

What more is needed to understand that Jesus CONQUERED sin? We are a new man in Christ.

Your theology that one needs to kill the old man is false, since Christ did that.

His post was simple. I liked it and think maybe the Holy Spirit is talking to you through others but you are just not understanding or listening.