What evidence do you have in your life that says you know God?

[Bible Highlighter]

What evidence do you have in your life that says you know God?

Do you think people are aware that you a Christian by the way you speak and act?


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[ZacharyB]

What evidence do you have in your life that says you know God?
Do you think people are aware that you a Christian by the way you speak and act?

Yes, brother, I see this as 2 different qvestions.
First, to receive eternal life ...
John says we must know God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ,
and they must know us, and we must do Their will, etc.
So one thing is: we must figure out what Their will is.
Second, by Christian you are referring to true born-again believers
who are actually continuing to be "in Christ" by walking in the Spirit,
by being led by the Spirit, etc.
What distinguishes a faithful Christian from other people
who are kind, gentle, peaceable, moral, and etc.?
Not much at all.
IMO, only the Spirit can reveal who is a true faithful Christian.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, brother, I see this as 2 different qvestions.

Yes, I agree. I see them as two questions, too. But I believe they are related, though.
For by answering these questions properly according to God's Word resolves the issue that a person may be having concerning the faith. In other words, both questions lead to the same point; Which is: - Does God live in a person whereby the fruits of the Lord will be evident in their life?

First, to receive eternal life ...
John says we must know God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ,
and they must know us, and we must do Their will, etc.
So one thing is: we must figure out what Their will is.
Second, by Christian you are referring to true born-again believers
who are actually continuing to be "in Christ" by walking in the Spirit,
by being led by the Spirit, etc.

I agree 100% with what you said here, my brother.
It is my prayer that others here will come to see this in time, as well.

What distinguishes a faithful Christian from other people
who are kind, gentle, peaceable, moral, and etc.?
Not much at all.
IMO, only the Spirit can reveal who is a true faithful Christian.

I tend to disagree a little here, my friend. There are many ways to tell the difference between the loving, kind, and caring unbeliever and the loving, kind, and caring genuine believer. There are "tells" that will show what their focus is in this life. Unbelievers are focused on the things of this world. Thus their morals are not going to be exactly like that of genuine believers. They may be close or similar but not exactly identical. A genuine believer is self sacrificing and has the light of God shining from them. Also, all who live Godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. This will not be the case for the unbeliever who is focused on the things of this world.


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[ZacharyB]

Yes, I agree. I see them as two questions, too. But I believe they are related, though.
For by answering these questions properly according to God's Word resolves the issue that a person may be having concerning the faith. In other words, both questions lead to the same point; Which is: - Does God live in a person whereby the fruits of the Lord will be evident in their life?



I agree 100% with what you said here, my brother.
It is my prayer that others here will come to see this in time, as well.



I tend to disagree a little here, my friend. There are many ways to tell the difference between the loving, kind, and caring unbeliever and the loving, kind, and caring genuine believer. There are "tells" that will show what their focus is in this life. Unbelievers are focused on the things of this world. Thus their morals are not going to be exactly like that of genuine believers. They may be close or similar but not exactly identical. A genuine believer is self sacrificing and has the light of God shining from them. Also, all who live Godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. This will not be the case for the unbeliever who is focused on the things of this world.


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[ZacharyB]

Yes, brother, I actually was speaking of the casual discerning of
a believer's life vs. that of some unbelievers (who can be impressive).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, brother, I actually was speaking of the casual discerning of
a believer's life vs. that of some unbelievers (who can be impressive).

I undestand now, my friend. Thank you for explaining.

...

 

[ZacharyB]

Yes, for example ...
when I was but a mere babe in the faith, I worked next to a very large lady
who seemed to be an exemplary example of perfect Christian behavior.
Butski, she was not a believer at all.
Then we have millions of Hindus, Muslims, etc.
who appear to be the paragons of very decent civilized humanity.

 

[brinny]

Great question, and one that prompts us to examine ourselves, as it is written and that we are admonished to do.

Thank you.

I will be watching the thread and offering further comments as time goes on.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, for example ...
when I was but a mere babe in the faith, I worked next to a very large lady
who seemed to be an exemplary example of perfect Christian behavior.
Butski, she was not a believer at all.
Then we have millions of Hindus, Muslims, etc.
who appear to be the paragons of very decent civilized humanity.

Yes, I imagine even the Anti-Christ will appear to be like a good guy or a savior to mankind in the beginning. But his true colors will reveal themselves as time progresses. However, many people will already be sucked into his way of thinking and be deceived into following him because of the good that he can provide for them.

Anyways, my assumption is that a person is an unbeliever until they say they believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior and God. My point is that under careful observation (even without knowing a person's faith), one can test and see if they are of God or not by their behavior. Are they in love with the things of the world? Do they make light of a certain sin? Do their words give any indication that there may be holding some kind of evil in their heart or that they are looking at things from a worldly perspective? For example: People today are focused on winning the lottery as if that would be the solution to solving all their problems in life. But a man of God is not focused on placing their treasures here upon this Earth, but they are focused on placing their treasures in heaven. The man of God is focused on chasing after righteousness and not riches (1 Timothy 6:6-11).

Paul says,

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5).​

This is the key focus of what I am getting at. A believer in Jesus Christ should be able to prove whether or not Christ lives in them or not (Whereby they are saved - For Christ is the source of a person's life - 1 John 5:12).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Great question, and one that prompts us to examine ourselves, as it is written and that we are admonished to do.

Thank you.

I will be watching the thread and offering further comments as time goes on.

You are most welcome. I asked this question because it is uncomfortable for many to face.

But I am glad you liked the question (Which is based on His Word).

Anyways, may God bless you.
And may you please be well.

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[brotherjerry]

What evidence do you have in your life that says you know God?

Do you think people are aware that you a Christian by the way you speak and act?
...

Interesting. Question 1 asks for boasting j/k

The evidence of Christ in my life comes from my house, that my wife has Christ in her life, and that both of my children have Christ in their life. The evidence is my replicating my faith in others. The evidence will be at the point of having my works put to the fire and what shall remain and what shall burn away.

And I agree that the two questions are related because the only way people can be aware is by the way you live your life. We hear the world tell us not to care what other people think, but we see that is not always the case when it comes to the Bible and our Christian faith. We are to be different from the world, we are to stand out. It says we should not rush to anger, hold our tongues, and many other references to presenting an image of God to the world. But it also warns of drawing attention to yourself by not too much jewelry, conservative attire, and such...(more interpretation in some of that and it is relative).

The key being however, that the life you live in public should be the same life you live in private (or vice versa).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Interesting. Question 1 asks for boasting j/k

Well, first, the question is based on God's Word (2 Corinthians 13:5). So I do not believe we should joke or make light of what we believe the Word of God to say. Second, there is no boasting in oneself if they are in Christ. For the believer realizes that any "good works" that are done in their life are a result of God living within them and it is not a result of their own effort. For Jesus said, "for without me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).

The evidence of Christ in my life comes from my house, that my wife has Christ in her life, and that both of my children have Christ in their life. The evidence is my replicating my faith in others. The evidence will be at the point of having my works put to the fire and what shall remain and what shall burn away.

The evidence that one has that God is living within them is if one is actually living righteously (Galatians 5:24-25) (1 John 2:3-6). Replicating of one's faith does not actually mean anything unless one is changing people's lives for the better by the power of Jesus Christ. For there are many people who follow another Christ and yet we know that they are false by their fruits (i.e. deeds). For Jesus said we will know false prophets (i.e. false believers) by their fruit (Matthew 7:15-16) (Also continue to read on from verses 17-23 - Matthew 7:17-23).

And I agree that the two questions are related because the only way people can be aware is by the way you live your life. We hear the world tell us not to care what other people think, but we see that is not always the case when it comes to the Bible and our Christian faith. We are to be different from the world, we are to stand out. It says we should not rush to anger, hold our tongues, and many other references to presenting an image of God to the world. But it also warns of drawing attention to yourself by not too much jewelry, conservative attire, and such...(more interpretation in some of that and it is relative).

I agree with what you said here.

The key being however, that the life you live in public should be the same life you live in private (or vice versa).

Yes, exactly.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).


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[brotherjerry]

So Jason...you were not asking for opinions or what people really thought of their walk...you wanted to lure people into the question so you can tell them they are wrong?

And I have no problem using levity when it comes to what God said. Paul used it often and was incredibly sarcastic.

And yeah...your question was asked that could lead to boasting...no matter how you slice it. You could get answers like "I go to church every time the door is open", "I wear a cross around my neck","my family says grace every time we eat, even if it is a stick of gum", "I have led 50 people to Christ"....etc...etc... Anytime someone puts up "what they have accomplished" in the name of Christ there can be boasting... "Have we not cast out demons in your name?"..ring any bells?

And sorry...just living righteously....what does that mean? Are you going to tell me I am not righteous? Everything the Bible sets up the Christian for is to reproduce him or herself in others. IF I am in Christ, then when I reproduce myself the next person is also in Christ. No less than two times Paul told the church at Corinthians to imitate him (1 Corinthians 4:16,11:1). Hebrews 13:7 exhorts us to consider those that spoke the word of God to us, consider the result of their conduct (our salvation), imitate their faith. 3 John 1:11 we are to imitate what is good because what is good is of God.

Everything in the Old Testament pointed to Christ. Christ taught the Disciples in order for them to go out into the world and replicate themselves to the unbelievers. To make followers of the unsaved. To teach them just as Christ taught them...replicate themselves. For if I am in Christ, and I teach you...then you too are in Christ, not because I taught you, but by reproducing myself I am leading people to Christ...so they will be like me Spiritually. And then I continue to teach them as Paul and the Apostles continued to communicate with the churches to teach them and continue to lead them further in their walk...to be imitators of themselves so that they too can go out and lead people to Christ.

The problem with our churches today is they stop at "being righteous" and miss the entire boat. Being righteous means to get out and tell people about Christ. It is not "not cussing","not drinking","not looking at inappropriate contentography"...basically a life of sitting in their home, going to church and thinking that if they tell people about their church they are doing their part. It is not about the church...it is about Christ. Being righteous is and always has been about glorifying God by telling people about Him. Living a "righteous life" of not doing all those things, comes naturally if you are spending your time spreading the Gospel...who the heck has time for drinking, inappropriate contentography, or anything else if they are spending their time talking about Jesus?

 

[com7fy8]

Part of our assurance that we are God's children is that we are getting God's correction >

Hebrews 12:8 says >

"But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8)

So - - - if we are children of God, we are experiencing how our Father is correcting us. And this is our example to others, who can see how we are becoming corrected by God, and not only by our own standards, but better. We are not only trying to judge and correct others, but we humble our own selves to God, seeking for His correction.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So Jason...you were not asking for opinions or what people really thought of their walk...you wanted to lure people into the question so you can tell them they are wrong?

To get them to repent of their sins, ... yes.
It's called correction (According to God's Word).
For what do you think Paul was saying in 2 Corinthians 13:5?
For God's Word says we can correct others (2 Timothy 3:16).
The Bible says we are not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but we are to reprove them (Ephesians 5:11).

And I have no problem using levity when it comes to what God said. Paul used it often and was incredibly sarcastic.

Not about God's Word. Please show me where in the Bible where Jesus and or his followers make light of God's Word or poke fun at it? There is a difference in God's Word speaking to others in a sarcastic way versus a believer making light of what God's Word says. Your joke was making light of the question that is based upon 2 Corinthians 13:5.

And yeah...your question was asked that could lead to boasting...no matter how you slice it.

No. Not to the true man of God who understands that any good work that is done in their life comes from God. As I said to you before, Jesus said, "without me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).

You could get answers like "I go to church every time the door is open",

Again, nowhere is a true believer to boast about their own good works. Such a thing does not exist for the true believer. God ultimately does the good work within a believer. While we are to let our light (i.e. God's light) shine before men, we are also told to pray and give to the poor in secret before just the Father's eyes (Matthew 6:4, and Matthew 6:6). Also, the church is not a building but it is a people. While there is nothing wrong with having fellowship within a church per say, true fellowship as described in the New Testament was within people's homes and it was a gathering together with other brothers and sisters over having the Lord's supper. It was not a gathering of believers and unbelievers.

"I wear a cross around my neck",

While wearing a cross can remind somebody of their Savior, others think that there is power in possessing such an item (Which would be wrong). So I do not encourage people to wear crosses. One's faith is not determined by wearing a piece of metal around their neck. One's faith is determined to be true or not if they have God living within their life or not (Whereby the fruits of the Lord will be evident).

"my family says grace every time we eat, even if it is a stick of gum",

So you do not believe you should obey 1 Thessalonians 5:18?

"In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you."
(1 Thessalonians 5:18).

Paul says that what he has written to us should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37).

"I have led 50 people to Christ"....etc...etc...

A true man of God will not boast in such a way. He realizes that it is God that gives the increase for a plant to truly grow.

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase." (1 Corinthians 3:6).

For planting and watering does not mean you are giving the increase.

Anytime someone puts up "what they have accomplished" in the name of Christ there can be boasting... "

This is only true if they do not understand that it is God who ultimately does the good work in them. Yes, I have encountered Works Salvationists before and I have argued with them that they are saved by their own efforts. I believe in Relationship-ism and not Works Salvationism. There is a difference.

Have we not cast out demons in your name?"..ring any bells?

Yes, I have heard an OSAS proponent boast once in telling me they had cast out demons.
Is that the bench mark of salvation? Of course not.
But if you were to keep reading in Matthew 7, Jesus says we will know false prophets by their fruit (i.e. deeds).
Jesus says, "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21).

What is the will of the Father or the will of God?

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification," (1 Thessalonians 4:3) (King James).
"God's will is for you to be holy" (1 Thessalonians 4:3) (New Living Translation).

"Be ye holy; for I am holy" (1 Peter 1:16).

In Matthew 7 when Jesus tells those false believers to depart from him, we know this is in context about doing what Jesus says. How so?

Just read these verses here,

24 "Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
(Matthew 7:24-27).​

Anyways, Jesus said to the false believer to depart from him because they worked iniquity. Iniquity is sin (See Psalm 51:2).

And sorry...just living righteously....what does that mean? Are you going to tell me I am not righteous? Everything the Bible sets up the Christian for is to reproduce him or herself in others. IF I am in Christ, then when I reproduce myself the next person is also in Christ. No less than two times Paul told the church at Corinthians to imitate him (1 Corinthians 4:16,11:1).

This is a very ambigous statement you have made. Are you saying you are righteous even if you are not living righteously?
The Bible says,

"Let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7).

Hebrews 13:7 exhorts us to consider those that spoke the word of God to us, consider the result of their conduct (our salvation), imitate their faith. 3 John 1:11 we are to imitate what is good because what is good is of God.

So you believe our conduct as believers is a reflection of our salvation?
I agree.

14 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he who has called you is holy, so be holy in all manner of conduct;
16 Because it is written, You will be holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:14-16).​

Everything in the Old Testament pointed to Christ. Christ taught the Disciples in order for them to go out into the world and replicate themselves to the unbelievers. To make followers of the unsaved. To teach them just as Christ taught them...replicate themselves. For if I am in Christ, and I teach you...then you too are in Christ, not because I taught you, but by reproducing myself I am leading people to Christ...so they will be like me Spiritually. And then I continue to teach them as Paul and the Apostles continued to communicate with the churches to teach them and continue to lead them further in their walk...to be imitators of themselves so that they too can go out and lead people to Christ.

I do not disagree with what you said here. This is the point I am getting at. The key question is do you really believe that? Or do you believe that a believer can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved?

The problem with our churches today is they stop at "being righteous" and miss the entire boat. Being righteous means to get out and tell people about Christ. It is not "not cussing","not drinking","not looking at inappropriate contentography"...basically a life of sitting in their home, going to church and thinking that if they tell people about their church they are doing their part. It is not about the church...it is about Christ. Being righteous is and always has been about glorifying God by telling people about Him. Living a "righteous life" of not doing all those things, comes naturally if you are spending your time spreading the Gospel...who the heck has time for drinking, inappropriate contentography, or anything else if they are spending their time talking about Jesus?

I agree that we are to get out there and tell people about Jesus (Whereby it will leave less room for them to partake of any sin they may struggle with). But you also have to realize that there are those who preach an Antinomian gospel whereby a believer can sin and still be saved, too. For there are preachers who preach a prosperity gospel or a gospel that allows them to get away with sexual sin. There are preachers out there who are giving people a license to sin. Practicing righteousness is not wrong. God calls us unto righteousness and holiness. So if a believer is striving to live holy he will preach the gospel at every chance he gets because it is commanded of Him by the Lord.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Part of our assurance that we are God's children is that we are getting God's correction >

Hebrews 12:8 says >

"But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8)

So - - - if we are children of God, we are experiencing how our Father is correcting us. And this is our example to others, who can see how we are becoming corrected by God, and not only by our own standards, but better. We are not only trying to judge and correct others, but we humble our own selves to God, seeking for His correction.

I agree.

1 Corinthians 11:31 says,
"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."

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[brotherjerry]

Your joke was making light of the question that is based upon 2 Corinthians 13:5.

Oh did you refer to 2 Corinthians in your first post? Nope...I went back and checked it out...no quote there. So I was poking fun at your question.

To get them to repent of their sins, ... yes.

So you come to a Christian forum that is populated with predominately Christian people on the forum. And you asked your question with the intent to lure them in so you can tell them they are wrong....so you are trying to pick an argument?

For God's Word says we can correct others

Not that I disagree with your statement...where in 2 Timothy 3:16 does it say we correct others...it doesn't...This verse on it's own does not say we should correct others.

No. Not to the true man of God who understands that any good work that is done in their life comes from God. As I said to you before, Jesus said, "without me you can do nothing.

But all you did was toss out your question on a Christian forum. I merely pointed out that your question could lead to boasting. It is like a temptation to stumble for those who may be weaker in faith. And as already mentioned your intent was to lure in the weak in faith and club them over the head with a baseball bat of what you want to call "correction".

This is only true if they do not understand that it is God who ultimately does the good work in them. Yes, I have encountered Works Salvationists before and I have argued with them that they are saved by their own efforts. I believe in Relationship-ism and not Works Salvationism. There is a difference.

No disagreement there. But you ask a vague question that is open to many different answers. Some off the cuff examples I mentioned. But you ask the vague question in hopes to lure in someone that will answer it in just a certain way so that you can basically just say "You are wrong"

This is a very ambigous statement you have made

Ambiguous statement I made?...that is the whole point..your intitial question was very ambiguous...it is the entire reason for this discussion between you and I.
I am also not seeing how you think what I said was ambiguous....you started it off with "The evidence that one has that God is living within them is if one is actually living righteously" (post #12). That is why I asked you what you meant by "living righteously" who defines that....you asked originally for evidence that you know God....and your answer is "living righteously" How is that evidence for me or for anyone else? What are you going to say is "living righteously", and how does it manifest into evidence?

See you have a problem in your question because ultimately the evidence is that which is seen, and that which is seen is works. So you are asking what works have you done that shows you know God. Which is why your overly ambiguous trap question is bogus to start with.

The key question is do you really believe that? Or do you believe that a believer can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved?

And see now you are changing up the question, because a fellowship with God is different than knowing God. Satan knows God but has no real fellowship with Him.

But to answer your rabbit hole question...The Bible teaches that a person who is saved can never be out of fellowship with God.

But you also have to realize that there are those who preach an Antinomian gospel whereby a believer can sin and still be saved, too.

Aspects of this are absolutely true... Salvation is by Faith and divine grace alone. A saved person is not "bound" to follow the Law of Moses for salvation, but instead is obedient to the Law of Moses because of salvation.
There are 15 million threads already on this forum debating eternal security vs conditional security. There is no need to start another discussion on the same thing. IF that was your intent with the thread then consider the conversation done.
Let it be stated here as well though that people that believe in eternal security for the most part do not believe they have a license to sin. That is a false statement based on no facts just wishful thinking by the opponents of the doctrine....the old political addage of can't win on the facts then start obfuscating and throwing mud works.

For there are preachers who preach a prosperity gospel or a gospel that allows them to get away with sexual sin. There are preachers out there who are giving people a license to sin.

No disagreement here. There are many wolves in sheeps clothing out there...the TV is filled with them. Faith healers, snake handlers, and that guy with the perfect teeth All of them preaching a different gospel just as Christ warned us would happen. Thankfully God has preserved His word so that we can hold things up to the truth of the Scripture to see if what is spoken is true.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Oh did you refer to 2 Corinthians in your first post? Nope...I went back and checked it out...no quote there. So I was poking fun at your question.

First, you said,

"And I have no problem using levity when it comes to what God said. Paul used it often and was incredibly sarcastic."​

God's Word should not be taken lightly. Now, you are acting like that this is not the case.

Second, the question I asked in the Original Post is clearly recognizable to believers that it is based on Scripture and your poking fun at it does not change that fact (Regardless of whether you are aware that the question is based on Scripture or not). In either case, you should know now that the question is now based on 2 Corinthians 13:5 (By which you should show more respect to the question asked).

So you come to a Christian forum that is populated with predominately Christian people on the forum. And you asked your question with the intent to lure them in so you can tell them they are wrong....so you are trying to pick an argument?

The argument is to lead them to the truth whereby they will repent of their wrong thinking. Paul says, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5).

Not that I disagree with your statement...where in 2 Timothy 3:16 does it say we correct others...it doesn't...This verse on it's own does not say we should correct others.

And that's because you have to keep reading so as to get the context.

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine"
(2 Timothy 4:2).

But all you did was toss out your question on a Christian forum. I merely pointed out that your question could lead to boasting.

It is not a lead into boasting because it is based on 2 Corinthians 13:5.
I also explained to you that I do not believe in Works Salvationism and that we are not saved by our own effort alone.
I said we are saved by Relationship-sim and by the Work of God done in our life because He lives within us. But you keep ignoring that, though.

It is like a temptation to stumble for those who may be weaker in faith.

What kind of faith are we talking about here?
A sin and still be saved type faith?
A faith that says you will always be a slave to your sin?
Do you not know that Jesus said to TWO people to: "Go and sin no more."?
Does the command to: "Go and sin no more." Sound like we should keep on sinning?
Are you unaware that Titus 1:16 says,, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."?
Hebrews 12:14 says, "Follow ... holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

And as already mentioned your intent was to lure in the weak in faith and club them over the head with a baseball bat of what you want to call "correction".

What is an example of a weak faith? To understand that question we have to know what a healthy type of faith looks like versus a dead kind of faith. Scripture says, a dead faith is any kind of faith that does not have any works according to James (James 2:17). A strong faith is mentioned in the heroes of faith chapter (i.e. Hebrews 11). In that chapter we see faith defined as both a belief and as an action.

No disagreement there. But you ask a vague question that is open to many different answers. Some off the cuff examples I mentioned. But you ask the vague question in hopes to lure in someone that will answer it in just a certain way so that you can basically just say "You are wrong"

Are you a mind reader? My guess is that you are not God because your assumption is wrong. My intention of asking the question was so as to lead people to the truth that is in God's Word in regards to a proper understanding on Soteriology or Salvation. You may see something nefarious in that. But I don't. My question was in line with the truth of 2 Corinthians 13:5 which is to lead men to repentance.

Ambiguous statement I made?...that is the whole point..your intitial question was very ambiguous...it is the entire reason for this discussion between you and I.
I am also not seeing how you think what I said was ambiguous....you started it off with "The evidence that one has that God is living within them is if one is actually living righteously" (post #12). That is why I asked you what you meant by "living righteously" who defines that....you asked originally for evidence that you know God....and your answer is "living righteously" How is that evidence for me or for anyone else? What are you going to say is "living righteously", and how does it manifest into evidence?

So you don't think the fruit of the Spirit in a believer's life is not evidence that they know God and they are saved?
That is what I mean by them living righteously. Living righteously is allowing the righteous acts of God to flow thru your life. This is actual righteous acts or deeds that people will be able to see in your life. That is what living righteously means.
Again, read 1 John 3:7.

See you have a problem in your question because ultimately the evidence is that which is seen, and that which is seen is works. So you are asking what works have you done that shows you know God. Which is why your overly ambiguous trap question is bogus to start with.

And what verse in Scripture shows that this statement is true?

And see now you are changing up the question, because a fellowship with God is different than knowing God. Satan knows God but has no real fellowship with Him.

Now you are splitting hairs. When the Bible says that a believer knows God like in 1 John 2:3-4, it is talking about fellowship and not in some casual awareness like being aware of someone's existence.

But to answer your rabbit hole question...The Bible teaches that a person who is saved can never be out of fellowship with God.

Interesting. This is a new one for me. Most Eternal Security proponents I have encountered over the years say that a believer can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved (of which we know is a violation of Scripture that they ignore). Okay, let me ask you a new question now. Do you believe a saint can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved like murder, hate, adultery, theft, and drunkeness, etc.?

Aspects of this are absolutely true... Salvation is by Faith and divine grace alone. A saved person is not "bound" to follow the Law of Moses for salvation, but instead is obedient to the Law of Moses because of salvation.

Nowhere did I mention how we are to obey the Law of Moses. The Old Law was fulfilled by Jesus Christ upon the cross when He died. It's why the Temple veil was torn from top to bottom. But that does not mean there is no more Law of any kind under the New Covenant or New Testament, though. Scriptures says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). Meaning, God Laws are still in existence; And the believer today is supposed to obey the Laws under the New Testament and not the Old Testament. For even the moral laws in the Old Covenant had death penalties attached to them (Which is not the case for the moral laws in the New Covenant).

There are 15 million threads already on this forum debating eternal security vs conditional security. There is no need to start another discussion on the same thing.

Did you ever think as to the reason why many of us here are discussing this topic?
Did you ever think we are creating so many threads on this topic because we care about the souls of men and we want them to see the truth?

IF that was your intent with the thread then consider the conversation done.

I thought the question is fairly obvious that it is a refutation of Eternal Security. If you are just getting it now, then by all means, you are free to leave if you are not up for the debate.

Let it be stated here as well though that people that believe in eternal security for the most part do not believe they have a license to sin.

The only way an Eternal Security Proponent does not believe they have a license to sin is if:

(a) They must live righteously in order to be a true born again Christian.
(b) They believe they can overcome sin in this life.

But most Eternal Security Proponents do not believe that, though. They say they will always sin at some point in the future - which means they are agreeing with sin (Which is a license to sin).

That is a false statement based on no facts just wishful thinking by the opponents of the doctrine....the old political addage of can't win on the facts then start obfuscating and throwing mud works.

I can provided lots of Scripture that refutes Eternal Security. It's all over the Bible on almost every page. There are hundreds of verses.

No disagreement here. There are many wolves in sheeps clothing out there...the TV is filled with them. Faith healers, snake handlers, and that guy with the perfect teeth

And how are they different than those who say they will always be a slave to their sin?
Is that still not a sin and still be saved gospel like the above mentioned false gospels?
For it does not matter if you say that you will sin less and less as a believer the rest of your life.
Just admitting that you will do one sin in the future is essentially saying that one is condoning sin (Of which God cannot agree with).
For if a murderer says he will murder at some point in the future only once, does that mean he is no longer a murderer?
For God calls us to be holy as He is holy. Can a person be holy and still be in sin or agree with sinning in the future?

All of them preaching a different gospel just as Christ warned us would happen. Thankfully God has preserved His word so that we can hold things up to the truth of the Scripture to see if what is spoken is true.

Praise God that we do have Scripture to see those who preach a false gospel and a false Christ indeed. But please be aware that there will be many who will be surprised that they thought they were on Christ's side but Jesus told them to depart from Him because they worked iniquity.

Iniquity is sin.

And Jesus said not everyone who says unto me Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of the Father.
(Matthew 7:21).

What is the will of the Father or what is the will of God?

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification"
(1 Thessalonians 4:3).
(King James).

"God's will is for you to be holy."
(1 Thessalonians 4:3).
(New Living Translation).

For it is written,

"Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:16).

"Follow ... holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Hebrews 12:14).


....

 

[ZacharyB]

And I have no problem using levity when it comes to what God said.
Paul used it often and was incredibly sarcastic.

Truly, these are the most intuitive words from you that I've witnessed.
Be honest now ...
Did you come to this conclusion about Paul's writings through something I've said?
It will bless me, if you say, "Yes".

Might as well share my most recent exposition of this, which was 2 hours ago:
"But we are not of those who draw back to perdition,
but of those who believe to the saving of the soul." (Hebrews 10:39)
I'll leave it up to each individual to "see" what's going on here!
Whoever wrote this was being much more than sarcastic
... he was being truly sincerely hopeful.
Yes, this is just a simple example of the Lord's normal mode of writing to His churches,
which was filled with encouragements, edifications, exhortations, etc.
along with His warnings (which often were quite hidden in the mass of words).

 

[brotherjerry]

You know what Jason...I am going to drop the whole issue of you asking a very ambiguous question and me pointing that out to you part of this conversation...I feel it a pointless endeavor to continue down that path to point out your error there.

By weak faith I refer to those that are drinking milk and have not moved onto eating meat. Those that are new in their walk with the Lord, those that do not spend time learning their Bible and why they believe what they believe.

So you don't think the fruit of the Spirit in a believer's life is not evidence that they know God and they are saved?
That is what I mean by them living righteously. Living righteously is allowing the righteous acts of God to flow thru your life. This is actual righteous acts or deeds that people will be able to see in your life. That is what living righteously means.

What is the fruit? You asked for evidence....evidence is something that can be seen, heard, felt, etc. It is not a good feeling inside. And what is a righteous act? How is it that the unsaved person will recognize what you do as a rigtheous act vs someone who does not know God doing the same thing? What differentiates your act from the act of an unbeliever?

It is that which differentiates the answers you were expecting and the answer I provided. Sure my life has good deeds...I could list many different "works" that God has led me to do. I could go on and on about things God has done through me for other people on a material worldly level. But that is only evidence that I am a good person....and we are to be that...make no mistake we are to be the best people around...people should see a Christian and want to be just like them because of how good they are. But when you strip away the deeds that only say we are good person, you see that there is one thing which we are to do, that no one else can, and it is something that is better than all the money we could ever give, all the good deeds we could ever do. And that is that we lead someone to Christ.

Soooo many Christians stop at just doing good deeds. You cited 2 Timothy earlier...And you focused on the correction part. And that is sometimes needed, but you ignored the other parts, the teaching, the training for righteousness. And the purpose is so that we can be adequate and equipped for every work. So put this hypothetical out there...an elderly widow needs to have a wheelchair ramp built off the front of her house. You and the men of your church get to help out. Where in the Bible does it give you the carpentry skills? Tell you how to build a ramp? 2 Timothy says all Scripture is so that you may be equipped for every good work. Your good deed does not end with you finishing the ramp, the good deed ends when you give God the glory before that elderly woman and talk to her about Jesus.

My answer was just that. Reproducing myself in others. And as it has also been explained that was life changing events. We should never stop at just doing good deeds. Every good deed God puts before us, is an opportunity to give Him the glory and to spread the Word. You made a comment about wearing a cross. See I am the opposite, in that I have no problem with people wearing crosses. Many conversations have started because people saw the cross I wore and commented on it. At which time I knew there was about to be a conversation about Jesus. So outward expressions of things commonly identified as Christian is not wrong. I do agree that if a person feels there is power in the object, or their faith comes from it...then that is wrong. But I do not encounter many like that....I freely admit that could just be me and demographics of where I live.

Jason all things aside I do believe we are the same side of the coin here. I simply thought your questioning was ambiguous and vague and left open the door for people to answer in a manner that would seem like boasting, were actually boasting, or simply were confused. And it appeared you were ready to pounce on any who fell into that trap, innocently or not.