James says faith without works is dead.

[Thursday]

I believe what Paul said:
Ephesians 2:8-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Paul is speaking of works of the law, not of obedience to Jesus.

Paul also said:

Romans 2
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Phil 3
10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

 

[Albion]

I know. Unfortunately, that is contradicted by the teachings of Jesus and the other NT writers.

Others have that same misconception.

Do you believe a person will be saved if he believes in Jesus but consistently disobeys his teachings without ever repenting?

I believe that Saving Faith changes a person. It doesn't prevent him from ever committing a sin, but it does necessarily make him dedicated to living and behaving as Christ taught.

 

[Albion]

I believe what Paul said:
Ephesians 2:8-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

That would be essentially the same as what I wrote, wouldn't it?

 

[Sophrosyne]

How can anyone know? Paul said that even he didn't know.

We must press on for the prize with hope and confidence.

Jesus said we must pick up our cross and follow, not pick up our cross, put it down and take a nap.

Do you believe Paul when he said this:
Ephesians 2:8-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and a]">[a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Thursday]

Others have that same misconception.


I believe that Saving Faith changes a person. It doesn't prevent him from ever committing a sin, but it does necessarily make him dedicated to living and behaving as Christ taught.

You aren't answering the question.

Do you believe a person who believes in Christ yet persistently disobeys the teachings of Jesus without repentance will go to heaven?

Jesus tells us the answer here:

Luke 12:47
And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.

 

[Thursday]

Do you believe Paul when he said this:
Ephesians 2:8-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and a]">[a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Paul is speaking of works of the law, not of obedience to Jesus.

Paul also said:

Romans 2
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Phil 3
10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

 

[Sophrosyne]

That would be essentially the same as what I wrote, wouldn't it?

No, it is more than that it puts what James wrote in its place... read it very carefully with this in mind:
1)When does Paul equate salvation 2) Are works part of salvation or related to it.

 

[Albion]

You aren't answering the question.

Do you believe a person who believes in Christ yet persistently disobeys the teachings of Jesus without repentance will go to heaven?

I would guess that such a person is not among the saved, that's right.

So, if that's what you've been driving towards, what have you proved that hasn't already been explained here???

 

[Sophrosyne]

Paul is speaking of works of the law, not of obedience to Jesus.

Paul also said:

Romans 2
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Phil 3
10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

You didn't read his words carefully..tell me does Paul say we "will be" saved or we "have been" saved?

Ephesians 2:8-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Thursday]

I would guess that such a person is not among the saved, that's right.

So their faith didn't save them because they were disobedient.

That's the point. We must respond to God's grace in order to be saved.

 

[Thursday]

You didn't read his words carefully..tell me does Paul say we "will be" saved or we "have been" saved?

Ephesians 2:8-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and a]">[a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Yes I did. You are ignoring the passages I posted because they prove you to be mistaken.

Grace is a gift. Salvation is for those who accept this free gift and follow Jesus.

You confuse the following of the Jewish Law with obedience to Jesus:

1 Cor 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commandments is what matters.

 

[Albion]

So their faith didn't save them because they were disobedient.

They didn't have Faith.

That's the point.

On the contrary, you missed the point entirely. If you don't have Faith you won't be saved. If you have the Faith, you will not respond to it like a person who doesn't have Saving Faith. You might be CLAIMING to be a believer, to have Faith, but if your life shows no signs of repentance or a changed lifestyle, it's a pretty good bet that you are only talking but have not actually been saved. THAT IS EXACTLY what James is addressing in his Epistle.

 

[Thursday]

They didn't have Faith.


On the contrary, you missed the point entirely. If you don't have Faith you won't be saved. If you have the Faith, you will not respond to it like a person who doesn't have Saving Faith. You might be CLAIMING to be a believer, to have Faith, but if your life shows no signs of repentance or a changed lifestyle, it's a pretty good bet that you are only talking but have not actually been saved. THAT IS EXACTLY what James is addressing in his Epistle.

Then why did James warn us that faith without works is dead?

Clearly it is possible to have faith without works.

Note that in Matt 25 the difference between the sheep and the goats is their actions, not their beliefs.

 

[Albion]

Then why did James warn us that faith without works is dead?

He was warning about the situation I described in my previous post. If you read the entire Epistle and not just a verse here or there, this is quite evident.

Clearly it is possible to have faith without works.

No, it is not. I will say that you have put your finger on a key point in all of this, however. Is it possible to have faith without there being works. Well, in one sense of the word, yes. We say that we have faith that the Red Sox will win the pennant next year, for instance. That's "faith" in one sense of the word. It means having confidence.

But theologically speaking, "Faith" means a relationship between Man and God by which his righteousness and his sacrifice for sin is appropriated by us. If that is present--if we have Faith in this sense--we are saved. If we are, we will do good works.

But we do not gain favor with God toward salvation by piling up good deeds like some Boy Scout earning merit badges. That is the Roman Catholic view of that matter, however.

Does this help?

 

[Thursday]

He was warning about the situation I described in my previous post. If you read the entire Epistle and not just a verse here or there, this is quite evident.


No, it is not. I will say that you have put your finger on a key point in all of this, however. Is it possible to have faith without there being works. Well, in one sense of the word, yes. We say that we have faith that the Red Sox will win the pennant next year, for instance. That's "faith" in one sense of the word. It means having confidence.

But theologically speaking, "Faith" means a relationship between Man and God by which his righteousness and his sacrifice for sin is appropriated by us. If that is present--if we have Faith in this sense--we are saved. If we are, we will do good works.

But we do not gain favor with God toward salvation by piling up good deeds like some Boy Scout earning merit badges. That is the Roman Catholic view of that matter, however.

Does this help?

You are repeating the traditions of men.

That is not what the bible says.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Then why did James warn us that faith without works is dead?

Clearly it is possible to have faith without works.

Note that in Matt 25 the difference between the sheep and the goats is their actions, not their beliefs.

Is "dead" faith equal to "no faith"? No, if you read the words slowly you will realize that James equates people having faith to begin with and without works their faith is "dead". I think a better way of wording it would be those who do not do works aren't putting their faith to work. In life people used to call those who didn't work.. "deadbeats" and it didn't mean that they were actually dead but essentially they didn't work.

 

[Thursday]

Is "dead" faith equal to "no faith"? No, if you read the words slowly you will realize that James equates people having faith to begin with and without works their faith is "dead". I think a better way of wording it would be those who do not do works aren't putting their faith to work. In life people used to call those who didn't work.. "deadbeats" and it didn't mean that they were actually dead but essentially they didn't work.

You can parse the words if you like, but it is clear that James is telling us that we must put our faith into action in order to be saved.

 

[Albion]

You are repeating the traditions of men.

That is not what the bible says.

Oh, brother.

All this discussion...and that's all you can say?

I'll take it as meaning I made my point pretty well. Sophrosyne did, too, and left you to make the same kind of non-response, I notice.




.

 

[nobdysfool]

You are rationalizing.

Five points Calvinists believe that our actions have no impact on our salvation. Look it up if you don't believe me.

That is not true. Salvation is not based on what we do, but what He has done. Our actions do not contribute to our salvation. Those who are saved will act and do according to their new heart and saved soul, but they are not saved by what they do. Their actions give evidence that they are saved, but their actions do not save them.

 

[Thursday]

That is not true. Salvation is not based on what we do, but what He has done. Our actions do not contribute to our salvation. Those who are saved will act and do according to their new heart and saved soul, but they are not saved by what they do. Their actions give evidence that they are saved, but their actions do not save them.

You just repeated what I posted.

You agree that our actions have no impact on our salvation. That contradicts the bible.