Daniel 12:1

[BABerean2]

"Since the 70th week ended about 2,000 years ago, it cannot be a future event."

It is a future event because immediately after it Christ's second coming happens which means all those millions in heaven would be resurrected to immortality and be reigning with Christ on the Earth. They aren't here, Christ hasn't returned, so the trib hasn't happened.

This statement makes no sense.

I never said anything about the trib being completed.

I am well aware that Christ has not returned in His Second Coming, but how is this fact related to Daniel's 70th week?


Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

.

 

[ewq1938]

Most people believe the week finishes with the return of Christ.

This statement makes no sense.

I never said anything about the trib being completed.

I am well aware that Christ has not returned in His Second Coming, but how is this fact related to Daniel's 70th week?


Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

.

 

[BABerean2]

Most people believe the week finishes with the return of Christ.

Daniel 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

 

[iamlamad]

Most people believe the week finishes with the return of Christ.

In fact, this was the first thing God sent me to find: the entire 70th week "clearly marked." Those were HIS words: "clearly marked." Indeed, the week ends with the 7th seal, for the entire week is "marked" by the 7's. It begins with the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. Jesus does NOT return at the 7th vial, because He said it would be immediately AFTER. "After" means some period of time. John shows us that the marriage and supper will come AFTER the week ends with the 7th vial, but BEFORE He comes to earth.

 

[BABerean2]

In fact, this was the first thing God sent me to find: the entire 70th week "clearly marked." Those were HIS words: "clearly marked." Indeed, the week ends with the 7th seal, for the entire week is "marked" by the 7's. It begins with the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. Jesus does NOT return at the 7th vial, because He said it would be immediately AFTER. "After" means some period of time. John shows us that the marriage and supper will come AFTER the week ends with the 7th vial, but BEFORE He comes to earth.

If that is what God sent you to find, you need to keep looking.
Daniel chapter 9 would be a good place to start, since it was brought to us by an angel of God.

It would also be helpful to know that the ancient Jewish lunar/solar calendar was based on a 7 year cycle.

Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Jesus Christ was anointed by His Father from heaven when His cousin John placed Him in the Jordan River.

Luk_3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

He made an end of sins through His sacrifice on the Cross.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The earthly ministry of Christ was 1/2 week long.
If I agree to paint your house "after" 69 days, it will not be painted until the 70th day or later.
He was cut off 1/2 week of years after He was anointed in the Jordan River, which was 1/2 week into the 70th week.
If the text had said He would be cut off "after" the 68th week it would be wrong.
If it said He would be cut off "after" the 70th week it would be wrong.
The Gospel was taken to the Jewish people for another 1/2 week through the Holy Spirit working in His disciples.
On the day Stephen was stoned, he reviewed the whole history of the Jewish people and told them they had killed the Messiah.
This ended the 70th week.
After this the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles.

Daniel 9:27


And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

(From the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Darby came here.)

Jesus Christ fulfilled the promise of the New Covenant given to Jeremiah and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (They broke the Old Covenant. It is now obsolete.)

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Jesus Christ clearly stated He would fulfill the New Blood Covenant found in Daniel 9:27.

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

God ripped the veil in the temple in half at the moment Jesus died on the Cross showing the end of animal sacrifice.

Mat_27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

What you will not find in Daniel chapter 9 is a "Gap" of almost 2,000 years, because it is not there.

Every last letter of Daniel chapter 9 was fulfilled by Christ and His disciples in the first century.

God is not going to have a do-over for the bloodline of Jacob, through a future 7 year time period, in which He goes back to an obsolete Sinai covenant.

If they are going to be saved, it will be through the New Blood Covenant of Christ.

They do not need a rebuilt temple, with renewed animal sacrifice under the Old Covenant.

They need to accept the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

 

[iamlamad]

If that is what God sent you to find, you need to keep looking.
Daniel chapter 9 would be a good place to start, since it was brought to us by an angel of God.

It would also be helpful to know that the ancient Jewish lunar/solar calendar was based on a 7 year cycle.


Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Jesus Christ was anointed by His Father from heaven when His cousin John placed Him in the Jordan River.

Luk_3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

He made an end of sins through His sacrifice on the Cross.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The earthly ministry of Christ was 1/2 week long.
If I agree to paint your house "after" 69 days, it will not be painted until the 70th day or later.
He was cut off 1/2 week of years after the was anointed in the Jordan River, which was 1/2 week into the 70th week.
If the text had said He would be cut off "after" the 68th week it would be wrong.
If it said He would be cut off "after" the 70th week it would be wrong.
The Gospel was taken to the Jewish people for another 1/2 week through the Holy Spirit working in His disciples.
On the day Stephen was stoned, he reviewed the whole history of the Jewish people and told them they had killed the Messiah.
This ended the 70th week.
After this the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles.

Daniel 9:27


And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

(From the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Darby came here.)

Jesus Christ fulfilled the promise of the New Covenant given to Jeremiah and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:


Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Jesus Christ clearly stated He would fulfill the New Blood Covenant.


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

God ripped the veil in the temple in half at the moment Jesus died on the Cross showing the end of animal sacrifice.


Mat_27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;


What you will not find in Daniel chapter 9 is a "Gap" of almost 2,000 years, because it is not there.

Every last letter of Daniel chapter 9 was fulfilled by Christ and His disciples in the first century.

God is not going to have a do-over for the bloodline of Jacob, through a future 7 year time period, in which He goes back to an obsolete Sinai covenant.

If they are going to be saved, it will be through the New Blood Covenant of Christ.

They do not need a rebuilt temple, with renewed animal sacrifice under the Old Covenant.

They need to accept the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.


Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

You would be right there with all those that hated Paul and his gospel - that he got by revelation knowledge. Perhaps you would have been one who was throwing stones.

 

[ebedmelech]

I'm saying his thousand year reign with a rod of iron does not begin until he returns. Also, Christ said Satan was coming to be the ruler of the world. That happened when Christ returned to heaven, and there was a war, and Satan was cast to the Earth. Satan is reigning the Earth until Christ returns and dethrones him.

Really? Have you read Psalm 2 and Hebrews 1?

He said no such thing.

Here's the passage again...Revelation 1:9:
9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

What did John say then?

That's called a misrepresentation since I said no such thing.

You're right...so let me rephrase...is Christ reigning right now?

You need to get far more exact and specific to discuss these things. We are talking about a certain future reign with a rod of iron over the nations of the world. THAT has not happened yet. Jesus is reigning in a far different way currently. Failure to understand the distinction means you simply don't understand the topic well enough.

You say it hasn't happened. Obviously you're denying Ephesians 1:20-23:
20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

That passage not only tells you Christ position RIGHT NOW...but it tells you God brought it about when He raised Jesus from the dead. ALL THINGS are in subjection to Jesus RIGHT NOW!

 

[ewq1938]

Really? Have you read Psalm 2 and Hebrews 1?

I've read the entire bible.

Here's the passage again...Revelation 1:9:
9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

What did John say then?

He didn't say what you are claiming:

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


There is a difference between tribulation and the certain time of tribulation Christ described in the gospels, and what John saw in the vision. John did not live through "the Tribulation".

You're right...so let me rephrase...is Christ reigning right now?

Yes. Is he reigning with a rod of iron over the nations with his resurrected saints? No.

You say it hasn't happened. Obviously you're denying Ephesians 1:20-23:

No, what you are doing is the same error you made with the word tribulation. You blur any mention of tribulation as being "the tribulation" and here you confuse reigning with a special time of reigning. I assure you making these simplistic errors will lead to very incorrect conclusions.

That passage not only tells you Christ position RIGHT NOW...but it tells you God brought it about when He raised Jesus from the dead. ALL THINGS are in subjection to Jesus RIGHT NOW!

Which is unrelated to the rod of iron reign which has not happened and when it does, it has a beginning and an ending.

 

[ebedmelech]

I've read the entire bible.

That's not the question. Psalm 2 was prophesied by David. Hebrews 1 makes it clear it was Jesus.

I've read the entire bible.
He didn't say what you are claiming:

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Really? John was right there when Jesus prophesied Matthew 24 & 25. Jesus told them "they will deliver you to tribulation", so I think I'll hold to what John said...rather than what you want to say. Check your church history because Peter and Paul are both dead, executed by Nero, the church is under serious persecution...and Nero has sent John to Patmos. The tribulation you think is future, was in full force.

There is a difference between tribulation and the certain time of tribulation Christ described in the gospels, and what John saw in the vision. John did not live through "the Tribulation".

Actually no. Revelation is the Olivet Discourse with fuller Revelation. This is why the Gospel of John omits the Olivet Discourse.

Yes. Is he reigning with a rod of iron over the nations with his resurrected saints? No.

Indeed He is. Where do you think Peter, Paul, Stephen, James, and others killed for the Gospel went? They're with Jesus along with every saint that has died. To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord.

 

[Numenorian]

That's not the question. Psalm 2 was prophesied by David. Hebrews 1 makes it clear it was Jesus.


Really? John was right there when Jesus prophesied Matthew 24 & 25. Jesus told them "they will deliver you to tribulation", so I think I'll hold to what John said...rather than what you want to say. Check your church history because Peter and Paul are both dead, executed by Nero, the church is under serious persecution...and Nero has sent John to Patmos. The tribulation you think is future, was in full force.
.




Actually no. Revelation is the Olivet Discourse with fuller Revelation. This is why the Gospel of John omits the Olivet Discourse.

Indeed He is. Where do you think Peter, Paul, Stephen, James, and others killed for the Gospel went? They're with Jesus along with every saint that has died. To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord.

 

[Numenorian]

I agree with a post trib rapture interpretation, but disagree that the Jews are now just one component of the Israel of God (the church). There are prophecies that refer to a physical land and people of the Jews which sit oddly with the church alone. So there remains a purpose for the physical Jewish people even if in Christ we are all equals regardless of race or gender, or economic class.

 

[Numenorian]

Agreed!

The following 4 events follow directly on the completion of Jacob's trouble, this ultimate tribulation, according to the prophets. The only way to say these have been fulfilled in the past is by arrogating vast tracts of prophecy, like the ones used below, which speak about the restoration of Israel, and ascribe them to the church by a process of spiritualization:

1) Israel is born again in a day AS A NATION - the Spirit is poured out.

“For the land of my people in which thorns and briars shall come up; Yea, for all the joyful houses and for the jubilant city. Because the palace has been abandoned, the populated city forsaken. Hill and watch-tower have become caves forever, A delight for wild donkeys, a pasture for flocks; Until the Spirit is poured out upon us from on high, And the wilderness becomes a fertile field, And the fertile field is considered as a forest. Then justice will dwell in the wilderness And righteousness will abide in the fertile field. And the work of righteousness will be peace, And the service of righteousness, quietness and confidence forever. Then my people will live in a peaceful habitation, And in secure dwellings and in undisturbed resting places;”. ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭32:13-18‬

“Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord G OD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:11-14‬

2) Israel will possess the everlasting righteousness of the New Covenant. Righteousness is the essential revelation, the one thing that Paul associates with the gospel (Rom. 1:16-17),and in those days, Israel will forsake their own righteousness for His.

“In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she will be called: the LORD is our righteousness.'”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭33:16‬

“"In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, 'The LORD our righteousness.'”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭23:6‬ ‭

3) The last Gentile adversary will be vanquished and the times of the Gentiles will THEN be over.

“And it will be in the day when the LORD gives you rest from your pain and turmoil and harsh service in which you have been enslaved, that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say, "How the oppressor has ceased, And how fury has ceased! "The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of rulers Which used to strike the peoples in fury with unceasing strokes, Which subdued the nations in anger with unrestrained persecution. "The whole earth is at rest and is quiet; They break forth into shouts of joy.” ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭14:3-7‬


“"Therefore prophesy, son of man, and say to Gog, 'Thus says the Lord G OD, "On that day when My people Israel are living securely, will you not know it? You will come from your place out of the remote parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great assembly and a mighty army; and you will come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog." 'Thus says the Lord G OD, "Are you the one of whom I spoke in former days through My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied in those days for many years that I would bring you against them? It will come about on that day, when Gog comes against the land of Israel," declares the Lord G OD, "that My fury will mount up in My anger. In My zeal and in My blazing wrath I declare that on that day there will surely be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all the creeping things that creep on the earth, and all the men who are on the face of the earth will shake at My presence; the mountains also will be thrown down, the steep pathways will collapse and every wall will fall to the ground. I will call for a sword against him on all My mountains," declares the Lord G OD. "Every man's sword will be against his brother. With pestilence and with blood I will enter into judgment with him; and I will rain on him and on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, a torrential rain, with hailstones, fire and brimstone. I will magnify Myself, sanctify Myself, and make Myself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that I am the LORD."'”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭38:14-23‬ ‭

Observe in the above passage, several of the 60+ times that this phraseology, "and then they will know that I am the Lord" is used. Have the nations, has Israel ever known the Lord in spirit and truth? The answer is an unequivocal "no", which underscores the ultimacy and futurity of these events.

“"For behold, in those days and at that time, When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; And they have divided up My land.

Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

The LORD roars from Zion And utters His voice from Jerusalem, And the heavens and the earth tremble. But the LORD is a refuge for His people And a stronghold to the sons of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy, And strangers will pass through it no more.” Joel‬ ‭3:1-2, 14, 16-17‬ ‭

4) Israel will finally and forever lie done in peace and safety.

“Then justice will dwell in the wilderness And righteousness will abide in the fertile field. And the work of righteousness will be peace, And the service of righteousness, quietness and confidence forever. Then my people will live in a peaceful habitation, And in secure dwellings and in undisturbed resting places;”. Isaiah‬ ‭32:16-18‬ ‭

 

[BABerean2]

You would be right there with all those that hated Paul and his gospel - that he got by revelation knowledge. Perhaps you would have been one who was throwing stones.

You are making it sound like the Gospel that Paul preached was different from the one preached by Peter and the other Apostles.
You are attempting to divide the Gospel and the Apostles.
There is only One Gospel.
The same Gospel was preached to those of the circumcision and those of the uncircumcision.

You sir, are the one who throws the "stones" of condemnation at those who do not agree with John Darby's doctrine. The original source of the doctrine is found in the link below.
It started with a book written by a Jesuit, under an assumed name.
It is a truth that can no longer be hidden from those sitting in the pews.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418
.

 

[iamlamad]

You are making it sound like the Gospel that Paul preached was different from the one preached by Peter and the other Apostles.
You are attempting to divide the Gospel and the Apostles.
There is only One Gospel.
The same Gospel was preached to those of the circumcision and those of the uncircumcision.

You sir, are the one who throws the "stones" of condemnation at those who do not agree with John Darby's doctrine. The original source of the doctrine is found in the link below.
It started with a book written by a Jesuit, under an assumed name.
It is a truth that can no longer be hidden from those sitting in the pews.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418
.

I guess you missed this verse:

Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

At that time Michael will appear. He is the great leader of the angels who guards the people. There will be a time of terrible suffering. Things will be worse than at any time since nations began. But at that time of suffering your people will be saved. Their names are written in the Book of Life.

Is Michael the prince of Israel only or does he fight for all Gods people?

When is "at that time"? There have been many bad times. Does this refer to the time of the tribulation for instance?

Is this a prophecy referring to the salvation of the Jews in the last days?

How do you understand this passage?

Scholars still tend to be quite divided on this but in general most scholars who interpret Daniel in the light of other ancient apocalypses/mythology and particularly the Dead Sea Scrolls tend to identify Michael with the "One like the Son of Man" as something of a demi-god in the same style as the Ugaritic El and Baal. I would tend to agree although I quite like the idea that the Danielic Son of Man may also appeal to the High Priest as he exists the Temple and appears before the congregation. From what we know of the ancient Mediterranean world the Temple tended to be viewed as the meeting place of heaven and earth, and from what we know of the Maccabees they attempted at conflating the priestly office with that of the king.

 

[mindlight]

Scholars still tend to be quite divided on this but in general most scholars who interpret Daniel in the light of other ancient apocalypses/mythology and particularly the Dead Sea Scrolls tend to identify Michael with the "One like the Son of Man" as something of a demi-god in the same style as the Ugaritic El and Baal. I would tend to agree although I quite like the idea that the Danielic Son of Man may also appeal to the High Priest as he exists the Temple and appears before the congregation. From what we know of the ancient Mediterranean world the Temple tended to be viewed as the meeting place of heaven and earth, and from what we know of the Maccabees they attempted at conflating the priestly office with that of the king.

I take the dating and historicity of Daniel quite literally. The apocalyptic genre by contrast is the fairytale response to a spiritual reality whose power these apocslyptic genre authors recognised but which they naively believed they could duplicate with pretty symbols of their own creation.

I remember reading an account of Alexander the Great being met by Jewish representatives who quoting Daniel told him his coming had been anticipated. Something they could not have done had the book not already been in existence.

 

[iamlamad]

I take the dating and historicity of Daniel quite literally. The apocalyptic genre by contrast is the fairytale response to a spiritual reality whose power these apocslyptic genre authors recognised but which they naively believed they could duplicate with pretty symbols of their own creation.

I remember reading an account of Alexander the Great being met by Jewish representatives who quoting Daniel told him his coming had been anticipated. Something they could not have done had the book not already been in existence.

AS the story is told, the Jewish priests had a dream that they were to meet Alexander dressed in their robes. Then Alexander told them HE had had a dream of meeting people dressed as they were, and in that dream God had told him he would be successful in defeating Darius. They sacrificed an animal to God for him, according to his dream.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I take the dating and historicity of Daniel quite literally. The apocalyptic genre by contrast is the fairytale response to a spiritual reality whose power these apocslyptic genre authors recognised but which they naively believed they could duplicate with pretty symbols of their own creation.

I remember reading an account of Alexander the Great being met by Jewish representatives who quoting Daniel told him his coming had been anticipated. Something they could not have done had the book not already been in existence.

I think you may be meaning the story Josephus records in his Jewish Antiquities 11:326-338, particularly 337 which states:

And when the book of Daniel was shown to him, in which he had declared that one of the Greeks would destroy the empire of the Persians, he believed himself to be the one indicated

The problem is that this is very much not history, it is a legend which Josephus recorded at the end of the first century CE. We know this because in the story Alexander the Macedon sees the high priest radiate, he then worships the high priest as some sort of divine mediator, and then he converts to Judaism. That didn't actually happen...

 

[Numenorian]

I take the dating and historicity of Daniel quite literally. The apocalyptic genre by contrast is the fairytale response to a spiritual reality whose power these apocslyptic genre authors recognised but which they naively believed they could duplicate with pretty symbols of their own creation.

I remember reading an account of Alexander the Great being met by Jewish representatives who quoting Daniel told him his coming had been anticipated. Something they could not have done had the book not already been in existence.

The most compelling reason for the authenticity and historicity of Daniel, and that his book constitutes prophecy is Jesus's reference to him in Matthew 24.

 

[ewq1938]

That's not the question. Psalm 2 was prophesied by David. Hebrews 1 makes it clear it was Jesus.

You aren't conveying why any of this is important in this discussion. Please cite the verses and show why they are important.

Really? John was right there when Jesus prophesied Matthew 24 & 25. Jesus told them "they will deliver you to tribulation", so I think I'll hold to what John said...rather than what you want to say. Check your church history because Peter and Paul are both dead, executed by Nero, the church is under serious persecution...and Nero has sent John to Patmos. The tribulation you think is future, was in full force.

Jesus was not saying they would live to see the tribulation and his second coming because they didn't. Whatever they experienced is either a shadow of what's coming or just normal tribulation a Christian faces in hostile environments.

Here is the main problem with preterism:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

None of the above took place yet the generation he was describing would see the trib and the second coming and the rapture. Guess what else happens with those events? The resurrection of all the dead in Christ which plainly is not a historical event in Ad 70 or any year.

Indeed He is. Where do you think Peter, Paul, Stephen, James, and others killed for the Gospel went? They're with Jesus along with every saint that has died. To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord.

I know. The point is there are different ways to reign and the only one that occurs during the Millennium is not a spiritual reign from heaven. It will be an Earthly reign with bodily resurrected saints and they will reign over the nations which are human beings that aren't eligible to be changed into immortal bodies like the living saints were at the return of Christ.