Spiritual manifestations at Pentecost

[jiminpa]

Did Corinthians 1 & 2 written for them or for you and me?

OK, so still no answer. I understand. Now you're just posting random sentences.

 

[Righttruth]

OK, so still no answer. I understand. Now you're just posting random sentences.

My question practically answers your questions!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Which verses say that?

All born again believers are members of the spirit body of Christ...
Just as we were once members of the spiritual body of Adam, now we have been born again into the spiritual body of Christ.


Galatians 2:20
(20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 2:10
(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Colossians 2:
(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
(13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

2 Corinthians 5:17
(17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

John 6:56
(56) He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

John 15:5
(5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

All the things that issue from "my" spirit are not really me... they are Him because "I", that is the Adam spirit born into this body some born 61 years ago, is dead and gone. The spirit that is now within me is the spirit of Christ. It is not a little man sitting on the throne of my old spirit. It is truly the same spirit of Jesus Christ that was raised from the dead on that bright and beautiful morning. I was raised up in Him. There is no difference between the spirit that now exists as "me" from the spirit that exists in Jesus. He is the head. I am a member of His resurrected spirit. There is no "old" spirit in there, left over from that former life. There is one spirit that lives in me. and that is the spirit of Christ. The Holy Spirit also dwells in me, but I am not the Holy Spirit. I am the spirit of Christ.
When "my" spirit speaks, it is not I that speaks it is the spirit of Christ that speaks in me.
When I "faith" it is the spirit of Christ "faithing" in me.
When I "love" it is the spirit of Christ that loves in me.
When I experience peace or joy... it is the spirit of Christ living in me as me.
There is no longer a me per se. It is the spirit of Christ.

 

[Biblicist]

Some Tongues facts:
1. Tongues have been around a long time before Christianity. Pagan religions and cults spoke in tongues as early as 600 BC. These were not Christian tongues, but they were tongues.

As I spent a lot of time over the past five years looking into this issue from within the best scholarly sources that are available, I have not come across any evidence of this so if you can provide any solid links then I would be most interested.

At this point of time, the scholars who address this particular field/subject have now dismissed any idea that the tongues of the Holy Spirit have been found in any non-Christian enviroment.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

As I spent a lot of time over the past five years looking into this issue from within the best scholarly sources that are available, I have not come across any evidence of this so if you can provide any solid links then I would be most interested.

At this point of time, the scholars who address this particular field/subject have now dismissed any idea that the tongues of the Holy Spirit have been found in any non-Christian enviroment.

You are correct... none of the these tongues are of the Holy Spirit.

May I suggest this book to assist in your study:

The Mechanics and Practice of Speaking in Tongues

A few random quotes:


“...the significance of the term 'glossolalia', or 'speaking in tongues', comes to the fore. 'The gift of tongues and of their interpretation was not peculiar to the Christian Church, but was a repetition in it of a phrase common in ancient religions. The very phrase glossais lalein, 'to speak with tongues,' was not invented by the New Testament writers, but borrowed from ordinary speech.”
Encyclopedia Britannica (1911), s.v, “Gift of Tongues,” by Fredrick C. Conybeare, 27:10.

“The Christian tradition of tongue speaking antedates the New Testament Apostles. Glossolalia had been practiced for many years along with other ecstatic phenomena by the prophets of the ancient religions of the Near East. Prophets and mystics of Assyria, Egypt, and Greece reportedly spoke in foreign tongues during states of ecstasy and uttered unintelligible phrases said to be revelations from the gods. The Hebrew prophets appear to have similarly engaged in ecstatic states and practiced glossolalia. So the practice was not unknown, in all probability, to the early Christian Apostles.”
E. Mansell Pattison “Behavioral Science Research On The Nature Of Glossolalia”, Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation, (September 1968)


“…among urban middle and upper-class churches, glossolalia is practiced as an isolated phenomenon by physicians, college professors, captains of industry, even psychologists, who sit in full composure and dignity while speaking in tongues!”
‘Behavioral Science Research On The Nature Of Glossolalia’ E. Mansell Pattison, M.D. Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation 20 (September 1968)


“…glossolalic speech tends to resemble the early speech qualities of young children prior to the organization of all the variables associated with adult language...”
“Indeed, many of the qualities of glossolalic speech are those found in the speech of young children... A comparison of his outline of children's speech and glossolalic speech is striking. On this basis, one may suggest that glossolalic speech appears to be a regression to an early mode of speech in which vocalization is used for purposes other than just the communication of rational thought.”
E. Mansell Pattison



Glossolalia is not language in the ordinary sense.... It is, rather, a willed and welcomed vocal event in which, in a context of attention to religious realities, the tongue operates within one's mood but apart from one's mind in a way comparable to the fantasy-languages of children.... Glossolalia is regularly both taught...and learned, and is in fact easy to do if one wants to.
(J.I. Packer, Churchman, Vol. 94, 1980, pages 108-109.)



Ernst Käsemann on Romans 8.
Since a recognizable feature of worship provides the most likely object of Paul’s reference to groaning, Käsemann identifies it with tongues…
Commentary on the Romans (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1980)

“...from a linguistic point of view, religiously inspired glossolalic utterances have the same general characteristics as those that are not religiously inspired.” In fact, glossolalia is a “human phenomenon, not limited to Christianity nor even to religious behavior.”
Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, Spittler, P. 340


"The practice of speaking in tongues in Christianity goes back all the way to the beginning of this religion (see "glossolalia and the supernatural" below). Several studies of religious glossolalia have shown that those who speak in tongues are deeply touched by the experience. Goodman (1972) reports a "before and after" phase in the lives of the tongue-speakers, with a clear, decisive "change" in-between. Kildahl (1975) notes that Christian glossolalics reported positive, and negative consequences, following their exercise of tongue-speaking (for example, an increase in personal happiness, a sense of greater personal power, a joyful and warm personal fellowship among tongue-speakers, dependency on the leader who introduced the person to tongue-speaking and divisiveness that polarizes the religious community).
Tongues is not confined to Christianity, however. In all ages, and all parts of the world, people have spoken in apparently unintelligible fashion (Eliade 1987). May (1956) describes the prevalence of tongue-speaking amongst the Hindus in India. The physical manifestations appear to be analogous to what happens in a Christian context, though the belief system connected with the experience is quite different.
Anthropologist G J Jennings (1968) carried out an ethnological study of glossolalia and observed this behavior amongst Tibetan monks, certain North American Indians, the Haida Indians of the Pacific Northwest, the Aborigines of Australia, the aboriginal peoples of the sub arctic regions of North America and Asia, the Curanderos of the Andes, the Dyaks of Borneo, the Chaco Indians of South America, shamans in the Sudan, Siberia and Greenland, and in various cults (Voodoo in Haiti, Zor in Ethiopia, Shango on the west coast of Africa, and the Shago in Trinidad).
I have heard anecdotal claims that tongue-speaking occurs in the New Age movement…
Auke Slotegraaf
http://www.psychohistorian.org/psychology/tongues.html


“Human infants engage in vocal communion with their mother and other prospective caregivers as soon as it becomes possible to do so. As the term is used here, ‘communion’ refers to a continuous state or feeling of connectedness owing to the existence of a communications link that is maintained largely by the vocalizations of infants and caregivers.”
John L. Locke University of Cambridge
“First Communion: The Emergence of Vocal Relationships”



Explaining glossolalic speech as divinely inspired has a long tradition. Motley (1967) points out that a tongue-speaker will usually assert that speech is divinely inspired and that his unknown tongue is a manifestation of the work of his God.
Tongue-speaking was known to Plato, who described its use by Greek and Roman oracles. The priests of Apollo, for example, engaged in prophetic glossolalia. Virgil wrote about a Roman Sibyl who spoke that way, in the Aeneid, book six.
Auke Slotegraaf
http://www.psychohistorian.org/psychology/tongues.html


We do know that this form of ecstatic speech in an unknown language is not peculiar to Christianity… or even to religious people. This same phenomena of speech is found among non-Christian religions, especially in Asia and Africa. This ecstatic speech is also found among atheists and agnostics.
Jeff Wehr http://www.hopeint.org/off/9611-04.htm



“… millions of Hindus speak in tongues, millions or New Agers speak in tongues, in the studies ALL of the tongue speaking, whether Hindus, the Voodoo people, and Pentecostal Christians, ALL of them are IDENTICAL. Both in speech patterns, type and display. This is a very important point, ALL of the tongue speaking, whether Hindu, voodoo or Pentecostal, they are all similar in speech patterns, type and their display. When audio recordings were done, then played back, it was next to impossible to distinguish the difference between Pentecostal tongues or the other tongue speakers (New age, voodoo, etc.)
Anthropologist G J Jennings (1968) carried out an ethnological study of glossolalia and observed this behavior amongst Tibetan monks, certain North American Indians, the Haida Indians of the Pacific Northwest, the Aborigines of Australia, the aboriginal peoples of the subarctic regions of North America and Asia, the Curanderos of the Andes, the Dyaks of Borneo, the Chaco Indians of South America, shamans in the Sudan, Siberia and Greenland, and in various cults (Voodoo in Haiti, Zor in Ethiopia, Shango on the west coast of Africa, and the Shago in Trinidad), as well as Pentecostal & Charismatic Christians.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-43068.html




The 1972 study by John P. Kildahl “The Psychology of Speaking in Tongues” concludes that:
“...from a linguistic point of view, religiously inspired glossolalic utterances have the same general characteristics as those that are not religiously inspired.” In fact, glossolalia is a “human phenomenon, not limited to Christianity nor even to religious behavior.”

“...glossolalia is practiced among the following non-Christian religions of the world; the Peyote cult among the North American Indians, the Haida Indians of the Pacific Northwest, Shamans in the Sudan, the Shango cult of the West Coast of Africa, the Shago cult in Trinidad, the Voodoo cult in Haiti, the Aborigines of South American and Australia, the aboriginal peoples of the subarctic regions of North America and Asia, the Shamans in Greenland, the Dyaks of Borneo, the Zor cult of Ethiopia, the Siberian shamans, the Chaco Indians of South America, the Curanderos of the Andes, the Kinka in the African Sudan, the Thonga shamans of Africa, and the Tibetan monks.
An article in the Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation entitled “An Ethnological Study of Glossolalia” by George J. Jennings, March 1968.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

"The practice of speaking in tongues in Christianity goes back all the way to the beginning of this religion (see "glossolalia and the supernatural" below). Several studies of religious glossolalia have shown that those who speak in tongues are deeply touched by the experience. Goodman (1972) reports a "before and after" phase in the lives of the tongue-speakers, with a clear, decisive "change" in-between. Kildahl (1975) notes that Christian glossolalics reported positive, and negative consequences, following their exercise of tongue-speaking (for example, an increase in personal happiness, a sense of greater personal power, a joyful and warm personal fellowship among tongue-speakers, dependency on the leader who introduced the person to tongue-speaking and divisiveness that polarizes the religious community).
Tongues is not confined to Christianity, however. In all ages, and all parts of the world, people have spoken in apparently unintelligible fashion (Eliade 1987). May (1956) describes the prevalence of tongue-speaking amongst the Hindus in India. The physical manifestations appear to be analogous to what happens in a Christian context, though the belief system connected with the experience is quite different.
Anthropologist G J Jennings (1968) carried out an ethnological study of glossolalia and observed this behavior amongst Tibetan monks, certain North American Indians, the Haida Indians of the Pacific Northwest, the Aborigines of Australia, the aboriginal peoples of the sub arctic regions of North America and Asia, the Curanderos of the Andes, the Dyaks of Borneo, the Chaco Indians of South America, shamans in the Sudan, Siberia and Greenland, and in various cults (Voodoo in Haiti, Zor in Ethiopia, Shango on the west coast of Africa, and the Shago in Trinidad).
I have heard anecdotal claims that tongue-speaking occurs in the New Age movement…
Auke Slotegraaf
http://www.psychohistorian.org/psychology/tongues.html

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I hope there is no repetition, if there is I apologize:

“Summary of Behavioral Science Research Data on Glossolalia:

1. Glossolalia is an ancient and widespread phenomenon of most societies, occurring most usually in connection with religion.”

“Behavioral Science Research on the Nature of Glossolalia”, Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation; September, 1968


“There are records of ecstatic speech and the like in Egypt in the eleventh century B.C. In the Hellenistic [Greek] world the prophetess of Delphi and the Sibylline priestess spoke in unknown or unintelligible speech. Moreover, the Dionysianrites contained a trancelike state as well as glossolalia. Many of the magicians and sorcerers of the first century world exhibit similar phenomena.”

G.R.Osborne, in the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, 1984, page 1100.


“Descriptions of ecstatic speech are common in the study of comparative religions.... The Delphic and Pythian religions of Greece understood ecstatic behavior and speech to be evidence of divine inspiration by Apollos.”

C.M. Robeck, Jr., in The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, 1988, page 872.


“...Glossolalia is a very ancient practice it is still practiced nowadays in many religions, especially those where one seeks contact with the spirit world (witchcraft/shamanism, voodoo) or a union mystical with the “All”. Mohamed, the founder of Islam, is probably the most famous of those who have practiced glossolalia.”

“Glossolalia (Tongues) and 1 Corinthians 14”

Bruno D. Granger

http://www.apologetique.org/en/rticles/neomontanism/BDG_glossolalia_en.htm


“Enthusiastic, ecstatic, mystic, possession, trance and other kindred phenomena have long been of interest to anthropologists. Cross-cultural reviews of ethnographic data on glossolalia in particular have been published by L.C. May, Jennings, M. Eliade, among others. The practice was known in ancient India and China, and ethnographies describe glossolalia in almost every area of the world... speaking-in-tongues is widespread and very ancient.”

E. Mansell Pattison

Behavioral Science Research On The Nature Of Glossolalia Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation, September 1968


Research conducted by Al Carlson at the University of California and Werner Cohn at the University of British Columbia indicate that anyone can produce glossolalic speech which sounded genuine even to believers.

Jimmy Jividen, “Glossolalia: from God or man?” p 163.



“This survey has shown that speaking-in-tongues is widespread and very ancient. Indeed, it is probably that as long as man has had divination, curing, sorcery, and propitiation of spirits, he has had glossolalia ... Whatever the explanation, it is clear that pagans as well as Christians have their glossolalia experiences.”

Jimmy Jividen, “Glossolalia: from God or man?” p 74,75


“It should be noted that, while there are Hellenistic parallels for tongues, there is also an OT basis. Thus the seers of 1 Sam. 10:5ff. seem to be robbed of their individuality, and their fervor finds expression in broken cries and unintelligible speech (cf. 2 Kgs. 9:11). Drunkards mock Isaiah’s babbling speech (Is. 28:10-11). The later literatare, e.g., Eth. En. 71:11, gives similar examples of ecstatic speech (not necessarily speaking in tongues).”

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume. Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985) Johannes Behm. Unabridged edition of the TDNT, Volume I, page 722.


“Glossolalia is an ancient and widespread phenomenon of most societies, occurring most usually in connection with religion.”

Behavioral Science Research on the Nature of Glossolalia Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation, September, 1968

 

[Righttruth]

All born again believers are members of the spirit body of Christ...
Just as we were once members of the spiritual body of Adam, now we have been born again into the spiritual body of Christ.


Galatians 2:20
(20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 2:10
(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Colossians 2:
(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
(13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

2 Corinthians 5:17
(17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

John 6:56
(56) He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

John 15:5
(5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Excellent verses.

All the things that issue from "my" spirit are not really me... they are Him because "I", that is the Adam spirit born into this body some born 61 years ago, is dead and gone. The spirit that is now within me is the spirit of Christ. It is not a little man sitting on the throne of my old spirit. It is truly the same spirit of Jesus Christ that was raised from the dead on that bright and beautiful morning. I was raised up in Him. There is no difference between the spirit that now exists as "me" from the spirit that exists in Jesus. He is the head. I am a member of His resurrected spirit. There is no "old" spirit in there, left over from that former life. There is one spirit that lives in me. and that is the spirit of Christ. The Holy Spirit also dwells in me, but I am not the Holy Spirit. I am the spirit of Christ.
When "my" spirit speaks, it is not I that speaks it is the spirit of Christ that speaks in me.

A tall claim! You speak as though you have become Jesus Christ! You forgot the struggle we need to do and run the race, and only those who endure till the end will be saved.

When I "faith" it is the spirit of Christ "faithing" in me.
When I "love" it is the spirit of Christ that loves in me.
When I experience peace or joy... it is the spirit of Christ living in me as me.
There is no longer a me per se. It is the spirit of Christ.

Jesus Christ never spoke in unknown tongues and never performed acrobatics to share His fellowship with the Father! There was no need for Him to urge us to become perfect as His heavenly Father if we became like Jesus Christ the moment we receive Him! And there was no need for Paul to advise to seek better gifts!

 

[Righttruth]

As I spent a lot of time over the past five years looking into this issue from within the best scholarly sources that are available, I have not come across any evidence of this so if you can provide any solid links then I would be most interested.

At this point of time, the scholars who address this particular field/subject have now dismissed any idea that the tongues of the Holy Spirit have been found in any non-Christian enviroment.

Hindus claim possession of their gods and speak and prophesy with a known tongue in a trance. Unknown tongue was local phenomenon only at Corinth that was unrelated to the Holy Spirit.

 

[jiminpa]

My question practically answers your questions!

No, it doesn't. You haven't answered my question at all. You can't answer my question without admitting that you are wrong, so you just refuse. But it doesn't change that you are wrong, and opposing the text of the scriptures, and I think you are fully aware of it, otherwise you would attempt to answer the question, and then have to face that your philosophy doesn't work.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It is fruitless to argue and debate. The best you can do is present scripture and know that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of those that read. Let Him have it!

 

[Righttruth]

No, it doesn't. You haven't answered my question at all. You can't answer my question without admitting that you are wrong, so you just refuse. But it doesn't change that you are wrong, and opposing the text of the scriptures, and I think you are fully aware of it, otherwise you would attempt to answer the question, and then have to face that your philosophy doesn't work.

You can't apply what Paul wrote to the babes of Corinth to the mature Christians now!

1 Corinthians 3:
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

 

[jiminpa]

You can't apply what Paul wrote to the babes of Corinth to the mature Christians now!

1 Corinthians 3:
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

...and yet this conversation is not even up to that level.

 

[jiminpa]

It is fruitless to argue and debate. The best you can do is present scripture and know that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of those that read. Let Him have it!

I think you are right.

 

[Biblicist]

You are correct... none of the these tongues are of the Holy Spirit.

As I have never come across the American Scientific Association I went across to their website where I found the 1968 article on glossolalia. I’m surprised that they are still hosting such an old document and even though this almost 50 year old article contained some interesting insights, their lack of first hand exposure to the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit was revealed with their remark that “Glossolalia was practiced by the early Mormons”. For anyone who wants to know if this is the position of the Mormons, it would only take us a few seconds on the Internet to discover that this is a fallacy but for those in the 60’s, as they would have to undertake a fair amount of work to discover if this was indeed their position then they can possibly be forgiven for relying on unsubstantiated hearsay.

You’ve provided a number of references to the ‘Oracles’ and ‘Delphic and Pythian religions of Greece’ but since the late 80’s where scholars have taken a more scientific and fresh approach to the early Greek religions in particular, this research has demonstrated that there is no connection between Biblical glossolalia and the trance-like and incoherent babbling of these supposed oracles.

Christopher Forbes produced a superb scholarly study titled Prophecy and Inspired Speech in Early Christianity and Its Hellenistic Environment (1995), his research which has essentially become the benchmark for this type of research demonstrated that there is little purpose with trying to connect Biblical glossolalia with that of the early Greek religions.

Prior to Forbes important work, David E. Aune released his Prophecy in Early Christianity and the Ancient Mediterranean World in 1983; even though his work was not as detailed as Forbes, his research showed the same as Forbes where Aune’s work was probably the beginning of the end for the association between the Greek religions and Biblical glossolalia.

At this point of time, Anthony C. Thiselton who would be the most renowned scholar when it comes to the Book of First Corinthians (the earlier superb works of Gordon Fee are not as detailed), where he also sums up the views of those who are scholars in the field of Greco-Roman religions where he says that most of the early material “often familiar from classes in school should not be taken as models for an understanding of First Corinthians”, pg. 971 (also pg. 980) The First Epistle to the Corinthians (2000).

Craig C. Keener is in the process of completing his massive four volume work on Acts: An Exegetical Commentary, where I am still waiting for his fourth volume to be released. On pages 809-811 (Vol. 1) he discounts the notion that there is a valid connection between Biblical glossolalia and the Greek religions. On page 810 he says that those who see such parallels with the Delphic religions that they have;

“misunderstood the nature of Delphic experience” and with regard to the Pythia that “Her supposed glossolalia is a “product of modern scholastic imagination”, an example of an early Christian idea now read back into the environment . Mystery cults offer no parallels to tongues”. . . Greco-Roman religion thus offers no sufficient explanation for “tongues” – as a phenomenon understood as inspired “languages” – such as we find in our earliest Christian sources. (pp. 810-811)​

As with fallacies such as the Mormons supposedly displaying Biblical glossolalia and with the various attempts to connect tongues with the Greek religions, whenever you encounter anyone who on a Sunday platform still tries to peddle these ideas, then take them by the hand, give them a smack and tell them to take a fresh look at the better research and try again (in love of course).

As for the various Indian and other pagan sects supposedly displaying elements of glossolalia, these are little more than vain attempts by hard-core cessationists to discredit and blaspheme the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit.

When it comes to articles and books regarding any supposed connections between tongues and the various pagan religions, we are better off refering to material that has been produced since the 80's as much of the earlier material tends to rely on improperly researched information.

Edit: Reworded the end of the third last paragraph

 

[Biblicist]

Hindus claim possession of their gods and speak and prophesy with a known tongue in a trance. Unknown tongue was local phenomenon only at Corinth that was unrelated to the Holy Spirit.

You seem to be basing your views on hearsay or maybe on old wives tales that support your particular world view.

 

[Biblicist]

I hope there is no repetition, if there is I apologize:

“Summary of Behavioral Science Research Data on Glossolalia:

1. Glossolalia is an ancient and widespread phenomenon of most societies, occurring most usually in connection with religion.”

“Behavioral Science Research on the Nature of Glossolalia”, Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation; September, 1968


“There are records of ecstatic speech and the like in Egypt in the eleventh century B.C. In the Hellenistic [Greek] world the prophetess of Delphi and the Sibylline priestess spoke in unknown or unintelligible speech. Moreover, the Dionysianrites contained a trancelike state as well as glossolalia. Many of the magicians and sorcerers of the first century world exhibit similar phenomena.”

G.R.Osborne, in the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, 1984, page 1100.


“Descriptions of ecstatic speech are common in the study of comparative religions.... The Delphic and Pythian religions of Greece understood ecstatic behavior and speech to be evidence of divine inspiration by Apollos.”

C.M. Robeck, Jr., in The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, 1988, page 872.


“...Glossolalia is a very ancient practice it is still practiced nowadays in many religions, especially those where one seeks contact with the spirit world (witchcraft/shamanism, voodoo) or a union mystical with the “All”. Mohamed, the founder of Islam, is probably the most famous of those who have practiced glossolalia.”

“Glossolalia (Tongues) and 1 Corinthians 14”

Bruno D. Granger

http://www.apologetique.org/en/rticles/neomontanism/BDG_glossolalia_en.htm


“Enthusiastic, ecstatic, mystic, possession, trance and other kindred phenomena have long been of interest to anthropologists. Cross-cultural reviews of ethnographic data on glossolalia in particular have been published by L.C. May, Jennings, M. Eliade, among others. The practice was known in ancient India and China, and ethnographies describe glossolalia in almost every area of the world... speaking-in-tongues is widespread and very ancient.”

E. Mansell Pattison

Behavioral Science Research On The Nature Of Glossolalia Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation, September 1968

These points have been addressed in my earlier post where I pointed out that these now dated views have been dismissed by the leading Christian scholars of our day.

Research conducted by Al Carlson at the University of California and Werner Cohn at the University of British Columbia indicate that anyone can produce glossolalic speech which sounded genuine even to believers.

Jimmy Jividen, “Glossolalia: from God or man?” p 163.

I'm not sure what this really means. Even though tongues, which are always directed toward God are given in a non-communicative unintelligible tongue, they can still be recognised by a hearer as being "language-like". For that matter, whenever I find myself sitting amongst a group of people who are speaking in some East-Asian languages, my very Anglicised ear finds it really hard to discern if what they are saying is even language, though I fully recognise that they are speaking in a human language.

“This survey has shown that speaking-in-tongues is widespread and very ancient. Indeed, it is probably that as long as man has had divination, curing, sorcery, and propitiation of spirits, he has had glossolalia ... Whatever the explanation, it is clear that pagans as well as Christians have their glossolalia experiences.”

Jimmy Jividen, “Glossolalia: from God or man?” p 74,75

This has also been discounted in my earlier post.

“It should be noted that, while there are Hellenistic parallels for tongues, there is also an OT basis. Thus the seers of 1 Sam. 10:5ff. seem to be robbed of their individuality, and their fervor finds expression in broken cries and unintelligible speech (cf. 2 Kgs. 9:11). Drunkards mock Isaiah’s babbling speech (Is. 28:10-11). The later literatare, e.g., Eth. En. 71:11, gives similar examples of ecstatic speech (not necessarily speaking in tongues).”

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume. Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985) Johannes Behm. Unabridged edition of the TDNT, Volume I, page 722.

That should read as page 124.
I've valued Behm's material in the TDNT for a long time though his use of "parallels for tongues" has been a problem, where various other scholars have wondered what he meant as well. It could be that he was using "parallels" in a broad sense though I doubt if he was trying to say that the OT references were a direct equivelant to NT tongues.

“Glossolalia is an ancient and widespread phenomenon of most societies, occurring most usually in connection with religion.”

Behavioral Science Research on the Nature of Glossolalia Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation, September, 1968

This comment goes back to my previous material regarding the research ty the ASA.

 

[Righttruth]

You seem to be basing your views on hearsay or maybe on old wives tales that support your particular world view.

Definitely, it not a corinthian view!

 

[Righttruth]

...and yet this conversation is not even up to that level.

I can't go back to the level of Corinthian church!

 

[Biblicist]

Definitely, it not a corinthian view!

Errr. . . so you are acknowledging that your opinions are merely based on a collection of old wives fables which by default means that the Corinthians were reflecting Biblical practice; maybe you should go back and read my comment again!