Spiritual manifestations at Pentecost

[SavedByGrace3]

Okay, now I see where you are coming from.

The text of 1Cor 14:14 is a difficult passage in the Greek where in recent years it has become popular to translate τὸ πνεῦμά μου προσεύχεται as "the S/spirit of me". This seems to be the better option where it allows for Paul saying that the agent of tongues is the Holy Spirit who resides within Paul (by default within us as well).This can be rephrased as "the Holy Spirit who resides within me"; where the capital (S) is for the Holy Spirit and the lowercase (s) is for our sentient being or our senses.

There is second less probable option where Paul could be using the term 'spirit' to refer to his sentient abilities where he is able to choose to pray.

As my understanding of the nature of man is that we are a dichotomy, where man is comprised of both a body and soul and for the Christian, where we also have the Holy Spirit residing within us, then this passage is not all that problematic for me as I have always understood, even from my earliest days, that Paul was referring to the Holy Spirit.

Theologically speaking, the Scriptures always point to the Holy Spirit as being the one who prays on our behalf in tongues to the Father, anything else is outside of accepted theology.

Trouble is... that is just not what it says. It says, very clearly and with no ambiguity in the Greek or English:

"when I pray in tongue, my spirit prays.."


(ABP+) For ifG1437 G1063 I should prayG4336 in a language,G1100 G3588 my spiritG4151 G1473 prays,G4336 G3588 butG1161 my intellectG3563 G1473 is unfruitful.G175 G1510.2.3

(ASV) For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

(BBE) For if I make use of tongues in my prayers, my spirit makes the prayer, but not my mind.

(Bishops) For yf I pray with tongue, my spirite prayeth, but my vnderstanding is without fruite.

(CEV) For example, if I use an unknown language in my prayers, my spirit prays but my mind is useless.

(Darby) For if I pray with a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.


(DRB) For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth: but my understanding is without fruit.

(EMTV) For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

(ERV) If I pray in a different language, my spirit is praying, but my mind does nothing.

(ESV) For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.

(Geneva) For if I pray in a strange togue, my spirit prayeth: but mine vnderstading is without fruite.

(GNB) For if I pray in this way, my spirit prays indeed, but my mind has no part in it.

(GW) If I pray in another language, my spirit prays, but my mind is not productive.

(ISV) For if I pray in another language, my spirit prays but my mind is not productive.

(JUB) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

(KJV) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

(KJV+) ForG1063 ifG1437 I prayG4336 in an unknown tongue,G1100 myG3450 spiritG4151 prayeth,G4336 butG1161 myG3450 understandingG3563 isG2076 unfruitful.G175

(KJV-1611) For if I pray in an vnknowen tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my vnderstanding is vnfruitfull.

(KJV-BRG) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

(LEB) For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unproductive.

(LITV) For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

(MKJV) For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

(RV) For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

(Webster) For if I pray in an unknown language, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

(WNT) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is barren.

(YLT) for if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit doth pray, and my understanding is unfruitful.


There is not a single instance in any known translation that modifies the text the way you have suggested. It says exactly what it says and means exactly that. There is no Greek word in the text that even suggests the word "Holy" or "that resides within me." That is pure fabrication.

The context of the verse is contrasting his personal spirit and his personal mind. The next verse carries through on that thought:

1 Corinthians 14:15
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Again.. he is contrasting his spirit and his understand. It would make no sense to attempt to warp these verses to mean the Holy Spirit.

It is a dangerous thing to change the text of the scripture so that it will support your personal wind of doctrine.
God is watching...

 

[hislegacy]

Consider the possibility that people can and do speak in tongues by utterances other than the Holy Spirit. Demons? Even your own born again spirit.

Consider that is not scripturally supported. There is NO Place in scripture where someone prayed in tongues by demons, or 'other utterances'. Sorry Dids - it is just not there.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Consider that is not scripturally supported. There is NO Place in scripture where someone prayed in tongues by demons, or 'other utterances'. Sorry Dids - it is just not there.

I understand what you are saying. Yet on the other hand, the scriptures do not spell out that the earth has a core or that some fish can fly. But we know they do. Granted that these are self evident truths that support themselves and really do not need validation from scripture. But the point is that just because something is not spelled out in scripture, that does not, by itself, refute it. Now if scripture said that tongues is only by utterance from the Holy Spirit then you would have a point... but of course it does not say that either.
But it is a fact that there are instances of non-believers speaking in unknown tongues. We have two choices. One is suggest that they are just speaking out of their souls. The other is to suggest that some spirit is giving them utterance.
Since there is ample evidence that men have prophesied via utterance from demons, then it is not a stretch to assume that men have spoken in tongues via utterance from demons. If a demon can prophesy, it should have no trouble speaking in tongues.

 

[Biblicist]

Trouble is... that is just not what it says. It says, very clearly and with no ambiguity in the Greek or English:

"when I pray in tongue, my spirit prays.."
Again.. he is contrasting his spirit and his understand. It would make no sense to attempt to warp these verses to mean the Holy Spirit.
. . . . . .
. . . . . .
It is a dangerous thing to change the text of the scripture so that it will support your personal wind of doctrine.
God is watching...

As for my supposedly "warping" the Scriptures to support my point of view, as my post #158 would reflect the best thought of numerous Pentecostal, charismatic and Evangelical commentators, then I am more than confident that my position fits firmly into the meaning of the passage.

What you have done with regard to your rather unique position that the supposed human spirit can speak in tongues (apart from the agency of the Holy Spirit), is that you have built your doctrine not on a substantial number of passages, nor even with a clear single verse but you have instead based it on a somewhat obscure verse that has had many commentators for centuries pondering over what Paul meant to say.

No theologian worth his salt would dare entertain the notion that the supposed human spirit could speak in tongues, as even a cessationist commentator would recognise that the Holy Spirit is always the source or agency of speaking in tongues.

As for the possiblity of a demon speaking in tongues, my earlier post demonstrated that the best research dismisses this idea, at least when it comes to the mystery religions of ancient Greece and Rome. If you have any substantiated material regarding demons supposedly speaking in tongues then I would be interested to see it.

So I would say to you that you should never build a doctrine on an obscure verse where contrary to your own opinion on the verse in question, the best theologians are in agreement that this verse is a bit obscure but through the input of the Pentecostal scholar Gordon D. Fee (1987), he has provided a solution to the passage which many other scholars have also taken up.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Obscure verse?

That's enough.

No use discussing the Bible...
if we are going to ignore the Bible.

Change your screen name to "BestTheologianist"

 

[Biblicist]

Obscure verse?

That's enough.

No use discussing the Bible...
if we are going to ignore the Bible.

Change your screen name to "BestTheologianist"

Hey Did's, surely you can reply to my material in a more contemplative manner, can you provide any sources for your particular position?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Obscure verse?

That's enough.

No use discussing the Bible...
if we are going to ignore the Bible.

Change your screen name to "BestTheologianist"

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Biblicist knowledge on many subjects.

You are being rude.

 

[Blade]

Pauluk333. Paul.. "was not present at". This is not fair. Well we know of what we read about what Jesus did.. was not all. For there would I think not be enough books to hold all of what Jesus did. This goes for ALL the word. We only get a glimpse at things. Like who was the man Paul went to when he was blind? This guy NEW GOD so good that God could just talk to him.

What I have problems with is how some not talking about you ok? How some know all about what is of the devil yet not God? Then ask them.. how much do you pray? How much of the word do you read? See try reading 24/7..try praying 24/7.. how are we to be thinking? Phil says it.. how are we to love 1st Cor tell us. Forgive me.. we are always looking at others and what they are doing and KNOW they are or not of GOD. Yet He told us.. get that beam out of your eye and then you can get that SPEC out of your brothers eye. A whole town/city Jesus could do no mighty work just lay hands and a few and teach. Why? Unbelief.

We never got min by min what happen on Pentecost. Nor ALL the things of what Jesus did. The only people that God will heal or deliever are the ones we read about? Think...

Forgive me but if one does not believe..God will just go to find someone that will. Some lift up snakes.. its written about.. I dont believe thats what Jesus really meant but you know what? Just like Copeland and all the rest ...they are STILL saved. I can listen to them or some Baptist preacher and still hear my Father. Really? We as man going to tell GOD..a sorry they cant laugh and be that happy and dance.. where is that written? Haha you really would not have liked how the Children of Israel worshiped the lord. ask the Father.. man He is so real.. Jesus is so real.. why cant people ask pray seek wait on Him? He is real no?

 

[hislegacy]

But it is a fact that there are instances of non-believers speaking in unknown tongues

Chapter and verse That establishes this as fact please

 

[SavedByGrace3]

But it is a fact that there are instances of non-believers speaking in unknown tongues

Chapter and verse That establishes this as fact please

Should one test the spirits when they hear a message in an unknown tongue?

If yes... then you have you answer. Why bother testing if in fact it never occurs.

If no... then you should.



And..
Chapter and verse that you exist.

 

[hislegacy]

So then it is not in scripture. Thank you, I did not think so.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

So then it is not in scripture. Thank you, I did not think so.

Nor are you. I did not think so.
Thank you!

 

[hislegacy]

Dids. You are better than that my Brother.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Dids. You are better than that my Brother.

But I think you get the point Put. To say something obvious (such as your existence) does not exist simply because it is not detailed in the Bible is a thin one.... point that is.

So lets return to the ignored point:

Should one test the spirits when they hear a message in an unknown tongue?

If yes... then you have you answer. Why bother testing if in fact it never occurs.

If no... then you should.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Here is an example from the book "The Mechanics and Practice of Speaking in Tongues"

"A Chinese laundryman visited a charismatic church in which the members were speaking in tongues. One of the elders of the church recognized the Chinese man and visited his laundry business the following week. When he asked the Chinese man how he liked the church service, the man shook his head in disapproval.


The elder said, “What was wrong? I thought I heard a lady speak in tongues that sounded like Chinese.”


The Chinese man said, “She did speak in Chinese, and she was cursing God the whole time.”


This is just one of many such examples, of which I have heard, of individuals who believed that they were praising God, but who were in fact cursing Him."

The book is replete with dozens of accounts, including recordings, of people speaking in unknown tongues who were Buddhists, Hindus, Jewish, even atheists.

 

[hislegacy]

"A Chinese laundryman visited a charismatic church in which the members were speaking in tongues. One of the elders of the church recognized the Chinese man and visited his laundry business the following week. When he asked the Chinese man how he liked the church service, the man shook his head in disapproval.


The elder said, “What was wrong? I thought I heard a lady speak in tongues that sounded like Chinese.”


The Chinese man said, “She did speak in Chinese, and she was cursing God the whole time.”

Which would beg the question. If he understood her tongues, what language was it in and how did he know it was a curse.

Second question. How could someone with the heart motive to praise God curse him?

It doesn't make sense. What next? The kundalini spirit?

Hogwash.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Which would beg the question. If he understood her tongues, what language was it in and how did he know it was a curse.

Second question. How could someone with the heart motive to praise God curse him?

It doesn't make sense. What next? The kundalini spirit?

Hogwash.

Thanks for the discussion!

 

[hislegacy]

Thanks for the discussion!

You're welcome. Care to answer the questions?

 

[Biblicist]

Which would beg the question. If he understood her tongues, what language was it in and how did he know it was a curse.

Second question. How could someone with the heart motive to praise God curse him?

It doesn't make sense. What next? The kundalini spirit?

Hogwash.

If I am taking Did's line of thought correctly, it seems that he is maybe equating demonic or human generated tongues as being with how someone who speaks another language might come into a meeting with the intent of cursing the name of Jesus in their native tongue. Even though the story that he quoted certainly seems to be questionable, as I could not imagine anyone who heard someone doing such a thing not asking about this before they left the meeting; there have undoubtedly been people who have tried such a thing but I really doubt if someone who operates within the Manifestation of Discernment of Spirits that they would be able to use this ability to challenge someone who did this. It would be a tall ask to see someone standing up in the middle of the meeting where they would challenge such an individual (but would it be impossible, who knows).

There is always the possibility that the visitor who made the claim that he heard someone cursing the name of Jesus that he was in fact not telling the truth!

D.A. Carson mentioned years back that he and a friend went into a Charismatic meeting where his friend pretended to speak in tongues during the meeting. What his friend did was to speak a portion of the first chapter of John in Biblical Greek where someone gave an interpretation that had nothing to do with what his friend said. As his friends words had nothing to do with any evil spirit, but where he simply wanted to see how alert the members of the congregation were, then the ability to discern spirits would be of no value in this particular situation.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

You're welcome. Care to answer the questions?

This is not an inquisition...
Placed on ignore...