Why so Many Angry Christians today ?

[ScottA]

Ha! That's exactly what I thought. Unfortunately that "even" is not there, but right before that verse, we read:

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Romans 8:20

And we have plenty more:

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3:22

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." 1 Timothy 4:10

"For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded [them] all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen." Romans 11:30

God bless you my friend.

All Paul is saying is that there is only one Savior for "all" the world...not that "all" are saved. Every time it seems to say that "all" are saved, the context is "all" who ARE saved, not all as in everyone saved or not. He even says "specially" those that believe, clearly eliminating everyone else.

 

[ScottA]

My friend, according to the verse you sent me, you believe that these gentiles that were not saved before Messiah came, do not live this limited existence of natural life alone. According to a carnal (and mistranslated) interpretation of Revelation 14:10, they will be tormented forever and ever.

You say that provisions were made by God for gentiles that joined the Israelites. This is true. A gentile could join the Israelites, and even get circumcised if they wished to attend Passover. Never once does God say that gentiles should do this so that they can avoid an eternal torture chamber.

"Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in." Joshua 6:1

Jericho didn't even want to fight. They were afraid and shut all the people into the city.

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." Joshua 6:21

Where were the provisions for Jericho? The Israelites went straight in and destroyed everyone. Nobody begged and pleaded with Jericho to repent. Is everyone in Jericho burning in hell?

"But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" Deuteronomy 20:16

Are the inhabitants of these cities burning in hell right now? The Jews couldn't even save the women and children. Are all the children from these cities (that have passed the so called "age of accountability") burning in hell right now?

What about the people that lived before the Law? Or before Abraham? Where were their provisions.

I'm not trying to mock my friend. These things need to be addressed, because we are talking about people burning for trillions and trillions and trillions of eternal years. This is not just something to scoff at or ignore.

You wrote:

"Other than that, salvation was limited to the chosen...who then became the firstfruits risen with Christ."

I'm not really sure what this means. Are you saying the Jews are the firstfruits of those risen with Messiah?

You also say that the only salvation was faith in the coming Messiah. None of these cities even heard of a coming Messiah. Jonah didn't say a single word about a coming Messiah to the Ninevites.
Are the inhabitants of these cities burning in hell right now? The Jews couldn't even save the women and children. Are all the children from these cities (that have passed the so called "age of accountability") burning in hell right now?

What about the people that lived before the Law? Or before Abraham? Where were their provisions.

I'm not trying to mock my friend. These things need to be addressed, because we are talking about people burning for trillions and trillions and trillions of eternal years. This is not just something to scoff at or ignore.

Burning for all eternity, can only be fully understood, when we come to the comprehension that there was never anything else, that Time was and is not what it seems here and now. Take time out of the equation, and the judgement, is the snapping of God's fingers, instantaneous. That is the truth from God's side...which, in reality, is the only side, the only answer and explanation.

So...EVERYTHING is for all eternity, and this Time is a fable, no more than the twinkling of an eye, that breaks everything down to allow us to take a side. But then this Once Upon a Time storybook, is closed.

You wrote:

"Other than that, salvation was limited to the chosen...who then became the firstfruits risen with Christ."

I'm not really sure what this means. Are you saying the Jews are the firstfruits of those risen with Messiah?

You also say that the only salvation was faith in the coming Messiah. None of these cities even heard of a coming Messiah. Jonah didn't say a single word about a coming Messiah to the Ninevites.

History is His story, told once upon a time, with all the magical painted on butterflies and purple mountains, and yes, even the savory "stand in" characters of a common movie set. But this is projected Light. When the light goes out, all those who were not born out of the set and into the kingdom of God...vanish. And if that sounds cruel...that is why we leave the Light on, and let it shine.

This is why it is correct to say "all" are saved, but not true to say "all" [including] the stand-ins. Their life in lights...is their only life, just as it is for Mickey and Donald, and our fury little friends in the animal kingdom.

The first fruits are one and the same as the first of the two witnesses, the man of flesh (the man of sin), in whom all men corporately exist. Christ's physical death on the cross bought their salvation, but only the chosen. As witnesses, they believed in His coming, before He came. We who are born after the cross, though we also live in the flesh, no longer have that option. We must believe, not that He comes, but that He HAS come already. In doing so, we are granted adoption into Christ, not by our flesh, but by the spirit of God pored out upon all who receive it during these time, the times of the gentiles. We are His second witness, who witness in spirit.

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matthew 7:7

That last verse is our Lord. Was He only speaking to the Israelites when He said this? Should we disregard everything He said because He wasn't talking to us?

The Gospel is not conplex. It is simple and pure. It is very easy to perceive, because God has abounded us with the wisdom and knowledge of His will.

I agree with almost everything you have said here. However, we have a much different idea of what this Light and darkness is. You believe this light and darkness are people.

"And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness." Luke 11:39

"Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity." Matthew 23:28

"And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man." Mark 7:21

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21

And I believe all men will be joined the Spirit of Messiah, for all men will confess and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Do you not know that we will judge the world? Do you not know that we will judge angels? What is our criteria for judging?

It is not that we will judge, but that we do judge the world. We manifest, that which we shall be.

 

[RDKirk]

All Paul is saying is that there is only one Savior for "all" the world...not that "all" are saved. Every time it seems to say that "all" are saved, the context is "all" who ARE saved, not all as in everyone saved or not. He even says "specially" those that believe, clearly eliminating everyone else.

Paul's intention is to make it clear that no nationality is left out of the call to salvation by prejudice on God's part, which is what he had to hammer hard with those very nationality-bigoted people.

 

[Farm Truck]

Yet I keep on Noticing all these angry Christians that hate their enemies and want to see them suffer some Eternal Torment, I wonder are these Christians The Goats that Jesus describes in Revelations, you know the ones that said they cast out Demons in his name ?

Some are still babies... carnal still after all these years.

If everyone is going to heaven, why would it matter what people do? Eat, drink and be merry.

Ah yes, one of satan's favorite lies - universalism!

 

[2KnowHim]

All Paul is saying is that there is only one Savior for "all" the world...not that "all" are saved. Every time it seems to say that "all" are saved, the context is "all" who ARE saved, not all as in everyone saved or not. He even says "specially" those that believe, clearly eliminating everyone else.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This is All inclusive. How many die in Adam?
And notice it says....In Christ All, ....Not All in Christ as some would want you to believe.

The same All in Adam is The same All in Christ here being discussed.

 

[Rajni]

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This is All inclusive. How many die in Adam?
And notice it says....In Christ All, ....Not All in Christ as some would want you to believe.

The same All in Adam is The same All in Christ here being discussed.

Yes, that's the only way that verse would make any
sense. "If the plain sense makes the most sense, seek
no other sense lest you come up with nonsense."

Another thing about that is that it also states how all
shall be made alive. We didn't acquire death in Adam
by responding to altar-calls in his name, being baptized
in his name, or saying a special prayer to him to make
it official. We didn't have to "trust in Adam in order to
be Dead". It happened without mankind's permission
or belief. All creation was subjected to futility against
its will, but that same "all creation" can look forward to
the day when it will join God’s children in glorious
freedom from death and decay (see Romans
8:20-21). Scripture already says that it was God that
bound us all over to disobedience in order to have
mercy on us all (Romans 11:32). It was something He
proactively did.

Now, if the first Adam—a frail human—could foul the
entirety of mankind so effortlessly, there's no reason
why the second Adam—God Himself—can't fix the
entirety of mankind (see Romans 5:15).

So, just as in Adam it happened in such an involuntary
manner, so in Christ it will happen in the same
involuntary manner. These decisions are being made
higher up the ladder (apparently)

Romans 5:14 says that Adam was a pattern of the one
to come. Romans 5 continues to echo 1 Corinthians
15:22's message by saying:

"16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the
result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin
and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many
trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the
trespass of the one man, death reigned through that
one man, how much more will those who receive
God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of
righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus
Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in
condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act
resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just
as through the disobedience of the one man the many
were made sinners, so also through the obedience of
the one man the many will be made righteous."


-

 

[2KnowHim]

Exactly Chaela, Like I've said before .....

The sacrifice of Christ's Life, must be "AT LEAST" as Equal to the fall of Mankind, or else it is in vain. If it's not, then sin and death is more powerful than Righteousness, Which is just not so.

Blessings

 

[HonestTruth]

If everyone is going to heaven, why would it matter what people do? Eat, drink and be merry.

Go to Heaven?

The New Testament indicates that the City of God is on earth at Jerusalem as per Revelations 21, not Heaven.

 

[2KnowHim]

Go to Heaven?

I asked this question before too. I can't find anywhere it says we're "Going" to Heaven either.
The closest I've found which still is not "going" but is a very present Reality or a least should be.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

[ScottA]

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This is All inclusive. How many die in Adam?
And notice it says....In Christ All, ....Not All in Christ as some would want you to believe.

The same All in Adam is The same All in Christ here being discussed.

Jesus must have been lying then:

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations Matthew 25:41-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I wasnaked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

And Paul must have been lying too:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

...Ultimately, it is easy to see how the language could be confused to be taken as all inclusive in a few passages. But it is not possible to mistake the multitude of language that describes the evil being separated from the good, referring to "people" (not just evil deeds) as the wheat and the tares, etc. This is the general thrust of all of scripture.

 

[HonestTruth]

I asked this question before too. I can't find anywhere it says we're "Going" to Heaven either.
The closest I've found which still is not "going" but is a very present Reality or a least should be.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

SNIP

and,



it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment ~ Hebrew 9:27

 

[ScottA]

Oh, here's another one:

Exodus 32:33
And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

 

[anonymouswho]

Burning for all eternity, can only be fully understood, when we come to the comprehension that there was never anything else, that Time was and is not what it seems here and now. Take time out of the equation, and the judgement, is the snapping of God's fingers, instantaneous. That is the truth from God's side...which, in reality, is the only side, the only answer and explanation.

So...EVERYTHING is for all eternity, and this Time is a fable, no more than the twinkling of an eye, that breaks everything down to allow us to take a side. But then this Once Upon a Time storybook, is closed.

Hello my friend. Sorry for the delay. This weekend was my anniversary so I was spending time with my wife.

I'm not sure what this means. Are you saying that there was nothing else but burning for eternity? I'm sorry, I just really don't understand what this means. Are you saying that the people that are destined for hell have actually already been there for eternity?

History is His story, told once upon a time, with all the magical painted on butterflies and purple mountains, and yes, even the savory "stand in" characters of a common movie set. But this is projected Light. When the light goes out, all those who were not born out of the set and into the kingdom of God...vanish. And if that sounds cruel...that is why we leave the Light on, and let it shine.

This is why it is correct to say "all" are saved, but not true to say "all" [including] the stand-ins. Their life in lights...is their only life, just as it is for Mickey and Donald, and our fury little friends in the animal kingdom.

The first fruits are one and the same as the first of the two witnesses, the man of flesh (the man of sin), in whom all men corporately exist. Christ's physical death on the cross bought their salvation, but only the chosen. As witnesses, they believed in His coming, before He came. We who are born after the cross, though we also live in the flesh, no longer have that option. We must believe, not that He comes, but that He HAS come already. In doing so, we are granted adoption into Christ, not by our flesh, but by the spirit of God pored out upon all who receive it during these time, the times of the gentiles. We are His second witness, who witness in spirit.

I find this a bit confusing as well. What do you mean by "that is why we keep the Light on"? Once the light goes off, are the stand-In characters still welcome to come back to the Light? Or are they going to be tortured for eternity? If this is their only life, then are you implying annihilation? Annihilation and eternal torment of fire are very different concepts.

You said:

"As witnesses, they believed in His coming, before He came. We who are born after the cross, though we also live in the flesh, no longer have that option. We must believe, not that He comes, but that He HAS come already."

You are only talking about a very small portion of the world. The Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans didn't believe in a coming Messiah. Are all the pagans throughout the generations that did not even know there was a Messiah coming burning in hell? Are all the pagans that refused to believe the Jews about a coming Messiah burning in hell? Again, if there was any other way before Messiah came, and His coming has excluded about 90% of mankind, and if He came to reveal a fiery eternal torture chamber that no one had ever heard about before, then where is the Good News?

It is not that we will judge, but that we do judge the world. We manifest, that which we shall be.

I can agree with this as well, however, we are told to forgive. And no matter what anyone does to us or how bad we are hurt, we are told to forgive. We are told to love our enemies. Not because God expects us to do something that He Himself is unwilling to do, but so that we can be perfect even as He is perfect. This means that God loves His enemies. There is no fear in Love. Paul was God's enemy. I was God's enemy. I hated God's way. I thought things should be different. I thought that others should suffer for not believing what I believe. I would scoff at adulterers, liars, and thieves. I would chuckle and make comments like "don't these people know there's a hell?" or "they'll get what's coming to them!"

What sort of disgusting person jokes about hell? I've heard very nice preachers refer to hell as the "turn or burn doctrine", while the congregation bursts out into laughter. How is this funny?

I was deceived, just as the whole world is deceived. I believed I had made the ultimate right decision, and God Loved me for what I had done. Then I got into Calvanism, and I believed God loved me because He chose me. Then I learned about the Restoration of All Things. And God brought me down low, throwing me into the pit, where He's put me through the Fire, and He's been burning out the wood, hay, and stubble ever since. Believe me when I say there is still plenty left that needs to be destroyed, but God has mercy on me. And His mercy- forever.

"O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:

The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:

The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:

And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:

With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:

And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:

But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:

And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:

And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:

Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:

And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.

O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever."

Thank you my friend and God bless.

 

[Rajni]

Are you saying that the people that are destined for hell have actually already been there for eternity?

You raise an interesting point. In order for a person to truly
be suffering eternally, that suffering would have to have been
going on—for them, personally—not only into eternity-future,
but also since eternity-past. Otherwise, it can't be eternal, at
least in duration.

"O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:

The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:

The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:

And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:

With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:

And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:

But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:

And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:

And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:

Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:

And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.

O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever."

Amen.
Mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:13)

-

 

[ScottA]

I'm not sure what this means. Are you saying that there was nothing else but burning for eternity? I'm sorry, I just really don't understand what this means. Are you saying that the people that are destined for hell have actually already been there for eternity?

If we can imagine all the truth that God has shown and told us, from His timeless perspective, then what we have experienced in time, does not actually include time. Time is a creation and a scientific illusion. It serves the purpose of showing us all that God has done, but it is a finite creation that does not exist in the actual reality of God's own kingdom. It is as though Time were a book of all of history (His story) sitting on His shelf in that timeless reality. We can read the detail, and even go there in our mind...but it is just a story, because time does not exist as we think of it and experience it.

So, eternal judgement, which divides good and evil for all eternity, was and is, instantaneous. When Christ said, "It is finished." that is exactly what He meant. Just because we were only half way through the book of life, does not mean the story is not complete. It is finished, because it was a matter of eternity, not of Time. It was instantaneous.

I find this a bit confusing as well. What do you mean by "that is why we keep the Light on"? Once the light goes off, are the stand-In characters still welcome to come back to the Light? Or are they going to be tortured for eternity? If this is their only life, then are you implying annihilation? Annihilation and eternal torment of fire are very different concepts.

You said:

"As witnesses, they believed in His coming, before He came. We who are born after the cross, though we also live in the flesh, no longer have that option. We must believe, not that He comes, but that He HAS come already."

You are only talking about a very small portion of the world. The Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans didn't believe in a coming Messiah. Are all the pagans throughout the generations that did not even know there was a Messiah coming burning in hell? Are all the pagans that refused to believe the Jews about a coming Messiah burning in hell? Again, if there was any other way before Messiah came, and His coming has excluded about 90% of mankind, and if He came to reveal a fiery eternal torture chamber that no one had ever heard about before, then where is the Good News?

Keeping the Light on is simply a metaphor for the ongoing reading of God's story for those who have not yet been mentioned in the final chapters. From our perspective of Time, we experience the story unfold, because we have not yet heard it...but not because it is not already complete, because it is.

We wait for our own part in the story to be complete and then we go to be with God in that Timeless reality. But timelessness (or eternity) is not linear as we think of time. It is linear in terms of our experience, but time does not tick. It is difficult to describe an existence that we can only detail as timeless, and as it is with God. But to be complete...is good, and when we have heard the end of our own story, we shall be complete, just as God is complete.

I can agree with this as well, however, we are told to forgive. And no matter what anyone does to us or how bad we are hurt, we are told to forgive. We are told to love our enemies. Not because God expects us to do something that He Himself is unwilling to do, but so that we can be perfect even as He is perfect. This means that God loves His enemies. There is no fear in Love. Paul was God's enemy. I was God's enemy. I hated God's way. I thought things should be different. I thought that others should suffer for not believing what I believe. I would scoff at adulterers, liars, and thieves. I would chuckle and make comments like "don't these people know there's a hell?" or "they'll get what's coming to them!"

What sort of disgusting person jokes about hell? I've heard very nice preachers refer to hell as the "turn or burn doctrine", while the congregation bursts out into laughter. How is this funny?

I was deceived, just as the whole world is deceived. I believed I had made the ultimate right decision, and God Loved me for what I had done. Then I got into Calvanism, and I believed God loved me because He chose me. Then I learned about the Restoration of All Things. And God brought me down low, throwing me into the pit, where He's put me through the Fire, and He's been burning out the wood, hay, and stubble ever since. Believe me when I say there is still plenty left that needs to be destroyed, but God has mercy on me. And His mercy- forever.

When we come to the knowledge of God, we are shown chapter by chapter our real place. We are shown our beginning, where we came from, and are told where we are going...but only in part. We have not seen the end, nor do we know the details, until it is revealed to us. In the revelation process, we come from less knowledge to more knowledge, a piece at a time...most of which was foretold, even if we did not see it for a season, or have yet to see it. Christ told his disciples, "I have many more things to tell you, but you cannot bear it now." But it unfolds, even now, as our/His story draws to a close.

One of those details, is the dilemma of what to consider "all" in terms of restoration. That "all" does not include "all" but only "all" that God has judged as "good." The entire story of salvation and restoration, God's entire word, tells of His dividing good from evil (light from darkness) literally on a daily basis (day and night). In the end, there shall be no more night, nor darkness. But do not misunderstand, darkness cannot be restored to light, it can only be eliminated, and so it is.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

For some that isn't true. It's not that we want people to suffer ETC but we want people to see the truth that ECT/Hell/LoF is true and Biblical and the concept of UR/Universalism is a false doctrine that isn't Biblical and in some corners consider it a heresy.

That's a false dichotomy. UR has a lake of fire, it's simply redemptive, even if that redemption may take "ages and ages" ages are like the days of creation, they're on God's time, when the condition is met (in this case sin being removed from the creation) the age ends, this is the time of eternity, the cairos.

 

[anonymouswho]

You raise an interesting point. In order for a person to truly
be suffering eternally, that suffering would have to have been
going on—for them, personally—not only into eternity-future,
but also since eternity-past. Otherwise, it can't be eternal, at
least in duration.

Yes, eternity is a very strange concept, and I don't believe the Greeks nor the Hebrews had any such equivalent term. As I've been discussing in PM with my good friends Jugghead and 2KnowHim, eternal (if we should even consider it a valid term) should be understood as quality rather than quantity. It's not a duration of time, but rather something we possess now. It is to know the Only God, and His Son that He has sent. Immortality is what we will possess. We will no longer die, because death is being destroyed. But while we are still here, we have been given eternal life. The orthodox believe this eternal life means we will live for an infinite duration, and those who don't receive it will be tortured for an infinite duration. If only they could appreciate what God has given them now. I always like to ask "if you found out God was not going to let you live forever, would you still follow Him?" As far as any of us know, with 100% certainty, men die and rot until their bodies decompose back to dirt. They don't know their dead, so they don't care anyways. I do believe in a physical Resurrection of the dead, but either way, God gives us peace, joy, love, and an eternal quality of life that we wouldn't give up for anything. What else could we ask for while we go through this meaningless existence?

That's the problem I think we've all experienced. We wanted more. Knowing who God is wasn't good enough, especially since He has all these rules that He expects us to follow. So we think that we deserve something for doing what He tells us to do. But Yeshua tells us:

"So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." Luke 17:10

Amen.
Mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:13)

Always. Mercy is so much stronger than Judgement, and Judgment is what makes Mercy glorious. Without Judgment, there could be no Mercy. And God's anger cannot go on forever, or His loving Spirit would fail Him:

"For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made." Isaiah 57:16

His Mercy- forever.

God bless my friend.

 

[anonymouswho]

If we can imagine all the truth that God has shown and told us, from His timeless perspective, then what we have experienced in time, does not actually include time. Time is a creation and a scientific illusion. It serves the purpose of showing us all that God has done, but it is a finite creation that does not exist in the actual reality of God's own kingdom. It is as though Time were a book of all of history (His story) sitting on His shelf in that timeless reality. We can read the detail, and even go there in our mind...but it is just a story, because time does not exist as we think of it and experience it.

So, eternal judgement, which divides good and evil for all eternity, was and is, instantaneous. When Christ said, "It is finished." that is exactly what He meant. Just because we were only half way through the book of life, does not mean the story is not complete. It is finished, because it was a matter of eternity, not of Time. It was instantaneous.

I agree with almost everything here. I do have one small problem. You say that eternal Judgement divides Good and Evil for all of eternity. Are you then saying that eternal hell is eternal separation from God and Yeshua? If this is true, what does this verse mean?

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" Revelation 14:10

As I've been discussing with my other friends on here, eternity is too strange of a concept for me to wrap my mind around. I don't believe the Greek nor the Hebrew language had anything that was equivalent to this term, especially to describe a duration of time. Timelessness would mean "no time", not "an endless amount of time", so this concept is much too strange for me.

I do not believe the soul is eternal. God knew Jeremiah before He was born, but this doesn't imply that He had conversations with Jeremiah before He "sent" him to the earth. This simply means that Jeremiah was planned to be born at that specific time to carry out the Will of God, and God had been patiently waiting for Jeremiah to come. So, I believe God knew me before He created the Universe, even though I did not exist when He began Creation.

When we come to the knowledge of God, we are shown chapter by chapter our real place. We are shown our beginning, where we came from, and are told where we are going...but only in part. We have not seen the end, nor do we know the details, until it is revealed to us. In the revelation process, we come from less knowledge to more knowledge, a piece at a time...most of which was foretold, even if we did not see it for a season, or have yet to see it. Christ told his disciples, "I have many more things to tell you, but you cannot bear it now." But it unfolds, even now, as our/His story draws to a close.

One of those details, is the dilemma of what to consider "all" in terms of restoration. That "all" does not include "all" but only "all" that God has judged as "good." The entire story of salvation and restoration, God's entire word, tells of His dividing good from evil (light from darkness) literally on a daily basis (day and night). In the end, there shall be no more night, nor darkness. But do not misunderstand, darkness cannot be restored to light, it can only be eliminated, and so it is.

Why can darkness not be restored to light?

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." John 1:4

Nobody had a single clue why Yeshua had come. They couldn't comprehend how this was the Messiah that had been promised to them. Peter and the rest of the Apostles had no clue what Yeshua was talking about, and they always had to ask what His parables meant. They were full of darkness.

"The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" Matthew 6:22

The darkness is not eliminated, it is filled with Light. After that Light enters, it lights up the whole body. We will still have things standing in the way of the Light, giving off shadows. But once all of these things are burned away by the refining Fire of this Light, the shadows disappear.

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:117

"Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness." Jeremiah 13:16

"To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." Acts 26:18

"For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:" Ephesians 5:8

We have all lived in darkness. We have all walked through the valley of the shadow of death. God did not eliminate us, He had mercy on us. He will have mercy on all of mankind, because He is the Creator of all things.

"Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:4

God bless my friend.

 

[2KnowHim]

Actually this word "comprehended" is directly from the Vulgate and means "overtake" or "overcame" .
Joh 1:5 and the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it. LITV
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness overpowered Him not. EWB-CB
Joh 1:5 AndG2532 theG3588 lightG5457 inG1722 theG3588 darknessG4653 appears,G5316 andG2532 theG3588 darknessG4653 [2itG1473 3notG3756 1overtook].G2638 ABP+

 

[anonymouswho]

Actually this word "comprehended" is directly from the Vulgate and means "overtake" or "overcame" .
Joh 1:5 and the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it. LITV
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness overpowered Him not. EWB-CB
Joh 1:5 AndG2532 theG3588 lightG5457 inG1722 theG3588 darknessG4653 appears,G5316 andG2532 theG3588 darknessG4653 [2itG1473 3notG3756 1overtook].G2638 ABP+

You're absolutely right. When I looked the verse up, I saw that other translations had this as "overcome", and I thought that really tied in perfectly with what ScottA and I were discussing. I really don't know why I went with "comprehend". I think I was thinking about this verse....

"But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him." John 11:10

....and how the eye is the light of the body. If we stumble in darkness, we don't have eyes to see. So "comprehend" just seemed to make sense to me. Thank you for the correction.

I was thinking about how Light overcomes darkness, but darkness cannot overcome Light. Most of the Universe is darkness. Yet when the Light shines through it, we can see it. Stars that are millions of light years away are still visible, because the darkness around them cannot drown them out. Instead, the darkness magnifies the Light. Just as mercy is glorified against judgment.

Again, thanks for the correction. I love talking to believers that have a concordance. I'm very peculiar about what words mean. I have to go to bed now, so I'll reply to your message tonight. Lots of great stuff there. Thanks my friend and God bless.