Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

[Standing Up]

Could be but you're the one who brought it up.

So how about it? How do you know that book is inspired by God?

Certainly not because of RC.

 

[mmksparbud]

For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
Galatians 1, 13–14

This is what we do know of Paul before his conversion. His love for the Torah may have exempted him from getting married as it did for Ben Azzai and probably more like him.

I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they live like me.
1 Corinthians 7, 8

Paul places himself as a model for others who choose to remain unmarried and chaste for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. In order to be a true model for others, that is without any hypocrisy, Paul could only have chosen to remain celibate rather than be forced because of some biological defect.

I never said Paul applied Jewish law on the Gentiles. But I'm sure he understood that he didn't commit a sin by being celibate before and after his conversion on account of his love for the Torah and the divine Word. I believe that it was because of Joseph's exceptional love for the Torah that he was chosen to be the guardian of the divine Word become man.

For the Intercession of Saint Joseph

O Joseph,
virgin-father of Jesus,
most pure Spouse of the Virgin Mary,
pray every day for us to the same Jesus,
the Son of God,
that we,
being defended by the power of His grace
and striving dutifully in life,
may be crowned by Him
at the Hour of death. Amen.

This prayer is from the Catholic Collect for the Feast of St.Joseph. It is one prayer among several others which can be recited by the faithful during Holy Mass in honour of our patron saint. As part of the Sacred Liturgy, the greatest monument of sacred Tradition, Joseph's virginity amounts to being a dogmatic fact, though not a dogma in and of itself. Thus all Catholics are obligated to believe and profess that Joseph was a virgin when he was betrothed to Mary and never had any children with her after Jesus was born. What we find in the PoJ is nothing but hearsay. In this text we have Joseph initially refusing to wed Mary because of his old age and widower status with children and then being accused of impregnating Mary after having secretly married her. The early Eastern tradition is based on a fairy tale. We read in Scripture that Joseph was a righteous man. Never would he have engaged in subterfuge against the temple priests.

PAX

Paul says it's fine to be celibate---AND NOT MARRY!! He never said--get married, and remain celibate! Want to dedicate yourself to God?---great, be celibate--and do not marry!!!

 

[bbbbbbb]

Paul says it's fine to be celibate---AND NOT MARRY!! He never said--get married, and remain celibate! Want to dedicate yourself to God?---great, be celibate--and do not marry!!!

But don'cha know that there is the secret commandment to take a vow of celibacy and then take on a roommate of the opposite gender who is old enough to be your grandparent?

 

[thecolorsblend]

It was written in the times of apostles, unlike PoJ.

So something being written during the time of the apostles means it is inspired? But lots of supposed gospels were written then. How do you know those aren't inspired?

As Athanasius said, NT was handed down as divine, unlike PoJ.

But I don't get it, Athanasius lived long after the time of the apostles. How can you trust anything he says?

 

[thecolorsblend]

Certainly not because of RC.

Okay so we've eliminated one possibility. How do you know the Bible is inspired then?

Paul says it's fine to be celibate---AND NOT MARRY!! He never said--get married, and remain celibate! Want to dedicate yourself to God?---great, be celibate--and do not marry!!!

So an ancient social custom doesn't comport with your expectations of what's normal so that means it's automatically wrong?

 

[mmksparbud]

But don'cha know that there is the secret commandment to take a vow of celibacy and then take on a roommate of the opposite gender who is old enough to be your grandparent?

Yah---and marry them to boot-----hey! if it's secret, how do you know about it-- who spilled the beans??

 

[mmksparbud]

Okay so we've eliminated one possibility. How do you know the Bible is inspired then?

So an ancient social custom doesn't comport with your expectations of what's normal so that means it's automatically wrong?

Ancient social custom!!??? I've yet to read about it anywhere in scripture or in other book other than a Catholic one!--Paul said, it's better NOT to marry-never said marry a young woman, and then be celibate--never once!!

 

[thecolorsblend]

Ancient social custom!!??? I've yet to read about it anywhere in scripture or in other book other than a Catholic one!--Paul said, it's better NOT to marry-never said marry a young woman, and then be celibate--never once!!

Whether it's because of your emotional theatrics or your stubborn denial, what I don't think you're grasping is how the ancient world would view a virgin conceiving and giving birth to Our Lord. You are welcome to view the matter any way you wish but rest assured the ancients viewed her in a way they compared to the Temple. Her womb was the Lord's dwelling place. That was a big deal to them. They were taught that she remained a virgin and it sure looks like they had no trouble understanding why that would be.

 

[mmksparbud]

The ancient view of a virgin giving birth would be no different than a modern view---an awesome miracle of God! She was a virgin, there is no doubt of that. But no one at the time considered her to be the Mother of the Son of God. She was considered a woman that conceived prior to the official marriage. (Except for her family and Joseph and a few select others) It was not until the Jews accepted Jesus as the Messiah and they learned of the virgin birth that they made that realization. But that she then remained a virgin was not even considered until some Catholic priest decided it must be so---no one considered having other children, or having sex with your husband to be a sin so she was not thought of as sinning by doing so. It was the Catholic aversion to the whole concept that began this, not some ancient Jewish custom.

 

[thecolorsblend]

The ancient view of a virgin giving birth would be no different than a modern view

That tells me everything I need to know about how you're viewing this matter.

We're done here.

 

[mmksparbud]

That tells me everything I need to know about how you're viewing this matter.

We're done here.

No need to continue---same old argument---esp if you think that modern people view the miraculous virgin birth any differently than the ancients would have!! It is no less awesome then than it is now.

 

[narnia59]

Ancient social custom!!??? I've yet to read about it anywhere in scripture or in other book other than a Catholic one!--Paul said, it's better NOT to marry-never said marry a young woman, and then be celibate--never once!!

Yes, Paul did advocate that a couple might choose to live in a state of celibacy. In that same chapter discussion the benefits of celibacy and the relationships between spouses, he says this:

1 Corinthians 7:32-38 (NIV)
32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

36 If anyone is worried that he might not be acting honorably toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if his passions are too strong and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married. 37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing. 38 So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does better.

The state of betrothal (or engagement) that Mary and Joseph were in was a legally binding marriage contract, which is why St. Joseph considered "divorce". According to St. Paul, if St. Joseph settled the matter in his own mind and had control over his own will, he did better by Mary by not actually marrying her but keeping her a virgin and need not worry about not acting honorably towards her.

 

[mmksparbud]

Yes, Paul did advocate that a couple might choose to live in a state of celibacy. In that same chapter discussion the benefits of celibacy and the relationships between spouses, he says this:

1 Corinthians 7:32-38 (NIV)
32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

36 If anyone is worried that he might not be acting honorably toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if his passions are too strong and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married. 37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing. 38 So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does better.

The state of betrothal (or engagement) that Mary and Joseph were in was a legally binding marriage contract, which is why St. Joseph considered "divorce". According to St. Paul, if St. Joseph settled the matter in his own mind and had control over his own will, he did better by Mary by not actually marrying her but keeping her a virgin and need not worry about not acting honorably towards her.

If you are saying that Mary and Joseph were not actually married but living in sin you would be very wrong. A couple did not move in together until they were officially married, and Paul said if you're going to be celibate than do not marry ! Joseph was told by the angel to not be afraid o marry her, they had not yet been officially wed, the angel said go ahead, she had not been unfaithful. A betrothal was considered a marriage contract, but the marriage was not considered a marriage until the official wedding ceremony. They still could not 'shack up" together as betrothed, only as married!

 

[narnia59]

If you are saying that Mary and Joseph were not actually married but living in sin you would be very wrong. A couple did not move in together until they were officially married, and Paul said if you're going to be celibate than do not marry ! Joseph was told by the angel to not be afraid o marry her, they had not yet been officially wed, the angel said go ahead, she had not been unfaithful. A betrothal was considered a marriage contract, but the marriage was not considered a marriage until the official wedding ceremony. They still could not 'shack up" together as betrothed, only as married!

They were indeed officially wed when Mary conceived. Betrothal was an official covenant. That is why Joseph was inclined to seek a divorce when he discovered she was with child (Matthew 1:19). He had not yet taken her into his home and consummated the marriage, but a divorce would have been required to "put her away quietly" because they were indeed married in the eyes of the law.

The angel did not tell Joseph to not be afraid to marry her, they were already married under Jewish law. That is faulty English translations. The Greek word used in Matthew is "gunaika" which simply means "woman". For example, when Christ refers to Mary as "woman" that is the term that is used, and he's not calling her his wife! The Greek text never mentions "marriage" either. He is simply told to take the woman into his home when you remove the translation bias.

Scripture never records their having an official wedding ceremony does it? Yet, Joseph obviously did as the angel commanded and took her into his home, and at the time of the birth of Christ is on his way to register her as his wife in the census. Yet she is still referred to as his "betrothed" (Luke 2:5). So yes, they were living as husband and wife and presenting themselves as husband and wife even though they were still in a state of betrothal. And when the angel comes to tell him to take them to Egypt, the angel doesn't tell him to take his "wife" and child. He tells him to take "the child and his mother" (Matthew 2:13). There is no acknowledgement anywhere in Scripture that she becomes his wife in any way other than in the "public" sense of registering her as being in his home in the census. There is no evidence in Scripture that they ever ceased to live in their home in anything other than the betrothal state. Which St. Paul certainly indicates is just fine for a couple to do.

 

[Standing Up]

.

 

[Standing Up]

Okay so we've eliminated one possibility. How do you know the Bible is inspired then?

How do you know it isn't?

 

[classicalhero]

There were reasons why Jewish men did not marry. For example, if a man were damaged and couldn't bear children. We don't know why Paul was unmarried. We don't even know if he was never married -- he could have been a widower or divorcee. Paul certainly didn't apply Jewish law to Gentiles -- he recommended that believers remain unmarried unless their passions were so strong that they couldn't remain celibate.

We can know that Paul was once married because he was part of the Sanhedrin. To be a member you had to be married and have at least two childre. We know this since the leaders put their coats at his feet, meaning he hd authority to carry out such decision to stone Stephen.

And usage of those words, considering their different connotations in ancient times, can't be used to insist that they are. The Early Church certainly thought Our Lady remained a virgin. Where did they get that idea, I wonder?

The problem is that if they were both to remain virgins, then their marriage was a sham since they are violating the whole point of marriage, which is sex. A sexless marriage is an oxymoron. Considering that most marriages at the time were arranged, the parents of the two would expect to have children and so would the couple, since having children meant they had a source of protection when they got old. The idea that Joseph was a widower is even more highly unlikely because his job was that of a carpenter, meaning he wasn't a wealthy man who could afford to remarry. All things considered about the culture of the time, Mary remaining a virgin for the rest of her life s just culturally impossible. If she had taken a vow, then she simply wouldn't get married in the first, since marriage has certain responsibilities that would violate such a vow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_marriage

Early-teen marriage was possible in Judaism. According to the Talmud, a father is commanded not to marry his daughter to anyone until she grows up and says "I want this one".[74] A marriage that takes place without the consent of the girl is not an effective legal marriage.[75]

Despite the young threshold for marriage, a large age gap between the spouses was opposed,[76] and, in particular, marrying one's young daughter to an old man was declared as reprehensible as forcing her into prostitution.

 

[justinangel]

It was written in the times of apostles, unlike PoJ. Besides as Jerome said, PoJ contradicts scripture. The Gelasian (sic) decree banned the PoJ.

As Athanasius said, NT was handed down as divine, unlike PoJ.

Athanasius couldn't know and declare anything infallibly by himself with the guaranty of the Holy Spirit. The Canon of sacred Scripture as compiled by Athanasius was infallibly decided by the decree of Pope Damasus at the Synod of Rome in A.D. 382. In the wake of the Protestant rebellion in 1546, the Council of Trent infallibly defined the seventy-three books ruled by the Synod at Rome, and soon later ratified by the Councils at Hippo (393) and at Carthage (397), to be truly the inspired word of God. Until the late 4th century, the canon varied among the churches in different regions; some lists contained books and letters that eventually were declared non-canonical by the magisterium of the Church, while these same lists may have included books that rightfully belonged to the canon and then were declared to be. Texts which were considered to be inspired at one time include The Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, and The Shepherd of Hermes, of the 1st century. So how is it that none of these texts weren't inspired, seeing that they contain nothing unorthodox in contravention of sacred Tradition, but rather affirm traditional beliefs of the early Church? We could know that they weren't inspired only by extra-biblical sources of authority: tradition, scholarship, and the infallible ruling authority of the 'Catholic' Church functioning in harmony under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and divine author of the sacred texts.

PAX

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

It makes sense that Mary remained a virgin from a very rudimentary perspective- she's the mother of a divine, virgin birth. It's not in the least bit unreasonable to conclude that she would choose to remain such, as her womb was deemed precious.

 

[justinangel]

We can know that Paul was once married because he was part of the Sanhedrin. To be a member you had to be married and have at least two children. We know this since the leaders put their coats at his feet, meaning he had authority to carry out such decision to stone Stephen.

"According to R. Jose b. Halafta, the members of the Great Bet Din were required to possess the following qualifications: scholarship, modesty, and popularity among their fellow men (Tosef., Hag. ii. 9; Sanh. 88b). According to an interpretation in Sifre, Num. 92 (ed. Friedmann, p. 25b), they had also to be strong and courageous. Only such were eligible, moreover, as had filled three offices of gradually increasing dignity, namely, those of local judge, and member successively of two magistracies at Jerusalem (Jose b. Halafta, l.c.). R. Johanan, a Palestinian amora of the third century, enumerates the qualifications of the members of the Sanhedrin as follows: they must be tall, of imposing appearance, and of advanced age; and they must be learned and must understand foreign languages as well as some of the arts of the necromancer (Sanh. 19a)." [Jewish Encyclopedia, "Sanhedrin."]

This is one source of several which I examined, as well as the link below, that doesn't indicate that a member of the Sanhedrin was required to be married with children. But even if this were so, to be a member of the court, Paul would have had to have first filled the three offices mentioned above. But we read in Acts 8:58 that Paul was a young man, and so he couldn't possibly have yet filled all these three offices. 'Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul' (Acts 8:58). Finally, it was preferable, though not conditional, that a man be at least 40 years old to become a member of the Sanhedrin. We know that Paul was a Pharisee, and a zealous one at that, so it's more likely that he acted on behalf of the high priest to persecute the nascent Church which would explain how Stephen's fate rested on 'Saul's' approval as a representative of the Sanhedrin. He didn't have to be a member of the court to do their bidding. It's even possible that he was being groomed for membership at his advanced young age.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Talmud/sanhedrin4.html

PAX