Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

[Standing Up]

Why didn't Thomas believe that Jesus physically rose from the dead until he touched our Lord? Same reason.

Thomas didn't believe. The midwife did. Guess again. Why does the midwife believe a virgin brought forth?
"And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to thee: a virgin has brought forth -- a thing which her nature admits not of."

I've already told you that Jesus came forth in the flesh, but miraculously. You just don't pay attention.

Drop miraculous and answer the question. Did Christ Jesus come in the flesh?

 

[Standing Up]

...

 

[Standing Up]

Mary is the subject in The Instructor 1:6 as well.

You've completely missed his point, just like you missed Irenaeus' and Cyril's 9-months of virginity (not the whole life of Mary). He's not talking about Mary at all. Read the whole letter for edification.

"But the Lord Christ, the fruit of the Virgin, did not pronounce the breasts of women blessed, nor selected them to give nourishment; but when the kind and loving Father had rained down the Word, Himself became spiritual nourishment to the good. O mystic marvel! The universal Father is one, and one the universal Word; and the Holy Spirit is one and the same everywhere, and one is the only virgin mother. I love to call her the Church. This mother, when alone, had not milk, because alone she was not a woman. But she is once virgin and mother--pure as a virgin, loving as a mother. And calling her children to her, she nurses them with holy milk, viz., with the Word for childhood. Therefore she had not milk; for the milk was this child fair and comely, the body of Christ, which nourishes by the Word the young brood, which the Lord Himself brought forth in throes of the flesh, which the Lord Himself swathed in His precious blood. O amazing birth! O holy swaddling bands! ... Thus to Christ the fulfilling of His Father’s will was food; and to us infants, who drink the milk of the word of the heavens, Christ Himself is food. Hence seeking is called sucking; for to those babes that seek the Word, the Father’s breasts of love supply milk."

Again, he believes it is the church, not Mary, that is the virgin mother of believers, seeking the Word.

 

[justinangel]

Thomas didn't believe. The midwife did. Guess again. Why does the midwife believe a virgin brought forth?
"And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to thee: a virgin has brought forth -- a thing which her nature admits not of."

Why? The mid-wife witnessed our Lord's birth. Salome hadn't, just as Thomas didn't witness Christ's resurrection. The mid-wife, meanwhile, understood that the birth of Jesus was supernatural. She beheld the luminous cloud and then must have examined Mary, if in fact there was a mid-wife. (Luke doesn't record her presence.) But what she couldn't understand was how virginal in aspect, how unnatural or extraordianary for a woman, the birth was, seeing she must have assumed Joseph was the father of the child.

Drop miraculous and answer the question. Did Christ Jesus come in the flesh?

It isn't a question of whether Jesus came forth in the flesh, but rather how he came in the flesh. You're grossly mistaken if you think that his birth couldn't have been as supernatural as his conception was in order for Jesus to come forth in the flesh. Early Docetism held that Jesus was nothing other than a form of spiritual projection, one reason being that Joseph wasn't his real father. Do you believe Jesus was conceived by Joseph's seed? The main reason why you claim that the PoJ contains a strain of Docetism is because you are not well acquainted with this heretical system of belief.

PAX

 

[justinangel]

You've completely missed his point, just like you missed Irenaeus' and Cyril's 9-months of virginity (not the whole life of Mary).

Sorry, but the problem is you are reading Catholic texts through biased Protestant lenses. As a result, you end up making no sense at all.

He's not talking about Mary at all. Read the whole letter for edification.

"But the Lord Christ, the fruit of the Virgin, did not pronounce the breasts of women blessed, nor selected them to give nourishment; but when the kind and loving Father had rained down the Word, Himself became spiritual nourishment to the good. O mystic marvel! The universal Father is one, and one the universal Word; and the Holy Spirit is one and the same everywhere, and one is the only virgin mother. I love to call her the Church. This mother, when alone, had not milk, because alone she was not a woman. But she is once virgin and mother--pure as a virgin, loving as a mother. And calling her children to her, she nurses them with holy milk, viz., with the Word for childhood. Therefore she had not milk; for the milk was this child fair and comely, the body of Christ, which nourishes by the Word the young brood, which the Lord Himself brought forth in throes of the flesh, which the Lord Himself swathed in His precious blood. O amazing birth! O holy swaddling bands! ... Thus to Christ the fulfilling of His Father’s will was food; and to us infants, who drink the milk of the word of the heavens, Christ Himself is food. Hence seeking is called sucking; for to those babes that seek the Word, the Father’s breasts of love supply milk."

Again, he believes it is the church, not Mary, that is the virgin mother of believers, seeking the Word.

You wish to believe it is the Church. The hypostatic order consists of the Holy Trinity and Mary. By giving birth to Jesus, Mary also gave birth to the Church. In this sense she is Mother of the Church, by which Clement means the 'Catholic' Church. You'll find the subject at the beginning of a paragraph, not at its end.

PAX

 

[Standing Up]

Why? The mid-wife witnessed our Lord's birth. Salome hadn't, just as Thomas didn't witness Christ's resurrection. The mid-wife, meanwhile, understood that the birth of Jesus was supernatural. She beheld the luminous cloud and then must have examined Mary, if in fact there was a mid-wife. (Luke doesn't record her presence.) But what she couldn't understand was how virginal in aspect, how unnatural or extraordianary for a woman, the birth was, seeing she must have assumed Joseph was the father of the child.

Joseph had already told the mid wife he was not the father, but the Spirit was. So wrong again.

Why did the mid wife believe Mary remained a virgin?

It isn't a question of whether Jesus came forth in the flesh, but rather how he came in the flesh.

No, John is quite clear. Apparently this too is a hard question for you.

 

[justinangel]

Joseph had already told the mid wife he was not the father, but the Spirit was. So wrong again.
Why did the mid wife believe Mary remained a virgin?

19. And I saw a woman coming down from the hill-country, and she said to me: O man, whither are you going? And I said: I am seeking an Hebrew midwife. And she answered and said unto me: Are you of Israel? And I said to her: Yes. And she said: And who is it that is bringing forth in the cave? And I said: A woman betrothed to me. And she said to me: Is she not your wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was reared in the temple of the Lord, and I obtained her by lot as my wife. And yet she is not my wife, but has conceived of the Holy Spirit.

So Joseph had before they entered the cave. But it makes no difference. Upon examining Mary, the mid-wife found no physical signs that Mary had actually given birth. It was just as Joseph had said; it was true that his wife had conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit which explains the supernatural virgin birth.

No, John is quite clear. Apparently this too is a hard question for you.

I answered your question. Jesus did come forth in the flesh, but not after Joseph had opened Mary's womb with his seed. The gate of her womb remained shut only for the Prince of Peace to pass through without opening it. Apparently this is something which you fail to understand or irrationally deny. Now answer my question: Do you believe that Jesus was conceived by Joseph's seed or by the power of the Holy Spirit? If by Joseph's seed, then Jesus would have passed through the open gate of his mother's womb when he came forth. Ezekiel and Isaiah prophesy the virgin birth. The gate remained closed; Mary gave birth before she would have gone into labour. Sorry, no Docetism here. The Docetists believed that Jesus only appeared to be human in the flesh since Joseph wasn't his father. So you may as well claim that the nativity narratives in the Gospel of Luke were Docetist in order for you to be consistent. The PoJ, based on an existing Marian tradition of the Church, is in line with sacred Scripture, though Luke doesn't describe the miraculous nature of our Lord's birth, only his conception to confirm the Incarnation.

PAX

 

[bbbbbbb]

19. And I saw a woman coming down from the hill-country, and she said to me: O man, whither are you going? And I said: I am seeking an Hebrew midwife. And she answered and said unto me: Are you of Israel? And I said to her: Yes. And she said: And who is it that is bringing forth in the cave? And I said: A woman betrothed to me. And she said to me: Is she not your wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was reared in the temple of the Lord, and I obtained her by lot as my wife. And yet she is not my wife, but has conceived of the Holy Spirit.

So Joseph had before they entered the cave. But it makes no difference. Upon examining Mary, the mid-wife found no physical signs that Mary had actually given birth. It was just as Joseph had said; it was true that his wife had conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit which explains the supernatural virgin birth.

I answered your question. Jesus did come forth in the flesh, but not after Joseph had opened Mary's womb with his seed. The gate of her womb remained shut only for the Prince of Peace to pass through without opening it. Apparently this is something which you fail to understand or irrationally deny. Now answer my question: Do you believe that Jesus was conceived by Joseph's seed or by the power of the Holy Spirit? If by Joseph's seed, then Jesus would have passed through the open gate of his mother's womb when he came forth. Ezekiel and Isaiah prophesy the virgin birth. The gate remained closed; Mary gave birth before she would have gone into labour. Sorry, no Docetism here. The Docetists believed that Jesus only appeared to be human in the flesh since Joseph wasn't his father. So you may as well claim that the nativity narratives in the Gospel of Luke were Docetist in order for you to be consistent. The PoJ, based on an existing Marian tradition of the Church, is in line with sacred Scripture, though Luke doesn't describe the miraculous nature of our Lord's birth, only his conception to confirm the Incarnation.

PAX

I said to her: It is Mary that was reared in the temple of the Lord, and I obtained her by lot as my wife.

Wow! I had no idea that Joseph played the lottery then. What a prize!

 

[Standing Up]

Upon examining Mary, the mid-wife found no physical signs that Mary had actually given birth.

You're getting warmer. The mid-wife, however, doesn't examine Mary. There's pregnant Mary and then there's the baby and the mid-wife believes Mary remains a virgin. Why? You said, "there's no physical signs that Mary had given birth". What physical signs? The mid-wife, unlike Salome, does not examine Mary. So why does the mid wife believe Mary remained a virgin?

 

[justinangel]

You're getting warmer. The mid-wife, however, doesn't examine Mary. There's pregnant Mary and then there's the baby and the mid-wife believes Mary remains a virgin. Why? You said, "there's no physical signs that Mary had given birth". What physical signs? The mid-wife, unlike Salome, does not examine Mary. So why does the mid wife believe Mary remained a virgin?

Of course the mid-wife might examine the mother out of a sense of responsibility, but if she had there would have been no need anyway, seeing that she never noticed any sign of Mary going into labour. There were no cries from Mary due to going into travail. That's how she would know. There was the bright Shekinah cloud and then the appearance of the child after it came forth within a veil that after disappeared. And there was what Joseph had told her about the miraculous conception. Honestly, I have no idea what you are getting at. As usual you make absolutely no sense. I gather you believe that unless Mary had gone into labour Jesus couldn't have been born in the flesh. Thus you must concede that Joseph was the true father of Jesus, since his conception was just as miraculous, to be logically consistent.

PAX

 

[bbbbbbb]

Of course the mid-wife might examine the mother out of a sense of responsibility, but if she had there would have been no need anyway, seeing that she never noticed any sign of Mary going into labour. There were no cries from Mary due to going into travail. That's how she would know. There was the bright Shekinah cloud and then the appearance of the child after it came forth within a veil that after disappeared. And there was what Joseph had told her about the miraculous conception. Honestly, I have no idea what you are getting at. As usual you make absolutely no sense. I gather you believe that unless Mary had gone into labour Jesus couldn't have been born in the flesh. Thus you must concede that Joseph was the true father of Jesus, since his conception was just as miraculous, to be logically consistent.

Wow! It looks like we are going down the rabbit hole even farther now.

Previously we have Joseph winning Mary as a prize in a lottery. Now we have the ineffable brilliance of the Shekinah glory appearing at the stable without a single soul observing it.

 

[Standing Up]

Of course the mid-wife might examine the mother out of a sense of responsibility, but if she had there would have been no need anyway, seeing that she never noticed any sign of Mary going into labour. There were no cries from Mary due to going into travail. That's how she would know.

Labour cries wouldn't have to do with examining Mary. You're hitting the goal posts, but have yet to make the point.

Why would an experienced mid-wife believe a virgin brought forth, something her nature admits not? It's not the pre-birth labor pains. It's not the post-birth inspection ala Salome. What's between?

 

[justinangel]

Labour cries wouldn't have to do with examining Mary. You're hitting the goal posts, but have yet to make the point.

Why would an experienced mid-wife believe a virgin brought forth, something her nature admits not? It's not the pre-birth labor pains. It's not the post-birth inspection ala Salome. What's between?

What exactly is your point? The mid-wife believed that a virgin brought forth, though virgins don't naturally give birth. She understood that the child's birth was miraculous as much as his conception was. What happened in between was obscured by the bright light. You haven't answered but have evaded my question. Do you believe that Joseph was the real father? The Docesists didn't. It was because Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit that they believed he was a spiritual projection of a man. The miraculous birth, however, no less than our Lord's conception, doesn't mean that Jesus didn't come forth in the flesh.

PAX

 

[justinangel]

Wow! It looks like we are going down the rabbit hole even farther now. View attachment 161955

Previously we have Joseph winning Mary as a prize in a lottery. Now we have the ineffable brilliance of the Shekinah glory appearing at the stable without a single soul observing it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think it is worthwhie to note that the poll with this thread has now reached the point where precisely two-thirds of the individuals who responded believe that Mary did not remain a virgin after giving birth to Jesus Christ and one-third believe that she did.

 

[Standing Up]

What exactly is your point? The mid-wife believed that a virgin brought forth, though virgins don't naturally give birth. She understood that the child's birth was miraculous as much as his conception was. What happened in between was obscured by the bright light. You haven't answered but have evaded my question. Do you believe that Joseph was the real father? The Docesists didn't. It was because Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit that they believed he was a spiritual projection of a man. The miraculous birth, however, no less than our Lord's conception, doesn't mean that Jesus didn't come forth in the flesh.

PAX

God is the father. You're confused to think you're docetist if you believe Joseph was the father. Docetism took a variety of forms, but essentially they thought Christ didn't have flesh, or was a phantom, or wasn't born normally, or if born normally still didn't have real flesh.

Why did the mid-wife believe Mary remained a virgin? Not because of labor pains, not because of inspecting Mary, but because ? Come on, anyone?

 

[Standing Up]

I think it is worthwhie to note that the poll with this thread has now reached the point where precisely two-thirds of the individuals who responded believe that Mary did not remain a virgin after giving birth to Jesus Christ and one-third believe that she did.

It's also important to note that those who agree Mary did not remain a virgin upon Christ's birth (or thereafter in her relationship with Joseph), that we agree that she did conceive as a virgin without human "help". We also agree she bore/carried Christ as a virgin and then gave actual, normal birth with all that entails (umbilical cord, placenta, afterbirth, blood, water). All those things present in a normal human birth that the mid-wife did not observe in the PoJames tale. This is why the mid-wife believed Mary remained a virgin. There was no cord, afterbirth, blood, water.

 

[prodromos]

I think it is worthwhie to note that the poll with this thread has now reached the point where precisely two-thirds of the individuals who responded believe that Mary did not remain a virgin after giving birth to Jesus Christ and one-third believe that she did.

Which gives us a rough breakdown on the demographics of those who post in GT. It doesn't really tell us much more than that.

 

[justinangel]

I think it is worthwhie to note that the poll with this thread has now reached the point where precisely two-thirds of the individuals who responded believe that Mary did not remain a virgin after giving birth to Jesus Christ and one-third believe that she did.

I wonder how many Protestants voted No without even reading what has been posted on this thread.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

*the poll*
What?
Mary's virginity is a pretty straight forward, orthodox belief- just as Jesus being sinless and God being a trinity.