Universal reconciliation

[2KnowHim]

Vision God gave me about hell: People who do not accept Jesus Christ go to a place on earth where they are literally stuck; fully conscious but they cannot interact. In this time period they are forced to go mad or to reach out to the God they shunned while alive. If they accept Him in this time period, He is their consolation during their time of 'purgatory' for lack of a better word. And they will be accepted into His kingdom when the earth if finally destroyed. If they do not accept Him after this 'second' chance, they will be annihilated with no chance of return (Lake of Fire?).

If one soul is destroyed/lost/annihilated/put to death for all eternity and not Redeemed/made alive/Quickened, then how can these be Truth?

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

If one soul is annihilated as you say, then Death is not destroyed.
The only way death can be destroyed is by Life.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

2KnowHim,
I would obviously take Rm 8:20-21 the way the Fathers did and you don't. All of creation waited for Him to come, the hope of a restoration - not an "evolving" from a lesson needed to be learned.

You have addressed nothing and denied much. Denying that a view results in A is not addressing that result unless in doing so you show how it is not a result of one's view. This you have not done. Not at all. You simply denied that it is so and attempted to change the subject - which is same thing Hillsage does repeatedly.

If one says that the creation story part showing, in any sense, perfection represents some future perfect state yet to be, rather than a perfection from which mankind fell and in doing so corrupted it all from perfection; then you cannot deny that God created man imperfect and placed him in an imperfect world. You can't have your bread and eat it too. And that fact it is so also requires that one restate the purpose for our existence and address the reasoning God would not or could not do His very best.

I don't think you get my point. Am speaking of individual suffering, which would be relevant to talking about what occurs in Hell and God allowing it. Your counter the idea that such suffering could be eternal is that any father would only allow a suffering required to learn a lesson to the extent the knowledge is acquired. I pointed out that not all suffering that exist serve a teaching purpose for individuals experiencing it. And because such suffering exist we must admit it exists for some Good and God's Glory. Hence we cannot conclude that suffering must end because suffering should stop when a lesson is learned because not all suffering is meant to teach the person suffering a lesson. You cannot dismiss that point by saying all suffering is the result of sin - of course it is and sin is why there will be people in Hell - but that is not the point.

The point is you have not associated the idea that some pain in this world helps us learn a lesson to saying the pain of Hell exists to teach a lesson. That association would be required in order to suggest God would have to end the pain of Hell or risk being called sadistic, cruel, a torturer. So again, you really have not addressed my point that not all suffering in this world exists to teach the person suffering a lesson. You simply stated the obvious truth to which we all agree, that all suffering is the result sin.

Which BTW, would only be true if there was no pain/suffering in the beginning before the first sin - which is part of what saying Creation being originally Perfect means - a point which Hillsage and yourself have repeatedly denied. What sin has the innocent suffering child committed and what lesson is that suffering meant to teach them for example.

 

[2KnowHim]

I would obviously take Rm 8:20-21 the way the Fathers did and you don't. All of creation waited for Him to come, the hope of a restoration - not an "evolving" from a lesson needed to be learned.

Why would you take the understanding from "the fathers" instead of "The Father"? Nevertheless, you claim that we deny and change the subject, but the fact is I am addressing it with Rom. The subject was the perfection from the beginning or not.
And Rom. clearly (with anyone who has eyes to see) states that, The Creature "all of us including Adam" was made subject to vainity, against our will, God did that, knowingly and did it in Hope.

But there are other things too...such as Adam was Naked before he disobeyed God....again naked is symbolic for not being clothed with Righteousness. He was formed, not created as in Gen. 1, from the ground/from beneath, since when does perfection come from beneath? Jesus said I am from above, you are from beneath, one is of the earth, earthy, the other is from above the Heavenly. And even common sense would tell us that if Adam was Perfect then how could he have ever fallen from a place of perfection, Christ never did. And I don't think that anyone would argue the fact that He wasn't Perfect.

I've stated many times that Christ is, was, and has always been The Perfection, The image, and The Likeness of The Father.
And He is what is meant in Gen.1:26 & 27 not the dirt man Adam, but the Last Adam/The Son of God. How could we possibly be made into Gods image and likeness without Him? Look at your own walk with Him, isn't it obvious that this is what God had in mind from the beginning.

We haven't changed the subject, you just don't see what we see or understand what were saying. When you speak of the creation are you talking about the world around us or mankind? The world around us is billions of yrs. old, but Gen.1 is only 7days or as the bible teaches 7,000 yrs. how can that be? Because again it isn't talking about the natural literal creation of the World, but The Redemption of mankind, which according to The Spirit of God, we are in The last day, not days as are mention in the new test. But The last day. For it has been 2,000yrs.. since Jesus Christ, He was made manifest on the 4th day, or 4,000 yrs of Gods plan, it's been 2more days since then, this is the last day or 1,000 yr. period of His plan through His Son.

And we have also addressed Hell, and what we see it to mean through The Spirit and not mens doctrines or "the fathers " teachings, and you don't agree, we have also talked about The lake of Fire and what it means to us and explained it the best we knew how, we have talked about the word eternal and punishment. So I don't know what you are referring to specifically when you say that we haven't adressed something.

If one says that the creation story part showing, in any sense, perfection represents some future perfect state yet to be, rather than a perfection from which mankind fell and in doing so corrupted it all from perfection; then you cannot deny that God created man imperfect and placed him in an imperfect world. You can't have your bread and eat it too. And that fact it is so also requires that one restate the purpose for our existence and address the reasoning God would not or could not do His very best.

Yes, you got that right, it does require us to question the purpose and re-examine everything we have come to believe because of what we have heard all our lives and been taught by others. The Question is "Are you willing to do that for The Truth"? And "Would not or Could not" is not the question, The fact is He did not create us Perfect, "we were always meant to be in NEED of HIM" that can't happen if we were made Perfect from the beginning now could it?

 

[jugghead]

I was 12 when I accepted Christ as my Savior, why did I do it?, because I was told a bad report ..... that I was going to hell to be tortured for all of eternity if I didn't ...... fear was my motivation for doing it when I was 12 ..... but after that ..... still nothing changed ..... it wasn't until 35 years later when I was 47, that on December 12, 2005 that something happened to me that I could not explain ..... according to everything I was previously taught by men ..... "I WAS SAVED" ..... but not until the revelation of Christ "IN" me was revealed ..... did I understand that what happened to me on that day was ..... I was given GOD'S HUNGER for me to know the truth, for I had no hunger of my own and could not since I myself was subjected to vanity unwillingly.

You can say what you want ..... but I cannot and will not deny ..... that what happened to me on that day "WAS" Divine intervention ...... the difference being now ..... I see myself as being chosen to know the truth "BEFORE" another ..... not chosen to know the truth "OVER" another.

May All Glory go to the Father so that we can take "NO" credit for anything that He does "FOR" us and "IN" us

 

[brixken7]

Why would you take the understanding from "the fathers" instead of "The Father"? Nevertheless, you claim that we deny and change the subject, but the fact is I am addressing it with Rom. The subject was the perfection from the beginning or not.
And Rom. clearly (with anyone who has eyes to see) states that, The Creature "all of us including Adam" was made subject to vainity, against our will, God did that, knowingly and did it in Hope.

But there are other things too...such as Adam was Naked before he disobeyed God....again naked is symbolic for not being clothed with Righteousness. He was formed, not created as in Gen. 1, from the ground/from beneath, since when does perfection come from beneath? Jesus said I am from above, you are from beneath, one is of the earth, earthy, the other is from above the Heavenly. And even common sense would tell us that if Adam was Perfect then how could he have ever fallen from a place of perfection, Christ never did. And I don't think that anyone would argue the fact that He wasn't Perfect.

I've stated many times that Christ is, was, and has always been The Perfection, The image, and The Likeness of The Father.
And He is what is meant in Gen.1:26 & 27 not the dirt man Adam, but the Last Adam/The Son of God. How could we possibly be made into Gods image and likeness without Him? Look at your own walk with Him, isn't it obvious that this is what God had in mind from the beginning.

We haven't changed the subject, you just don't see what we see or understand what were saying. When you speak of the creation are you talking about the world around us or mankind? The world around us is billions of yrs. old, but Gen.1 is only 7days or as the bible teaches 7,000 yrs. how can that be? Because again it isn't talking about the natural literal creation of the World, but The Redemption of mankind, which according to The Spirit of God, we are in The last day, not days as are mention in the new test. But The last day. For it has been 2,000yrs.. since Jesus Christ, He was made manifest on the 4th day, or 4,000 yrs of Gods plan, it's been 2more days since then, this is the last day or 1,000 yr. period of His plan through His Son.

And we have also addressed Hell, and what we see it to mean through The Spirit and not mens doctrines or "the fathers " teachings, and you don't agree, we have also talked about The lake of Fire and what it means to us and explained it the best we knew how, we have talked about the word eternal and punishment. So I don't know what you are referring to specifically when you say that we haven't adressed something.



Yes, you got that right, it does require us to question the purpose and re-examine everything we have come to believe because of what we have heard all our lives and been taught by others. The Question is "Are you willing to do that for The Truth"? And "Would not or Could not" is not the question, The fact is He did not create us Perfect, "we were always meant to be in NEED of HIM" that can't happen if we were made Perfect from the beginning now could it?

2KnowHim,
Your reference to the first and last Adam reminded me of a study I made a number of years ago. It concerns a rather astonishing new proof that God will succeed in remaking all of mankind into His own image and likeness (which He clearly reveals as His goal in Genesis 1:26). In other words, all of mankind will have a body as God Himself has.

My study was in I Corinthians 15 of the New American Standard Bible, and the context is various BODIES and their composition, beginning with verse 35 and going to verse 57. The apostle Paul begins by addressing the question, "How are the dead raised ... and what kind of body do they have?" (verse 35). From verse 35 to verse 44 he speaks in general terms concerning this subject, and looks at various bodies and their composition.

In verse 44 he states that there is "a natural body" and "a spiritual body."
Then in verse 45 he states that the first man, Adam, became a living soul with a natural body, while the last Adam (Christ) had a life-giving spiritual body.

Then in verse 46 he merely states that the natural (physical) body is first, and "then the spiritual" (body).

Then in verse 47 of the NASB he seems to be repeating verse 45 by saying, "The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven." Now why would he repeat himself? It is my belief that Paul is NOT repeating himself because he is using the Greek word "anthropos," which CAN BE --- and occasionally is --- translated "mankind" or "humanity" elsewhere in the Bible! Thus when properly translated it would, in my opinion, read, "The first mankind is from the earth, earthy; the second mankind is from heaven."

Now some Greek manuscripts include the phrase "the Lord" in this verse. So supplying the proper ellipsis and punctuation, verse 47 would essentially read as "The first mankind is out of the earth and earthy; the second mankind will be as the Lord --- out of heaven."

Or it could even properly read, "...the second mankind will be as the Lord out of heaven." But I am more inclined to believe that Paul wanted to make the point that as we all now have a body made from out of the earth, in the future we shall all have a body from out of heaven. This is in agreement with Revelation 21:2 that speaks of Christ's bride, the New Jerusalem, "coming down from God out of heaven." You see, the New Jerusalem is a "universal convocation" (Hebrews 12:23; Concordant version).

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Why would you take the understanding from "the fathers" instead of "The Father"? Nevertheless, you claim that we deny and change the subject, but the fact is I am addressing it with Rom. The subject was the perfection from the beginning or not.
And Rom. clearly (with anyone who has eyes to see) states that, The Creature "all of us including Adam" was made subject to vainity, against our will, God did that, knowingly and did it in Hope.

But there are other things too...such as Adam was Naked before he disobeyed God....again naked is symbolic for not being clothed with Righteousness. He was formed, not created as in Gen. 1, from the ground/from beneath, since when does perfection come from beneath? Jesus said I am from above, you are from beneath, one is of the earth, earthy, the other is from above the Heavenly. And even common sense would tell us that if Adam was Perfect then how could he have ever fallen from a place of perfection, Christ never did. And I don't think that anyone would argue the fact that He wasn't Perfect.

I've stated many times that Christ is, was, and has always been The Perfection, The image, and The Likeness of The Father.
And He is what is meant in Gen.1:26 & 27 not the dirt man Adam, but the Last Adam/The Son of God. How could we possibly be made into Gods image and likeness without Him? Look at your own walk with Him, isn't it obvious that this is what God had in mind from the beginning.

We haven't changed the subject, you just don't see what we see or understand what were saying. When you speak of the creation are you talking about the world around us or mankind? The world around us is billions of yrs. old, but Gen.1 is only 7days or as the bible teaches 7,000 yrs. how can that be? Because again it isn't talking about the natural literal creation of the World, but The Redemption of mankind, which according to The Spirit of God, we are in The last day, not days as are mention in the new test. But The last day. For it has been 2,000yrs.. since Jesus Christ, He was made manifest on the 4th day, or 4,000 yrs of Gods plan, it's been 2more days since then, this is the last day or 1,000 yr. period of His plan through His Son.

And we have also addressed Hell, and what we see it to mean through The Spirit and not mens doctrines or "the fathers " teachings, and you don't agree, we have also talked about The lake of Fire and what it means to us and explained it the best we knew how, we have talked about the word eternal and punishment. So I don't know what you are referring to specifically when you say that we haven't adressed something.



Yes, you got that right, it does require us to question the purpose and re-examine everything we have come to believe because of what we have heard all our lives and been taught by others. The Question is "Are you willing to do that for The Truth"? And "Would not or Could not" is not the question, The fact is He did not create us Perfect, "we were always meant to be in NEED of HIM" that can't happen if we were made Perfect from the beginning now could it?

Deny it and not address the issue again. Of course man (and creation) was "made subject to", meaning sin was a potential, in the beginning. It is that potential that Adam makes a reality - corrupting himself and through him all mankind and all of creation. So in this view it is Adam, not God, that brought suffering on us all and into creation. It is this that no UR supporter here wants to address.

So once again we have a non-answer. For according to you, sin had to exist first - because according to both of us and to which you first agreed to - all suffering is a result of sin. Which means in your view God must first create sin (do evil) first, in order for suffering to exist - in order for the imperfect man and imperfect world to then exist. So in your view "Good" creates evil and it goes accepted without challenge or explanation.

I can understand why no one on the UR sides wants to address these troubling aspects of having God create an imperfect creature, put him in an imperfect world of suffering from which to then "save" him. It makes no sense - so how could anyone explain it.

 

[2KnowHim]

Deny it and not address the issue again. Of course man (and creation) was "made subject to", meaning sin was a potential, in the beginning. It is that potential that Adam makes a reality - corrupting himself and through him all mankind and all of creation. So in this view it is Adam, not God, that brought suffering on us all and into creation. It is this that no UR supporter here wants to address.

THIS is What your referring to? .....I have addressed this before. God does not have to Create Evil or sin in order for it to exist. But He KNEW It very well before any of us did. And when I say "knew" I mean intimately "Knew".
Because God is Good the opposite of that has always exisited,... as God has always exsited.
I even gave you scripture for it too.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
How do you think God Knew Good and Evil long before we were created?
Why do you think the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the World?

If we are to be made in His image and His likeness then we must also become very aquainted with it too.

So in this view it is Adam, not God, that brought suffering on us all and into creation. It is this that no UR supporter here wants to address.

It is by one man that sin entered and death pass upon all men, this is very true. But The Truth is it was God who Made Adam Subject to Good and Evil, by placing The Tree before him, It was God who made the whole Garden senerio to begin with, It was God who made ever beast of the field including the serpent and presented them to Adam to see what he would name/nature them. It was God who could have prevented it all from happening, ....But He didn't because it was all neccesary for us to become like Him To know Good and Evil. But it was also God who took full responsibility for this when He gave us His Son.

Let's break this down and see just what it is saying shall we?
Rom 8:20 ForG1063 theG3588 creatureG2937 was made subjectG5293 to vanity,G3153 notG3756 willingly,G1635 butG235 by reason ofG1223 him who hath subjectedG5293 the same inG1909 hope,G1680

hoop-ot-as'-so Subject
From G5259 and G5021; to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

mat-ah-yot'-ace Vanity
From G3152; inutility; figuratively transientness; morally depravity: - vanity.

So now we have God, make no mistake this is talking about God who did this...
Rom. For the creature (Adam and all of us) was made (to obey, and to submit ourselves) to moral depravity, against our will, but by reason of Him (God) who hath (made us to do this) the same in hope.
Knowing He Himself would already take the Responsibility of Reconciling us back to Himself through The Work of His Son.
For the Soul purpose of "KNOWING HIM".

That's the best i can do of explaining this, the rest is up to you to search out and decide for yourself, which is truth and which is not.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

2KnowHim
You say the words but don't listen to yourself. If God creates anything less than Perfect - then God created evil. I cannot abide that view of God. You want your cake and eat it to. Can't have it both ways. Either He made everything Perfect, as any thought of what is All Good requires, or He did not. You claimed He did not. So there you go.

Or is your suggestion that God did not create evil, that it simply existed before along side God, as a real entity?

 

[2KnowHim]

Or is your suggestion that God did not create evil, that it simply existed before along side God, as a real entity?

I didn't say "Along side God as an entity" you did. But I am saying that Evil exsisted before God formed man upon the earth.
And if you don't agree or see anything that anyone else is trying to show you, then you tell me, in fact enlighten us all, where you think Evil came from. It's clear that God knew evil before Adam, so tell us Dr. where did evil come from since you seem to be so knowledgable.

 

[jerry kelso]

I didn't say "Along side God as an entity" you did. But I am saying that Evil exsisted before God formed man upon the earth.
And if you don't agree or see anything that anyone else is trying to show you, then you tell me, in fact enlighten us all, where you think Evil came from. It's clear that God knew evil before Adam, so tell us Dr. where did evil come from since you seem to be so knowledgable.

2knowhim,

1. Evil was not created by God. Calamity is created by God for judgement and this is what is meant by God created evil in Isaiah.

2. God is perfectly good and cannot be the source of evil or make people evil etc. and be perfectly good. He used it for his purpose against the war of sin and it's father the devil.

3. God made the angels perfect and they are created beings. Because God created them with creative powers and creative thinking etc. they had the power of choice.
Because God is totally good and perfect and righteous and holy evil would be the absence of this perfectionism of holiness and righteousness. This is why evil could not be created but it was an antithesis of right and did not come into being until Lucifer sinned. So Lucifer is the father of evil for he was perfect until iniquity was found in him. Ezekiel 28:15. He sinned by freewill choice otherwise he could have not sinned in the first place. I believe personally it was because of his ability of freewill choice while beholding pride of his beauty of bearing light; (Ezekiel 28:17), that made him desire to be like God; (Isaiah 14:13-14) and for the fact that he actually ruled a pre-adamite world which gave him a taste of rulership power that he rebelled against God. Satan had defiled the sanctuaries which is translated Goy which means nations or gentile nations or something to that effect. Ezekiel 28:17 and Isaiah 14:12.

4. So evil or sin came before Adam and it originated within Lucifer by his ability to make a freewill choice to sin which is an absence of perfection of holiness and righteousness of God. It was the antithesis of right and could not be manifested until Lucifer sinned and he did. When this happened God created man as a way to eradicate sin completely through saving sinners redeeming redemption and destroying the works of the devil and the devil himself to win the great confrontation between Satan and himself. God has always been in control despite Satan controlling hearts of sinners and the world system that may be evil. But God could not deviate from the plan of salvation, and any failure would mean Satan would win and become the ultimate God. We know this could never happen no matter what because God was still in control even after Satan sinned. Jerry Kelso

 

[2KnowHim]

1. Evil was not created by God. Calamity is created by God for judgement and this is what is meant by God created evil in Isaiah.

I never said God Created Evil, and as for the rest of your post, IMO it is nothing more than nonsense, created by the imaginations of mens carnal minds, trying to interpret those scriptures you listed. That is something you have been taught by the church and NOT by The Spirit of God. So we have nothing more to say.

 

[2KnowHim]

I had to laugh at your post Astropolis, thank you for the simpicity for which it was wrote. Which by the way I feel carries great Truth. I too found it to fix many of the seemingly condradictions that I was struggling with also.

Do I have to enter eternity knowing that some of my friends are in eternal torment?

This is what God used to change my understanding from mainstream believing to what they now call Unorthodox.
I had a dear friend of mine who passed away suddenly, and the last conversation I had with them was about The Lord, I ask her why is it you listen to me go on and on about how good God is and what He's been doing in my life and never voice an opinion as to what you believe. And she said to me, I love you, but I hate God...I couldn't believe it...I was in shock.
Then she began to tell me that it was because God took her child from her at a very young age.

I didn't know what to say me being very young in The Lord at the time. Then she died three days later. My whole foundation was rocked to the core.. I believed that, because of the teachings of the church and their eternal torment doctrine that was where she was at, I couldn't bare it, for the next few days I was the one who was in torment. She was with Him.

To make a long story short this is how He began to open things up in The Word that I had never seen before, I mean I had read them a million times but I never seen them until The Holy Spirit began to interpret them for me instead of men.

One thing I know for sure and certain is, that when all the pride that men take in their theological studies, and their doctrines come tumbling down, they will see the Truth. And they will say like Paul did, now I count them all "Dung" That I may Win Christ.

 

[jugghead]

One question we should be asking ourselves is:

If Christ tells us we should love our enemies, How can I have compassion towards anyone that does evil against another?

This is a question that can completely consume us or we can just throw it away and never think about it again. But ... if you do meditate upon this question ... the Lord will give you an answer. Here is the answer that was given to me.

If we only see the final result of who an evil man is ... that is the only way we will see them ... but ... if you view his whole life, in the same way the Father can see His whole life ... compassion towards that person (that has become evil) begins to grow when we are shown his life from the time of his birth to the present... an innocent child that had never done anything wrong or been misled in any way to becoming an evil man/woman.

Do you see their whole life and see how they became what they are?
"OR"
Do you only see the end result and then judge them accordingly?

It is the people that this person has had contact with through the process of growing up that has led him to make the choices he did. If we ourselves do not believe that we would have been exactly like them by being put in the exact same circumstances ... we are lying to ourselves ... for given the exact same circumstances ... anyone would turn out to be just like the one they may judge.

If you do not believe "that" to be truth, there is no sense in going even further in trying to understand another, and that is simply because the rest becomes irrelevant if you cannot put yourself in the place of another ... for that is exactly what our Lord and Savior did when He took on the likeness of Adam. If we are unwilling to feel what another went through ... being hurt ... being misled ... trusting and being betrayed ... being told they are worthless ... having pain inflicted upon them ... "ALL THIS" while they were growing up ... what gives us the right to judge them?

We have "NO RIGHT" to judge another if we ourselves are unwilling to live their life. And by being unwilling, we remain in judgment of them ... resulting in judgment against us ... for how you judge another, it shall be measured unto you, which is the same truth as "You reap what you sow".

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I didn't say "Along side God as an entity" you did. But I am saying that Evil exsisted before God formed man upon the earth.
And if you don't agree or see anything that anyone else is trying to show you, then you tell me, in fact enlighten us all, where you think Evil came from. It's clear that God knew evil before Adam, so tell us Dr. where did evil come from since you seem to be so knowledgable.

Those answers should be very obvious from my posts and if you feel my brief summations insufficient, feel free to read for yourself various representations of the orthodox view of creation, good and evil, how evil came into this creation, making creatures with free will requiring the potential for evil...etc. The online Catechism and NEWADVENT.org would be an excellent start for seeing the Catholic view. That and more is all online for anyone to read. Am not hear to defend the view opposed to UR, am here to ask how the view of the whole mess the UR view makes of all of creation is sensible to those defending it. The answers to the questions am asking apply only to that view - so I can only speculate on what those answers might be for the person holding a UR view as no one hear has articulated a direct response.

However, this post does illustrate my point very well. In order to defend the UR position, one has to undermine so many other fundamental truths that it becomes impossible apparently to articulate anything sensibly about other aspects of one's faith other than repeat that God is God and one's sound assurance that UR must be true. So one has to abandon ideas like Good cannot create evil, which is denied by suggestion God set about to create imperfect creatures and put them in an imperfect world knowing that at some future point He could have them all (and creation) evolve into perfection. And that is but one attack on the foundations of Christian theology that the UR side has made and refuses to address or defend.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I never said God Created Evil, and as for the rest of your post, IMO it is nothing more than nonsense, created by the imaginations of mens carnal minds, trying to interpret those scriptures you listed. That is something you have been taught by the church and NOT by The Spirit of God. So we have nothing more to say.

So you believe there is something called "Evil" which exists, no beginning and no end, just like God?
(which BTW am certain was one of only two possibilities resulting from your UR position)

And while it is denied, imperfection represents the corruption of or in another way of looking at it something "less good". So even if one claims God did not make whatever one apparently imagines "Evil" is, your view of creation (and His plan) still has God creating something less than perfect. So you still owe an answer on either what prevented God from doing His best or why He would choose not to do His best.

 

[Hillsage]

I remember when I first started thinking 'God was somewhat responsible for evil' either directly or at least indirectly because of His omniscience. At first I also wondered if it was even a thought one should be allowed to have. But in the many years subsequent to that time of honest reflection, I've come to realize there's plenty of scriptures proving God isn't as worried about evil as carnal minded man is. So while 'carnal minded thinking' might demand 'perfection of God's plan from its beginning' instead of 'perfection as His intended end', scripture doesn't support it and carnal minded thinking will never see the truth that not even all UR believers may hold. As for me EVIL has its origin in God.
He created the tree of evil and is an 'accomplice at the least', and the 'creator at the most' as one might see in the following verse.

GEN 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Job of yesterday, understood what most today do not;

JOB 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

God assumes responsibility for that which man doesn't not even begin to understand...as is proven here....not the verse, but the posts of those who 'think they know'.

AMO 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Indeed as the sage of old said concerning the God of all creation; "There is no doer but God!" He will assume all responsibility for His creation. And in the end He will receive all the Glory.

 

[Astropolis]

Personally I think there are two ideas which we have to consider here. Firstly we have the doctrine of the fall, that in some sense the entity which we refer to as the devil rejected God, and that in some sense the human race joined his gang. There are a lot of details that I don't know here, and scripture only gives us some broad hints, but the way I have often put it is this:

Remember that we are at the crash site, not in the first class lounge.

Absolutely everything we see is conditioned by the effects of the fall. Could God have done better and created an unfallen universe? And if he had would we still have free will?

This of course leads into the second idea. Let me ask a question: Is God controlled by time, or time controlled by God? Think about it. Or as a character in one of my novels puts it:

Jane shook her head. ‘'Dear God, please make it so it didn't happen.” I caught myself saying that after it was all over, and it was wrong. You can't put right what's happened, but if you turn it the other way around, it's God saying, “Dear Jane, please make it so it doesn't happen to someone else.” So I decided to put my powers of ratbaggery and scheming at the disposal of Space Fleet and do some good with them. They were quite nice about it, and tolerate my creative interpretations of regulations, most of the time.’

Is it meaningful to pray "Dear God, make it so it didn't happen?" Now if God is, as I believe, outside time and capable of putting right things that have happened, and also capable of knowing our perfectly free decisions before we make them, it's not that difficult for God to juggle things so that everyone is saved, even though all our decisions are perfectly free. As CSL put it, "You can't understand the relations of choice and time until you are beyond both."

For me taking on board the idea of God being outside time removed the last objections to UR.

Of course this is only my best effort at understanding something very complex, and I am not a theologian by training, just a fellow pilgrim who is trying to see where we are going.

 

[2KnowHim]

So while 'carnal minded thinking' might demand 'perfection of God's plan from its beginning' instead of 'perfection as His intended end', scripture doesn't support it and carnal minded thinking will never see the truth that not even all UR believers may hold. As for me EVIL has its origin in God.

What he said, because I couldn't have said it any better.

 

[James Is Back]

As for me EVIL has its origin in God.
He created the tree of evil

How can a tree be evil it's not even alive? The tree that God told A&E not to eat from was not evil. The act that A&E did is what caused evil to be spewed into the world.

And I resent that you would even suggest that evil has it's origin in God forgetting the fact that Lucifer was the one that introduced evil into existence.

What God ever created was good it says so in Genesis. If he created evil then there is a contradiction in the Bible and the Bible has no contradictions.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I never said God Created Evil, and as for the rest of your post, IMO it is nothing more than nonsense, created by the imaginations of mens carnal minds, trying to interpret those scriptures you listed. That is something you have been taught by the church and NOT by The Spirit of God. So we have nothing more to say.

I remember when I first started thinking 'God was somewhat responsible for evil' either directly or at least indirectly because of His omniscience. At first I also wondered if it was even a thought one should be allowed to have. But in the many years subsequent to that time of honest reflection, I've come to realize there's plenty of scriptures proving God isn't as worried about evil as carnal minded man is. So while 'carnal minded thinking' might demand 'perfection of God's plan from its beginning' instead of 'perfection as His intended end', scripture doesn't support it and carnal minded thinking will never see the truth that not even all UR believers may hold. As for me EVIL has its origin in God.

What he said, because I couldn't have said it any better.

Am confused. First a claim is made that one never said God Created Evil and then you proudly endorse someone saying God Created Evil.
Just so am clear, I know Hillsage believes this lie, is this your belief as well?