Universal reconciliation

[2KnowHim]

I would'nt Hillsage, in fact this is something I posted in another thread concerning this subject.

What if I was to say that....When God says this:
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

He is speaking of The Finished Work of What Christ has accomplished through His death, burial, and resurrection, ...and not Adam's beginning in the Garden. That God is seeing All things Finished and always speaks out of this place as Finished and being ,"Good, Very Good", rather than speaking of the beginning of something. He calls those things "That be not" as though they were.

There are two reasons why I believe this:
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

All these scriptures here in Gen. Declare something that is Finished "Before" it was actually in the earth.
What is a plant before it Grows? It is SEED. God's Word is The Seed, and Gen.1 is a SEED bed for Truth.
This is also further proof of UR. IMU.

 

[2KnowHim]

Gen1:1 In God His Creation is secure.
Gen1:2 We see that darkness has now covered the deep, (the soul), I believe this is where the Garden senerio and Adam's disobedience took place...Hence the reason the Darkness is here.
Gen1:3 He speaks forth The Light, (Which is Christ) His Word, But it is not found in the earth until the 4th day.
Jesus appeared on the 4th day in the earth, 4,000 yrs. later.
Gen1:26,27..Let us make mankind in our image and our likeness, and let them have dominion over the....etc.
The image of God is Jesus Christ.

This is a very short explanation of Gen1:.
And in Gen2: with Adam it begins to make manifest.
But it is Finished in The Last Adam.

Gen.1 is NOT The Creation of this world we live in, But The Plan of Redemption of All mankind from the beginning to the End.

 

[Hillsage]

Gen1:1 In God His Creation is secure.
Gen1:2 We see that darkness has now covered the deep, (the soul), I believe this is where the Garden senerio and Adam's disobedience took place...Hence the reason the Darkness is here.
Gen1:3 He speaks forth The Light, (Which is Christ) His Word, But it is not found in the earth until the 4th day.
Jesus appeared on the 4th day in the earth, 4,000 yrs. later.
Gen1:26,27..Let us make mankind in our image and our likeness, and let them have dominion over the....etc.
The image of God is Jesus Christ.

This is a very short explanation of Gen1:.
And in Gen2: with Adam it begins to make manifest.
But it is Finished in The Last Adam.

Gen.1 is NOT The Creation of this world we live in, But The Plan of Redemption of All mankind from the beginning to the End.

I actually heard this POV before quite a few years back and it made perfect sense to me. Chapter one was speaking those things into existance, and ch 2 was Spirit taking 'the spoken word' and physically 'forming' them into a finished state. He/the Spirit is still working on me BTW.

This understanding also explains a paradox in scripture concerning the Heb. word tohuw;

8414 tohuw: a desolation (of surface),i.e. desert; fig. a worthless thing; adv. in vain
0922 bohuw: a vacuity,i.e. (superficialy) an undistinguishable ruin

GEN 1:2 And the earth was without form/tohuw, and void/bohuw; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

ISA 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain/tohuw, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Notice how MIStranslators hid this fact by not translating tohuw consistently.

So is a thing created/spoken perfect, or does perfection come at the end of a formative process? Well , let's just look at the Lord Jesus. Many, many, many here, over the years falsely believe and say Jesus was born perfect, which is unscriptural. He was born 'sinless' and became perfect upon dying.

HEB 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

 

[2KnowHim]

Yes, exactly..in fact Bullinger actually translates the word "was" in that scripture as "Became" or "Came to pass" waste and void.

 

[2KnowHim]

There's just so many things that differ from Ch.1 and 2 that it's hard not to notice.
ch1. mankind ch.2 no man
ch1. created ch.2 formed and made
ch1. beast of the earth ch.2 beast of the field
ch1. male and female ch.2 man and woman
etc. etc. I could go on and on about Gen. 1&2

 

[Hillsage]

Yes, exactly..in fact Bullinger actually translates the word "was" in that scripture as "Became" or "Came to pass" waste and void.

You're right. I never noticed that before. Just went an looked in my Companion Study Bible, and there it was. Good ole E.W. was pretty sharp.

 

[jerry kelso]

You need to read closer. I was a ET believer all my life clear up until the time I said; "Up yours God, I'd rather go to your eternal Hell with all my friends than be a hypocrite of a believer like 'most' "Christians" I knew." And you know nothing about how I came TO BELIEVE in UR. I was a saved ETer several years before even being exposed to UR. And then it took me 10 years of studying and seeking and praying with NO INTERNET in existence to even help find 'the truth' like today. All that time I was just HOPING it was true, before I was completely sold out to believing UR over ET.

If that were true, you'd be asking questions to believe in it. You aren't, you are fighting against it and consistently proving to me you don't understand it. That's why we aren't going to talk much longer Jerry.

Since you've quoted it several times lets just start with your first misunderstanding of the scripture.

2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

The word “approved” in the Greek refers to being ‘tested’ or assayed, as to its being real. You are not approved just because you fight for an adherence to a your statement of faith. You are ‘approved’ if ‘what you talk/believe’ manifests when you are ‘tested’ to compromise in your ‘walk of faith’.

In jail ministry I used to frequently hear from the “Christian” inmates, who had nothing but time to study bibles and memorize scriptures to 'fight' with doctrinally. They often told me that I wasn’t as “approved studying the word” as they were. I told them they weren’t “proving” themselves of anything but the arrogance of believing that they wouldn’t go back to being drunks/drug addicts/thieves the minute they left the jail and went back to the sin bin which they didn’t even have access to ‘in jail’, to be tempted with! No matter how big their talk was, I was constantly reminded as to the truth of my words and a CORRECT understanding of 2Tim 2:15, every time one of them got out, and a few months later they were right back in.

Walking the walk is ‘approved’ Christianity. Scripture approved of the son who spoke it wrong and walked it right ‘in his father’s vineyard, but scripture condemns the son who spoke it right and walked it wrong, by never going..

Many, you included, incorrectly think contending doctrinally for 'the talk' is 'the walk' which only proves to me that they really aren't "rightly handling the word of truth" as well as they think.

I don't think it will affect an ETer's salvation believing God is Lord of an eternal torture worse than Hitler's Auschwitz either.

As regarding your "abide in Christ" comment, I have two things to say.
1. Where is that at scripturally.
2.You never answered my last post asking you to define the difference between "Christ in you" versus "you in Christ". Which one supports your unscriptural "abide in Christ" comment?

I didn't read any farther in your post because to correct so much peripheral error IMO, simply takes too much time. I thought I proved that last time. So, if your post won't fit on 'the screen' it's probably more 'a pity' than it is "pithy", as you think.

And, as I said earlier, if you don't don't really have questions FOR UR I'm just not interested in fighting against your misunderstandings of it.

hillsage,

1. I am not fighting against it and I have asked questions and that is why I studied it out, so you are just stating an opinion.

2. I don't adhere to my statement of faith but to the scriptures by proper hermeneutics. That is another opinion of yours.

3. I am not trying to prove that I am God's gift to hermeneutics but I do believe they are important.
I believe in walking the walk and not just being a professor for their are plenty of those around. Another opinion that you are trying to claim as being true.

4. The talk is the walk belief is another opinion of yours. I could definitely say the same thing about you because that is why you seem to stereotype everyone.

5. Hitler's Auschwitz was not eternal punishment for they died and those people were completely innocent of his barbarianism. We cannot fully understand God's wrath and judgement but we know it is real. One could make your argument with any form of punishment even if it wasn't forever. So your argument holds no water and your comparison don't like up with God's judgement.

6. We are in Christ because we are born of God spiritually and God is in us because his seed is in us. Read 1 John 3:6-10. John 15 talks about the Lord being the vine and we are the branches and bringing forth fruit. If you want something more specific then just adequately state what you believe and what you think my objection or wrong thinking is on it.

7. What is a pity is the whole timber of your statements and attitude seems to be somewhat combative in the wrong manner. You said that I didn't know how you came to this conclusion even though you told me about your bad experience and were mad at God before you said you started praying and studying about this subject. I could say that your mind was clouded by your anger and that was your goal to prove that the ET position was wrong but, I won't.

I have explained the scriptures about reconciliation of the world to Christ and you cannot answer or rebut them. If you think you can then you are more than welcomed. I have also rebutted your position of why it cannot be right according to the scriptures about death, resurrection of the just and the unjust of which you have not rebutted. Until you can do that you have no foundation to stand on. Jerry Kelso

 

[brixken7]

I hope that UR is the case, that even though Justice will be served to those in Hell, people in that place can still accept the grace of God, and with time, all of mankind will be in Heaven.

However I just hope that is the case. I'm not sure 100% that UR is real, therefore I don't talk about it to others (of course the fear of being called a heretic helps to). Of course since I have hope, Im not 100% convicted that ET is true.

I think it is ok to have an "unsure" belief when it comes to certain beliefs within Christianity.

"I think it is ok to have an "unsure" belief when it comes to certain beliefs within Christianity."

Well, perhaps you need to do like the apostle Peter and ask Christ "help thou mine unbelief" (Mark 9:24).

And while I would agree with you that it's quite OK to be unsure and doubtful concerning many Christian beliefs, I don't see that you have any choice when we are considering God's plainly stated plan -- and promise -- to save all of His creatures. In this case, uncertainty, disbelief, and pessimism is sin. For proof of this we have the example of how the Israelites who had been sent to spy out the Promised Land, came back with a very gloomy, pessimistic report. You can read of this in Numbers 13:25-33. Basically, their message was that the land promised by God was impossible to take because of its "strong" defenders and "very great" walled cities. What God had promised them, they considered unachievable and absolutely impossible to obtain! To them there was NO WAY that Israel could enter and take the land that God had promised them! But this lack of faith in God's promise had very serious repercussions, even more serious than their constant complaining after leaving Egypt, and even more serious than their idolatrous worshiping of their molten calf! The Bible clearly states that it was this lack of faith, this unbelief -- and the unbelief of those who heard their message -- that resulted in God (in the Person of Christ) not granting to them entrance into this Promised Land (Hebrews 3:18-19; 4:6,11).

Today, in much the same negative vein, we hear religious leaders and Bible teachers claim that God is incapable of bringing us all into the Promised Land. And like the reasoning of old, it's usually based upon a faulty premise that we cannot count on God to do it all, so it's up to us. Some even claim that God has no desire to save everyone, or that He is hampered by man's supposed "free will" and needs "our permission" to save us! The result is the same. The pessimism and unbelief that existed amongst God's people in ancient Israel, is prevalent today throughout the modern churches, churches composed of people who likewise claim the 'Promised Land' -- be it heaven or a New Earth -- will not be attainable for most people! The truth is that if we want God to save us in this life, then we need to trust in Him, have faith in Him, rely upon Him, and most of all -- love and BELIEVE Him. Our salvation (in this life) is dependent upon it.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I don't think anyone is saying that God would make anything less than Good, but what happens to that Good after it has been made subject to the elements is entirely different. Why would God feel the need to Repent? But He did.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Sure I believe it has been said several times and your most recent post 681-682 repeats it again and then Hill sage follows that agreeing with you.

So while I am glad one has found a way to view these scriptures so that view supports your pre-assumption of what God must do for everyone - the view still creates exactly the dilemma for you that I suggested several times now and that you just denied. It means either God intentionally does not do His utter best in creating man and the world in the beginning (needs to evolve into something better/finished in some future "end" as both UR posters suggested 681) or something prevented Him from doing His best. Neither of those views of God is acceptable to most orthodox Christians. It contradicts the language of refering to what happens

The inequality one suggests exists (and needs to exist in order for your explanation of how to resolve is even necessary) is resolved by the traditional teaching that this is not a Creation story, but two different stories (and because they a different stories = different views) handed down to us from Jewish antiquity. In order too make the case that your explanation is necessary - you would need to address what makes it necessary to see that record as One complete Creation story rather than two independent stories and why would do less than He could for us or what could have kept Him from it.

 

[2KnowHim]

Neither of those views of God is acceptable to most orthodox Christians.

Well, I guess you could say that I'm anything but orthodox, But neither was Jesus.

the view still creates exactly the dilemma for you that I suggested several times now and that you just denied.

I see no dilemma, in fact it makes everthing flow in harmony, I think the dilemma lies with you.
And for this I am sorry that you can't see or hear what The Spirit of The Word says, you are truly missing out on the Beautiful Plan of The Father. And I don't know what your talking about me denying.

It means either God intentionally does not do His utter best in creating man and the world in the beginning (needs to evolve into something better/finished in some future "end" as both UR posters suggested 681) or something prevented Him from doing His best.

What you don't seem to understand is that, The Very Best of God is His Son, His image and His likeness... and He gave us that when He gave us Jesus The Christ, That has always been the plan of God from the beginning.

you would need to address what makes it necessary to see that record as One complete Creation story rather than two independent stories and why would do less than He could for us or what could have kept Him from it.

If I understood what you are talking about here, then I would be more than happy to address it.
Gen. 1 through 2:4 is NOT the Creation story Orthodox teaches, But the Plan of Redemption through His image His Son.
These things can only be revealed by The Spirit of God.

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Well, I guess you could say that I'm anything but orthodox, But neither was Jesus.



I see no dilemma, in fact it makes everthing flow in harmony, I think the dilemma lies with you.
And for this I am sorry that you can't see or hear what The Spirit of The Word says, you are truly missing out on the Beautiful Plan of The Father. And I don't know what your talking about me denying.



What you don't seem to understand is that, The Very Best of God is His Son, His image and His likeness... and He gave us that when He gave us Jesus The Christ, That has always been the plan of God from the beginning.



If I understood what you are talking about here, then I would be more than happy to address it.
Gen. 1 through 2:4 is NOT the Creation story Orthodox teaches, But the Plan of Redemption through His image His Son.
These things can only be revealed by The Spirit of God.

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Again making my point. One cannot talk about redemption - redemption of mankind in this case, when by your own omission mankind was created in a state that needs to evolve to - each at our pace - rather than our being born into a state because of some original sin that we need to be redeemed to. So the world as God originally created can be seen as perhaps good, it is not the best as, by your own admission, His plan from the beginning was to start lower and make it better. So it is then true that as originally created God could have made it better, but according to you guys, chooses not to. I simply asked why.

By redeem in this case we mean to regain possession of something which was lost - which clearly the Bible indicates in the creation stories mankind lost something. Other references from scripture also refer to Jesus restoring, which is unsupported in a view which says the plan from the beginning was to make everything better eventually over time. As is the idea of sin continually creating a loss in each of us individually that we need to be restored from, rather than a lesson He wants us to learn/evolve from.

I can also see the connection with UR this view creates, making it necessary. If one supposes God created man imperfect and needing to learn/evolve/grow into something better then rather than looking at our possible resurrection to Glory as restoring individuals to a state for which we were originally created, it can be seen as just a continuing evolving process where individuals "mature" at different rates. Hell then becomes, just as I stated many times already - just a place for those needing more time than what was given in this life to "mature". This describes an evolutionary process rather than a restoration of mankind. And it suggests a different purpose for creating mankind than the one traditional Christians give.

 

[2KnowHim]

Dr. let me speak to you on another level for a moment, and to your heart...I don't know you or if you have children, but no matter, neither do I.
But I am aware that even as a parent you would want to keep your children from harms way all the time, but you know that without them experiencing something for themselves that is just not possible.

When a child is told for the first time not to touch a hot pot or it will burn them, do you think that they have any idea of what burn means? And the very fact that you told them not to, is more than likely they will try it anyhow. But you would do everything in your power to prevent them right? But on the other hand, once they have been burned not only do they survive it, but they won't do it again, and they come to respect and love you even more because they know now that you were only trying to protect them, not tempt them. And of course your there to mend their wounds and to love them back to health.

This little lesson is not only good but very good when it comes to the two envolved. The child now gets to partake of your wisdom and your love, even though it was a hard lesson it carries great rewards for you and the child as they mature.
And through the yrs. of imparting wisdom and love to the child he/she now takes on the very traits of the one who taught them all their lives....You, The Father. But I now ask you this, how far could your child go away from you, and your teaching them, that you would NOT have anything to do with them anymore or disown them? Or for that matter, what would it take for you as a Father, to burn them for all eternity because they would not submit unto your Love? I know that sounds rediculous, but please here me for a moment. If you couldn't do this because of your mercy on them, wouldn't that make you more merciful than God?

Now apply this to our Heavenly Father and how great His wisdom and Love is compared to ours as parents. Some lessons are necessary, some can be told but others have to be experienced. God has a plan, a marvelous plan for All of us.
But don't let the process that you see around you hinder you from seeing the end of the plan.

As you can only see what you would hope for your child in the end, God see's it for us all and is absolutely certain of the end results.

 

[brixken7]

Dr. let me speak to you on another level for a moment, and to your heart...I don't know you or if you have children, but no matter, neither do I.
But I am aware that even as a parent you would want to keep your children from harms way all the time, but you know that without them experiencing something for themselves that is just not possible.

When a child is told for the first time not to touch a hot pot or it will burn them, do you think that they have any idea of what burn means? And the very fact that you told them not to, is more than likely they will try it anyhow. But you would do everything in your power to prevent them right? But on the other hand, once they have been burned not only do they survive it, but they won't do it again, and they come to respect and love you even more because they know now that you were only trying to protect them, not tempt them. And of course your there to mend their wounds and to love them back to health.

This little lesson is not only good but very good when it comes to the two envolved. The child now gets to partake of your wisdom and your love, even though it was a hard lesson it carries great rewards for you and the child as they mature.
And through the yrs. of imparting wisdom and love to the child he/she now takes on the very traits of the one who taught them all their lives....You, The Father. But I now ask you this, how far could your child go away from you, and your teaching them, that you would NOT have anything to do with them anymore or disown them? Or for that matter, what would it take for you as a Father, to burn them for all eternity because they would not submit unto your Love? I know that sounds rediculous, but please here me for a moment. If you couldn't do this because of your mercy on them, wouldn't that make you more merciful than God?

Now apply this to our Heavenly Father and how great His wisdom and Love is compared to ours as parents. Some lessons are necessary, some can be told but others have to be experienced. God has a plan, a marvelous plan for All of us.
But don't let the process that you see around you hinder you from seeing the end of the plan.

As you can only see what you would hope for your child in the end, God see's it for us all and is absolutely certain of the end results.

"The child now gets to partake of your wisdom and your love, even though it was a hard lesson it carries great rewards for you and the child as they mature." -- 2KnowHim

Very true, 2KnowHim. And perhaps mankind's greatest lesson -- though it is indeed a "hard lesson" -- is to learn humility. Thus we read in Ecclesiastes 1:13 and 3:10 (Concordant version and the 1599 Geneva Bible) that..."It is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it." From these verses it appears that God's main purpose in creating evil (Isaiah 45:7; Job 2:10) is to teach us humility, which is his first step in bringing about a spiritual conversion. Indeed, "Humility precedes honor" (Proverbs 15:33; 18:12) "and those that walk in pride He is able to abase" (Daniel 4:37). There are no exceptions! Everyone exalting themselves shall be humbled (Matthew 23:12), "everyone" (Luke 18:14), which is through affliction and humiliation. In other words, Christ is teaching here a universal conversion!

And so, 2KnowHim, God's children will not only obtain His "wisdom and love" that you spoke of, but His humility. For even God "humbles Himself" (Psalm 113:6)!

 

[2KnowHim]

As I was reading your post on Humility, I was pondering the impact, even in the natural as we raise our kids. If theres one thing that would be very weighty it is just that. For example imagine your child growing up in pride and trying to apply for a job, thinking that the world owns them something, I don't think that would work would it.

And what of the impact of relating to someone else's burdens, I don't think that would be possible either if you were not walking in humility....just a few things that came to mind in the natural, not to mention the spiritual implications.

Very good, Brixken, thank you.

 

[Hillsage]

When a child is told for the first time not to touch a hot pot or it will burn them, do you think that they have any idea of what burn means? And the very fact that you told them not to, is more than likely they will try it anyhow. But you would do everything in your power to prevent them right?

Maybe not. I would certainly let them stick their hand in really warm water which I'd said was 'hot' (relative to cold). And, even hot enough for them to 'quickly pull back' and learn, but not so hot it actually harmed. That's is also my 'God's idea' behind "every man shall be salted with fire". And only those of lessor views of God want that 'fire' to temporally 'cleanse them' but eternally 'harm most'. Thankfully my view of God does not think like orthodoxy in that regard.

 

[Der Alte]

"The child now gets to partake of your wisdom and your love, even though it was a hard lesson it carries great rewards for you and the child as they mature." -- 2KnowHim

Very true, 2KnowHim. And perhaps mankind's greatest lesson -- though it is indeed a "hard lesson" -- is to learn humility. Thus we read in Ecclesiastes 1:13 and 3:10 (Concordant version and the 1599 Geneva Bible) that..."It is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it." From these verses it appears that God's main purpose in creating evil (Isaiah 45:7; Job 2:10) is to teach us humility, which is his first step in bringing about a spiritual conversion. Indeed, "Humility precedes honor" (Proverbs 15:33; 18:12) "and those that walk in pride He is able to abase" (Daniel 4:37). There are no exceptions! Everyone exalting themselves shall be humbled (Matthew 23:12), "everyone" (Luke 18:14), which is through affliction and humiliation. In other words, Christ is teaching here a universal conversion!

And so, 2KnowHim, God's children will not only obtain His "wisdom and love" that you spoke of, but His humility. For even God "humbles Himself" (Psalm 113:6)!

Houston we have a little problem The word translated "evil" does not mean evil.

KJV Ecc 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail [עִנְיָן] hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

JPS Ecc 1:13 And I applied my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven; it is a sore task [עִנְיָן] that God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised therewith.

KJV Ecc 3:10 I have seen the travail [עִנְיָן], which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
H6045

JPS Ecc 3:10 I have seen the task [עִנְיָן] which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised therewith.

עִנְיָן ‛inyân in-yawn'
From H6031; ado, that is, (generally) employment or (specifically) an affair: - business, travail.​

 

[OliviaMay]

A loving parent does not torture their children for eternity. So if God loves us there is no torture for eternity.

I am quite sure all go to heaven eventually.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Vision God gave me about hell: People who do not accept Jesus Christ go to a place on earth where they are literally stuck; fully conscious but they cannot interact. In this time period they are forced to go mad or to reach out to the God they shunned while alive. If they accept Him in this time period, He is their consolation during their time of 'purgatory' for lack of a better word. And they will be accepted into His kingdom when the earth if finally destroyed. If they do not accept Him after this 'second' chance, they will be annihilated with no chance of return (Lake of Fire?).

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Dr. let me speak to you on another level for a moment, and to your heart...I don't know you or if you have children, but no matter, neither do I.
But I am aware that even as a parent you would want to keep your children from harms way all the time, but you know that without them experiencing something for themselves that is just not possible.

When a child is told for the first time not to touch a hot pot or it will burn them, do you think that they have any idea of what burn means? And the very fact that you told them not to, is more than likely they will try it anyhow. But you would do everything in your power to prevent them right? But on the other hand, once they have been burned not only do they survive it, but they won't do it again, and they come to respect and love you even more because they know now that you were only trying to protect them, not tempt them. And of course your there to mend their wounds and to love them back to health.

This little lesson is not only good but very good when it comes to the two envolved. The child now gets to partake of your wisdom and your love, even though it was a hard lesson it carries great rewards for you and the child as they mature.
And through the yrs. of imparting wisdom and love to the child he/she now takes on the very traits of the one who taught them all their lives....You, The Father. But I now ask you this, how far could your child go away from you, and your teaching them, that you would NOT have anything to do with them anymore or disown them? Or for that matter, what would it take for you as a Father, to burn them for all eternity because they would not submit unto your Love? I know that sounds rediculous, but please here me for a moment. If you couldn't do this because of your mercy on them, wouldn't that make you more merciful than God?

Now apply this to our Heavenly Father and how great His wisdom and Love is compared to ours as parents. Some lessons are necessary, some can be told but others have to be experienced. God has a plan, a marvelous plan for All of us.
But don't let the process that you see around you hinder you from seeing the end of the plan.

As you can only see what you would hope for your child in the end, God see's it for us all and is absolutely certain of the end results.

You realize by speaking to me "on another level" that we have avoided answering any of the questions raised concerning the discord these thoughts raise by saying God created a less than perfect world and populated it with less than perfect beings in order to then let it all evolve with His assistance into a better place. So as long as we acknowledge that for whatever reason, no one wants to address this, we can move on. Please do not attempt to claim again this view does not make it so, because that is just denying the reality of the claim one makes concerning both creation and God's intention.

Do I think there is purpose in allowing pain and suffering - sure and if that were not so then God would not allow suffering to exist at all. Learning is also just one such purpose (for I can think of several) for suffering - which typically is addressed as you have with physical pain. Which is essentially the point being made here. Yeah I get that and it is an interesting point for the UR supporter to make. The claim then is that God must, as Father of us all, abolish all suffering, because once the lesson is learned of course no real father in allowing this as a "lesson" would allow the suffering to continue for his child once the lesson is learned. But is it true that learning is the only reason for suffering? Of course not.

The problem then with trying to make the connection from this nice, sweet, emotional appeal to one reason for suffering, is that suffering must also exist for other reasons besides our individual benefit in helping us learn something. Since God also allows that type of suffering too, it must also be Good and Glorify Him that it be so, that all types of suffering exist, even if we cannot see how it possibly could be true that it is Good and for His Glory - it still must be so BECAUSE He allows it and He is Good - even though the person experiencing suffering could receive no lesson from it. So to dismiss the idea of an eternalness to the fate of the damned because their suffering serves no positive benefit for them is to deny that are other reasons for suffering.

 

[2KnowHim]

You realize by speaking to me "on another level" that we have avoided answering any of the questions raised concerning the discord these thoughts raise by saying God created a less than perfect world and populated it with less than perfect beings in order to then let it all evolve with His assistance into a better place.

Tell me Dr. how do you understand these verses....
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

So as long as we acknowledge that for whatever reason, no one wants to address this, we can move on.

We have addressed everything you have brought up, But we cannot make you hear what The Spirit is saying.
And if Jesus Himself learned by the things He suffered, what makes you think that we won't or don't have to?

The problem then with trying to make the connection from this nice, sweet, emotional appeal to one reason for suffering, is that suffering must also exist for other reasons besides our individual benefit in helping us learn something.

I agree there are other sufferings in this world besides what I am talking about in Christ, But, it is because of Carnal minds, and the lust of the flesh.
But that has nothing to do with The Sufferings of Christ, that I thought we were talking about. "To be made into His image".