Today's Ruling

[HannahT]

I saw this today, and I have to say I agree with him. I realize he is NOT a popular character in some circles, but I don't care...lol!

I see his definition of 'culture' within and outside of the church today.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Its so sad to see so many christians actually debating this issue because its clear in the bible in many versus. But so many are cherry picking and twisting things like "Well Jesus Himself did not say homosexuality was a sin so its not then!". What about God? Are you saying anything God said is does not count? The Word is God and God is the Word. So to say only Jesus words counts is blasphemy as far as I am concerned. Yes we know alot of the old laws are null and void because Jesus died on the cross so we wouldn't have to live by the old ways. But it doesn't mean God is for anything now and lets anyone into heaven. Because if that is the case then pedophiles, killers, rapists, liars, thieves are also going to heaven. And by that I mean people that say they are christian but still stay with their old lifestyle of murder, rape...etc. Obviously its different for those that become christian, repent of their ways and change for the better, they go to heaven.

Just like those that only know how to say "Let he without sin cast the first stone!" (they ignore the part about correction) or those that leave christianity because of peer pressure of what others might think of them if they are honest. Or those that leave because of other christians. We call them luke-warm christians. Sure they believe in Jesus no doubt, but when put to the test they fail it. To be fair being a christian is not easy in todays world where its getting harder to be one with the world breathing down your neck. But the bible says we will be hated because of His name. He died on the cross for our sins. Yet we complain when have to carry the our own cross and "be hated" by those who dislike our beliefs. Really? I mean persecution in america against christians is NOT that bad compared to alot of places where they kill you or mame you (and your family).

But again the bible says many things about this. Such as in the end:
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Or when it says many will try to enter but few will get in. This applies to all those who in todays world are taking stands against what is biblicaly sinful. In revelations it says in the end days this stuff will be worse. People will want ear ticklers (such as those who support world views) because it makes them feel less pressured. People will follow wrong people. Even the anti-christ will be followed by some. Brothers will turn on brothers. Sons on mothers...etc. I see it more and more every day. Especially since this ruling. The past few days have really opened up my eyes to how the christian world has become. I look back at my life and am thankful I went back on course after I had gotten far off of it or I possibly would have been like these people.

Now before people say "Are you judging other christians or if they are christian?". Heck no. Gods to judge that since I can't see someones heart. I'm simply pointing out what the bible talks about in terms of how the world is today. Thats all. People are free to live, believe, do whatever they want. None are perfect. I've got my own struggles.

 

[JuiceBoxxed]

I have some thoughts on this, but first I want to ask what has fundamentally changed with this ruling? Under the law of the US, what specific things does this ruling change in any State of the Union for any gay or lesbian couple?

 

[HannahT]

I have some thoughts on this, but first I want to ask what has fundamentally changed with this ruling? Under the law of the US, what specific things does this ruling change in any State of the Union for any gay or lesbian couple?

The only thing that I can see is the privileges the government allows traditional married couples. Other the government given privileges? Nothing else that I can think of.

 

[DZoolander]

If 'Raca' was an Aramaic word for 'homo' or something like that, like one translation of the Peshitta text indicates, then maybe he did mention it. Calling someone that would be considered a slander. But Jesus did endorse the Torah. But I was more interested in your beliefs about Jesus in general.

My bad - I assumed you meant my beliefs about what Jesus may have thought in the context of this discussion - in which my answer would fairly be "I have no idea - he never mentioned it."

As for general opinions - I'm kinda surprised that you would ask. We've gone over my general opinions about the overall value of the Bible/whether it should have the standing it does quite a few times on this board. If you'd like to have a general discussion about it again - let's not segue the thread into something else. Let's make a new thread

 

[Thunder Peel]

The LGBT community has been marginalized, and lied about since I can remember. I remember as a child people claiming that homosexuals are pedophiles too. They used that excuse to scare people away from them. They repeated it so often that even today I still hear people believing it. They knew it was lie, and said it anyway. Now people actually believe it they repeated it so often. There is no biblical justification for that. None.

That is not about upholding God's word. It's also not a competition about whom does it worse than the other. Where in God's word does it state that when someone is ugly to me I can be just as ugly back? You won't find it there. So, claiming that you see more venom coming from their direction? It doesn't work.

The delivery of God's word is just as important as the word itself. Do you seriously think God doesn't care about that aspect? I can't believe you feel that way.

I realize there are ugly character's on the other side of this issue, but pretend that church's side doesn't have anything to answer to in that department is naïve at best. Justifying bad behavior using the bible, and claiming you are doing to uphold is word is sin. Plain and simple!

The LGBT community has been accused of everything under the sun by so called Christians, and they have been blamed for all kinds of ills too. If you don't feel that is hateful...I don't know what to tell you. People state they are unbelievers, and as so they are not be to judged as believers...and yet they are. That also goes against the bible.

Christians can stand up for their beliefs that are based in scripture without acting and saying things like a reviler does. Hinting that God would pat you on the head and tell you its okay because someone used 'venom' towards you? Please.

It is possible to stand up for your beliefs, and not come across as some child throwing a tantrum. Many Christians are doing just that today, but sadly the ones that act ugly garner more income for the media outlets...so they use them.

You're missing the point. This is very much about upholding God's word because the government is now telling us that this sinful lifestyle is okay and should be embraced. I would feel the same way if they legalized theft, murder or any other sin that the Bible clearly speaks against. I have several gay friends whom I love and care about, yet I don't approve of their lifestyle and they know what I believe. There's obviously no call for hateful words or actions but simply saying it's a sin and that it shouldn't be embraced is hardly a harsh thing to say.

The gay community essentially takes ANY criticism, no matter how gently or lovingly it's delivered, as some form of hate speech or bigotry. On Friday I posted the scripture from Romans 1:26-28 on my Facebook page. The very first comment was from a longtime friend who identifies as gay and his response simply said, "You can go f*** yourself". He de-friended me and never responded to any of the comments. Now tell me: which one of us showed more intolerance and hate?

 

[JuiceBoxxed]

You're missing the point. This is very much about upholding God's word because the government is now telling us that this sinful lifestyle is okay and should be embraced.

Just a sec. Doesn't God's word tell you that Government officials are sovereign over you and that God has appointed your leaders? Last time I read Romans I'm sure I remember reading that somewhere.

 

[Hetta]

Just a sec. Doesn't God's word tell you that Government officials are sovereign over you and that God has appointed your leaders? Last time I read Romans I'm sure I remember reading that somewhere.

It's Romans 13:1-5. I've been quoting it a lot lately.

 

[Hetta]

You're missing the point. This is very much about upholding God's word because the government is now telling us that this sinful lifestyle is okay and should be embraced. I would feel the same way if they legalized theft, murder or any other sin that the Bible clearly speaks against. I have several gay friends whom I love and care about, yet I don't approve of their lifestyle and they know what I believe. There's obviously no call for hateful words or actions but simply saying it's a sin and that it shouldn't be embraced is hardly a harsh thing to say.

The gay community essentially takes ANY criticism, no matter how gently or lovingly it's delivered, as some form of hate speech or bigotry. On Friday I posted the scripture from Romans 1:26-28 on my Facebook page. The very first comment was from a longtime friend who identifies as gay and his response simply said, "You can go f*** yourself". He de-friended me and never responded to any of the comments. Now tell me: which one of us showed more intolerance and hate?

Ah, you in the first place. Talking to him privately is one thing, denouncing him publicly is another. He realized that you weren't his friend and moved on. I'd have done the same.

 

[tall73]

So, you're telling me that because there is a law against sex slavery, it doesn't happen. Oh, okay. I believe you.

No, I am not telling you that at all.

I was responding to your comment about all the passion on this issue. That is because this issue was just ruled on by the court which now made homosexual marriage legal, when before it was not.

And so I said if suddenly the court made sex slavery legal, I think you would also see passion on that issue.Because, like this ruling, it would then be at the forefront of folk's attention.

Something happening, and the government giving sanction to it, are two different things.

If that's the way that most Christians think, I am not surprised and will remain utterly unmoved by their invective against SSM.

Of course it is not how Christians think. But it is how you want to style some Christians as thinking. You complained about the passion on this issue.

Any thing that involved important moral concerns where the Supreme Court is making a ruling has the potential to have "passion" surrounding it.

Your comparison was a false comparison. Many Christians are also involved in helping those in sex slavery, helping the poor, etc.

But they can still have an interest in a ruling that is being made at the national level, and can still get passionate about it.

 

[tall73]

You're missing the point. This is very much about upholding God's word because the government is now telling us that this sinful lifestyle is okay and should be embraced. I would feel the same way if they legalized theft, murder or any other sin that the Bible clearly speaks against. I have several gay friends whom I love and care about, yet I don't approve of their lifestyle and they know what I believe. There's obviously no call for hateful words or actions but simply saying it's a sin and that it shouldn't be embraced is hardly a harsh thing to say.

The gay community essentially takes ANY criticism, no matter how gently or lovingly it's delivered, as some form of hate speech or bigotry. On Friday I posted the scripture from Romans 1:26-28 on my Facebook page. The very first comment was from a longtime friend who identifies as gay and his response simply said, "You can go f*** yourself". He de-friended me and never responded to any of the comments. Now tell me: which one of us showed more intolerance and hate?

A. We are to judge those in the church, not out of the church.

B. If you are going to try to reach those who are close to you on that issue Facebook is probably not the way to go. You cannot convey tone, etc. or easily explain yourself further.

 

[tall73]

It's Romans 13:1-5. I've been quoting it a lot lately.

Yes, we should submit to the government whenever possible.

Peter also states this:
1Pe 2:12 Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.
1Pe 2:13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,
1Pe 2:14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.
1Pe 2:15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.
1Pe 2:16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.
1Pe 2:17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.


Except that we are not to submit to the government when God's command overrules it. Peter said the following when speaking to the rulers of Jerusalem:

Act 4:18 So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.
Act 4:19 But Peter and John answered them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge,
Act 4:20 for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard."

And Peter also said:

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.
1Pe 4:13 But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.
1Pe 4:14 If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.

 

[JuiceBoxxed]

It's Romans 13:1-5. I've been quoting it a lot lately.

Yes, that's the one, thanks.
I don't think I could ever quote this as authoritative text. History and laws change too much, not to mention the downright nastiness of some laws throughout history for me to put stock that this little bit of literature is inspired by a Holy and unchanging God.
Even if it happens to suit my views on a certain subject.

 

[JuiceBoxxed]

To be honest, I really don't know what to think of the ruling or what to think of some people's condemnation of it. To put it in perspective, those crying foul seem to have forgotten that there is no law against adultery, in the US at least, to my knowledge, and yet this is not only clearly one of the ten commandments but anyone who has been involved knows how painful and hurtful it is on a personal level.
I don't have a problem with 2 people of the same gender committing themselves to one another, because it clearly is not MY business what they do as consenting and rational adults. In this respect I admire the positives of all such relationships, where they are positive, and love and good willed devotion are always positive.
At the same time, it is a biological abnormality. Not only can two people of the same gender not reproduce naturally, their physiological make ups are not naturally complementary. Gay partners often adopt a mocking gender role, there is the the "male" dominant and the female receptive, but both partners being the same gender. What's more, whether one likes it or not, we are mammals, and there are certain innate benefits to a male/female partnership as opposed to same sex. A good example of this is the health of mother's milk over animal milk, specifically tailored to a growing child and obviously unavailable to a male/male union should they choose to adopt.

I don't even need to appeal to Christianity to make the argument from common sense and common observation.So while I do agree same sex couples should have certain rights, I'm split on the issue for pushing it as anything close to natural, because it clearly falls way outside of that and in my humble opinion it is wrong to indoctrinate someone that it is.

 

[DZoolander]

You're missing the point. This is very much about upholding God's word because the government is now telling us that this sinful lifestyle is okay and should be embraced. I would feel the same way if they legalized theft, murder or any other sin that the Bible clearly speaks against. I have several gay friends whom I love and care about, yet I don't approve of their lifestyle and they know what I believe. There's obviously no call for hateful words or actions but simply saying it's a sin and that it shouldn't be embraced is hardly a harsh thing to say.

The gay community essentially takes ANY criticism, no matter how gently or lovingly it's delivered, as some form of hate speech or bigotry. On Friday I posted the scripture from Romans 1:26-28 on my Facebook page. The very first comment was from a longtime friend who identifies as gay and his response simply said, "You can go f*** yourself". He de-friended me and never responded to any of the comments. Now tell me: which one of us showed more intolerance and hate?

Maybe telling him that he was basically a degenerate deserving of being burned both in this world and in the next due to who he loves might be construed as being hateful?

 

[HannahT]

You're missing the point. This is very much about upholding God's word because the government is now telling us that this sinful lifestyle is okay and should be embraced. I would feel the same way if they legalized theft, murder or any other sin that the Bible clearly speaks against. I have several gay friends whom I love and care about, yet I don't approve of their lifestyle and they know what I believe. There's obviously no call for hateful words or actions but simply saying it's a sin and that it shouldn't be embraced is hardly a harsh thing to say.

The gay community essentially takes ANY criticism, no matter how gently or lovingly it's delivered, as some form of hate speech or bigotry. On Friday I posted the scripture from Romans 1:26-28 on my Facebook page. The very first comment was from a longtime friend who identifies as gay and his response simply said, "You can go f*** yourself". He de-friended me and never responded to any of the comments. Now tell me: which one of us showed more intolerance and hate?

Your clearly missing a HUGE factor yourself!

No one can force you to agree that some lifestyle is okay, and should be embraced. All they did was legalize it. In the eyes of the law they can marry, but no where does it say you must 'embrace' the marriage. People get married all the time that aren't homosexual's, and people refuse to embrace it.

I personally don't agree with the legalization of pot for 'fun' reasons. I don't agree with people smoking up, falling asleep, and then waking up with the munchies just to repeat the pattern the next day. Some places that is legal, but I won't embrace it...and they can't make me embrace either. No one can tell me that lifestyle is good. I don't have to agree to that.

So, technically NO the government isn't telling you MUST embrace a sinful lifestyle that you can't endorse. If you choose to take it that way? That's on you, but in reality they (government) can't force you to do anything as far as that.

 

[tall73]

Your clearly missing a HUGE factor yourself!

No one can force you to agree that some lifestyle is okay, and should be embraced. All they did was legalize it. In the eyes of the law they can marry, but no where does it say you must 'embrace' the marriage. People get married all the time that aren't homosexual's, and people refuse to embrace it.

This is something worth highlighting. This is another reason I think the church should get out of the legal part of it. I refused to marry two couples (one a close relative) because I did not feel in good conscience I could endorse their marriage (both heterosexual). In the case of the family member they had very different religious backgrounds, a child was involved, so there would be disputes on how to raise the child. And they really didn't know each other long. The mother of the family member didn't seem convinced that this potential spouse was that great, based on small, but perhaps legitimate criteria. And the potential spouse didn't seem to be consistently employed, or perhaps overly responsible.

I didn't shun them or anything, and still went to the service, but I did not feel I should conduct the wedding. They still got married. It didn't work out, and the person who the mother had concerns over lived up to those concerns and more, cheating on the relative.

I suppose you could say since folks have a "right" to get married they could have claimed discrimination. In this case they obviously did not. But that is why again, I would rather churches have the right to make decisions based on what they can in good conscience bless. And leave the legal part to the state.

I personally don't agree with the legalization of pot for 'fun' reasons. I don't agree with people smoking up, falling asleep, and then waking up with the munchies just to repeat the pattern the next day. Some places that is legal, but I won't embrace it...and they can't make me embrace either. No one can tell me that lifestyle is good. I don't have to agree to that.

Agreed again. We don't control everything in the government. We may lament that society does it, and we don't have to agree with it.

 

[LinkH]

adulter

I'd like to see this much passion expressed over, oh, you know poverty .. child sex abuse .. the sex slave industry.

Usually, governments don't pass laws these days that overtly require children to be poor or children to be abused. Governments have legalized murdering babies in the womb, an extreme form of child abuse, and I do see Christians respond with a great deal of passion over this child abuse issue. And this is a child abuse issue where there are protestors on the streets in favor of keeping the murderous abuse legal. So it's to same sex so-called 'marriage' in that regard, with people on the streets in favor of legalizing wickedness.

 

[LinkH]

The LGBT community has been marginalized, and lied about since I can remember. I remember as a child people claiming that homosexuals are pedophiles too. They used that excuse to scare people away from them. They repeated it so often that even today I still hear people believing it. They knew it was lie, and said it anyway. Now people actually believe it they repeated it so often. There is no biblical justification for that. None.

Actually, a disproportionate number of pedophiles are homosexual (or do homosexual stuff in homosexual acts with kids.)

That is not about upholding God's word. It's also not a competition about whom does it worse than the other. Where in God's word does it state that when someone is ugly to me I can be just as ugly back? You won't find it there. So, claiming that you see more venom coming from their direction? It doesn't work.

Calling homosexual acts sin is a good thing to do, because it is perversion. Calling adultery and other forms of fornication sin is also a good thing to do. Homosexuals going following Christians around after they get out of church and yelling and spitting on them is a bad thing to do.

The delivery of God's word is just as important as the word itself. Do you seriously think God doesn't care about that aspect? I can't believe you feel that way.

I think that's a valid point, but most people who I've seen speak out against this perversion aren't acting like the folks from Westboro Baptist.

 

[DZoolander]

Actually, a disproportionate number of pedophiles are homosexual (or do homosexual stuff in homosexual acts with kids.)



Calling homosexual acts sin is a good thing to do, because it is perversion. Calling adultery and other forms of fornication sin is also a good thing to do. Homosexuals going following Christians around after they get out of church and yelling and spitting on them is a bad thing to do.



I think that's a valid point, but most people who I've seen speak out against this perversion aren't acting like the folks from Westboro Baptist.

lol what? Where exactly are these teams of homosexuals lurking in wait around churches so they can leap out and spit on congregants?