"You are Peter, and upon this rock..."

[Lulav]

I disagree. It's true that as bishop of the church at Jerusalem he was very powerful, just not as powerful as Peter. At the Council of Jerusalem, It is Peter who brings forth the Council's choice--Peter speaks and the decision is made. James, as the host, merely accepts it on behalf of the council and takes care of the formal business of the letter.

Not so sister

And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19Wherefore my sentence is*, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


*my judgement or my decision

 

[Open Heart]

Not so sister

And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19Wherefore my sentence is*, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

*my judgement or my decision

Who declared it??????

 

[Lulav]

Who declared it??????

Sorry, not following you, who declared what? Are you speaking of Peter talking about the Gentiles?, not sure what 'it' is. Doesn't matter, everyone was allowed to have their say and then James whose word was final, it was a sentence, a legal declaration. James was of the desposyni and that is why he is downplayed in the canon.

 

[Standing Up]

Sorry, not following you, who declared what? Are you speaking of Peter talking about the Gentiles?, not sure what 'it' is. Doesn't matter, everyone was allowed to have their say and then James whose word was final, it was a sentence, a legal declaration. James was of the desposyni and that is why he is downplayed in the canon.

Oddly enough, just ran into that word here from Africanus, on the brothers of the Lord after the flesh.

"A few, however, of the studious, having private records of their own, either by remembering the names or by getting at them in some other way from the archives, pride themselves in preserving the memory of their noble descent; and among these happen to be those already mentioned, called desposyni,1053
1053 The word δεσπόσυνοι was employed to indicate the Lord’s relatives, as being His according to the flesh. The term means literally, “those who belong to a master,” and thence it was used also to signify “one’s heirs.” on account of their connection with the family of the Saviour."
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf06.v.iii.v.html

Not sure James was downplayed, but seems like a controversy. Presumably James agreed with Paul/Peter, but not everyone under James' control agreed and continued to emphasize the Law's requirements as to salvation. Some suggest the "thorn in Paul's side" were those from James who continued to follow Paul's journeys and clashed with him.

 

[Open Heart]

Sorry, not following you, who declared what? Are you speaking of Peter talking about the Gentiles?, not sure what 'it' is. Doesn't matter, everyone was allowed to have their say and then James whose word was final, it was a sentence, a legal declaration. James was of the desposyni and that is why he is downplayed in the canon.

You own quote stated that Peter declared the winning view. James, as HOST, merely finalized it. It's okay with me if we disagree on this.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Keep in mind the context of the Jerusalem Council. It was James who sent men to "spy on the liberty". Peter drew back and refused to maintain, as he said once to Cornelius, God is no respecter of persons. It was Paul who stood firm in the truth of the Gospel (Good News).

Peter was not in charge. It was James that had to be dealt with, less the grace of God (the NT) became of no avail. James sent the men. It was James that changed his mind and changing, Peter perhaps did too.

PS. This was James the Just. Supposed brother after the flesh of Christ (same mother, different father). James was a powerful figure in the world of men, much more so than Peter.

Proof of this? I'll bet I have more proof from the Bible of Peter being the head of Christ's Church than you do that Mary had other children...

 

[Standing Up]

Proof of this? I'll bet I have more proof from the Bible of Peter being the head of Christ's Church than you do that Mary had other children...

Proof of what? Read Acts 15. Read Gal 2. It says James who sent the men (Gal 2:12).

Christ is the head. Peter is a foundation stone who first exercised the keys to open the door to the kingdom to Jew and Gentile. The door is open; the gates of hell will not prevail. The power to bind/loose was given to all the apostles.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Proof of what? Read Acts 15. Read Gal 2. It says James who sent the men (Gal 2:12).

Proof that James is the biological brother of Jesus (same mother!).

Christ is the head. Peter is a foundation stone who first exercised the keys to open the door to the kingdom to Jew and Gentile. The door is open; the gates of hell will not prevail. The power to bind/loose was given to all the apostles.

Sigh, who's the head when the head is no longer with us physically??? The powers were given to Peter specifically, and the others generally.

 

[laternonjuror]

Proof that James is the biological brother of Jesus (same mother!).
Sigh, who's the head when the head is no longer with us physically??? The powers were given to Peter specifically, and the others generally.

But where is the specific commission to the papacy? It was the time of Leo, in the fifth cent, before the institution began to show its teeth! Indeed any teeth.

 

[prodromos]

Sigh, who's the head when the head is no longer with us physically???

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.​

Who says He is no longer with us physically?

 

[Lulav]

You own quote stated that Peter declared the winning view. James, as HOST, merely finalized it. It's okay with me if we disagree on this.

I'm still not following you, winning view? please give the verses that show this because I am still not following you.

 

[Open Heart]

But where is the specific commission to the papacy?

You've been shown it over and over, but you reject the evidence.

 

[Open Heart]

I'm still not following you, winning view? please give the verses that show this because I am still not following you.

It wasn't verses. It was a quote from a scholar I believe.

 

[laternonjuror]

You've been shown it over and over, but you reject the evidence.

Madam, I,ve been a Catholic all my life, to put it in a clearer fashion, I've been a seeker after Christ!When we read or study about the early church, we have to study the early fathers, first three centuries. As far as I can tell, there's no proof at all of the Petrine commission descending to The Bishop of Rome! What has been proffered on this blog are instances of the Roman Bishop doing his work as a bishop of the Suburbicarian See of Rome, putting his point of view on various matters, such as the dating of Easter and such things, writing to an errant Roman colony and to the Council of Chalcedon. We have been given instances of comments by fathers in the ,'luckily,'outdated language used at that time. These don't mean anything .
I cannot believe that Christ gave such awsome authority to a series of men and then didn't tell anybody else? Pius X, declared,
"The Pope is not only representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself hidden under the veil of flesh.
Does the pope speak?
It is Jesus Christ Himself Who speaks."

" You know that I am the Holy father, the representative of God on earth." The Vicar of Christ,
which means that I am God on earth!"
Pius XI.

All this and much more and we were not told about it?
It took 1870 years before it was made official and even then Roman Catholic bishops spoke out against it.

 

[Open Heart]

Madam, I,ve been a Catholic all my life

No you haven't. You are not Catholic now. You are Anglican, which is catholic (small c).

 

[Open Heart]

the Roman Bishop

Why can't you just call him the Pope like everyone else.

 

[Rick Otto]

This refers to church teaching. Most everyone knows the Church made mistakes.
While there was brutality, the amount of claimed brutality was negligible. Besides which, you're taking a 400 year period in a small portion of the world, one which actually made the model for the judicial system of the Western World, and blowing it out of proportion. Nobody (few) denies the Inquisition, but there are many things the Inquisition wasn't.
And again, you take a pretty isolated thing that took place, for the most part, up to about 30 years ago, from a very small number of priests, and blow it out of proportion. Nobody denies what a few priests did, or what a few bishops did. But it's not like the Church didn't try to do something about it.

You can't have it both ways... the bishops and, priests are the church... the church acted criminally.
It's the biggest church in the world, and let's not pretend the abuse didn't happen before it started getting reported.

 

[ken777]

Pius X, declared,
"The Pope is not only representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself hidden under the veil of flesh.
Does the pope speak?
It is Jesus Christ Himself Who speaks."

" You know that I am the Holy father, the representative of God on earth." The Vicar of Christ,
which means that I am God on earth!"
Pius XI.

All this and much more and we were not told about it?

How on earth do people accept this when there were some truly dreadful Popes?

Obviously Jesus was not talking about the organisational structure when He spoke of the Church.
.

 

[laternonjuror]

No you haven't. You are not Catholic now. You are Anglican, which is catholic (small c).

Madam, you are talking above your knowledge! Forgive me, but it is true!
The Church in Britain according to Albanicus the Wise, (AD, 425 he was known as Gildas and his book is still extant,) wrote,' Christ the True Son afforded His light, the knowledge of His precepts,to our Island in the last year, as we know' of Tiberius. Tiberius died about 37 AD.
(S.Dorotheus of Tyre, (AD, 303, AB., & M.) Claimed that the Brother of Our Lord, Simon, taught the Faith in Britain, where he was martyred This is in the Roman Martyrology. (?)
Aristobulos the friend of S/ S.Paul, was first Bishop of the Britons according to S.Dorotheus and both the Roman and Orthodox Martyrologies .(?)

 

[Open Heart]

Madam, you are talking above your knowledge! Forgive me, b it is true!
The Church in Britain according to Albanicus the Wise, (AD, 425 he was known as Gildas and his book is still extant,) wrote,' Christ the True Son afforded His light, the knowledge of His precepts to our Island in the last year, as we know', of Tiberius. Tiberius died about 37 AD.
(S.Dorotheus of Tyre, (AD, 303, AB., & M.) Claimed that the Brother of Our Lord, Simon, taught the Faith in Britain, where he was martyred This is in the Roman Martyrology. (?)
Aristobulos the friend of S/ S.Paul, was first Bishop of the Britons according to S.Dorotheus and both the Roman and Orthodox Martyrologies .(?)

So? Henry the 8th broke with Rome. He took the Church of England off onto its own track. You are catholic, but not Catholic.