Tools far pre date man, evolution theory kicked in face

[dad]

The way it works is that we observe how things behave today and make predictions about what we might expect to see if they behaved the same way in the past. We then look at things of well known historical age (e.g. trees up to 5,000 years old) and check if our predictions are reliable.

You have no known ages, just faith based so called dates. Trees are only old in your mind because you want to pawn off the same state past, for the whole life of the tree, when you have no clue at all it was so.

If so, we make predictions of what we'd expect to see for something much older, and then select something we think is around that age and see if our predictions hold good. By cross-checking with a number of different dating indicators, e.g. tree rings, radioactive isotope decay (various), stratigraphic, thermoluminescence, electron spin resonance, optically stimulated luminescence, archeo-magnetic, corrosion, obsidian hydration, amino acids, rehydroxylation, etc., we can estimate the precision and range of each dating method, and use the temporal range overlap to date things within a well-defined range of error.

There is only ONE indicator in science that is foisted onto all things. That is the unproven belief in a same state past. When one foists this on different things, one will get similar insane results that can be hammered into looking like they agree with each other.

If the forces and laws were significantly different in the past (within the range of our dating methods), we would not see the consistency between our predictions and our observations that we do.

Irrelevant when the so called consistency is all based on your unproven nature. The only 'consistency' is inside your head and inside your imaginary religious based past world.

God formed it but it wasn't formed?

Obviously when science talks of something being formed, they do not have specifically created by Jesus in mind. They abuse the word, and it might be better translated something like 'randomly happened because of imaginary events and occurrences that we dreamt up'

As explained above, we have a lot more than isotopes, and many ways to cross-check dating methods - all based on and dependent on observation rather than belief without evidence (faith) or belief in the supernatural. So no, it's not religion.

Science has nothing at all but religion that they foist on different things in a con job. Trees, or clams or deposits or etc etc...all submerged in the circular dead pool of their godless belief system.

Earth is older than what? if you mean that really old bits of Earth might have been blasted into space and then returned back to the surface to fool our dating systems, events like that have actually happened - we have found ancient material (rock) from Earth and from the moon and Mars - but we know about it because it's found out of context, e.g. near or on the surface among much younger material. Crustal recycling due to plate tectonics limits how far back we can date rocks we find to around 4.4 billion years.

Forget old. That is absurd. But if a rock was ejected from earth long ago in the former state, heck, I could see that some differences should exist...differences your fanatical belief system forces you to interpret as age!

No, not really. It's all based on observation and many scientists competing over many years to find the best model to fit those observations - then cross-checking them in as many ways as they can. Each new piece of evidence is checked and, if necessary, the models are adjusted. As I said before, the further back you go, the wider the error bars, so the more likely a new piece of evidence will adjust the models for that era, but the error bars are reducing.

It is ALL error. The error bars you speak of are all just within your religion.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here - dark matter? 'dark matter' says we don't know what it is yet, but it behaves as if it has mass and hardly interacts.

You see things happening far far away, and then try to assign earth nature reasons to why they happen.

It's probably a bunch of particles, but it could be gravity behaving unexpectedly at cosmological distances. Yes, there's a large hole in our knowledge, one of many holes - but that's why we do science; if there were no more holes, if we knew everything, science would be at an end.

You are guessing. It also could be a time related issue, or spiritual related issues, etc etc. You only look to the little shallow pool of earth physics for all your explanations.

Only a really tiny percentage of things that die become fossils, so the vast majority of men and beasts throughout history will have returned to 'dust' without becoming fossils.

I suggest that man and most animals could not fossilize at all in early earth, former nature history. Not like you know!

 

[dad]

Jesus never said anything about the books written about him after he left nor did he claim the OT scripture was written by God obviously.

Joh 2:22 - When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Joh 7:42 -Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
Joh 19:36 -For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Mt 24:35 -Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Joh 5:47 - But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Joh 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Mt 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Lu 4:21 - And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

 

[Colter]

Joh 2:22 - When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Joh 7:42 -Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
Joh 19:36 -For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Mt 24:35 -Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Joh 5:47 - But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Joh 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Mt 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Lu 4:21 - And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Still not there.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You have no known ages, just faith based so called dates. Trees are only old in your mind because you want to pawn off the same state past, for the whole life of the tree, when you have no clue at all it was so.

You don't think tree rings can tell you the age of the tree?

There is only ONE indicator in science that is foisted onto all things. That is the unproven belief in a same state past. When one foists this on different things, one will get similar insane results that can be hammered into looking like they agree with each other.
Irrelevant when the so called consistency is all based on your unproven nature. The only 'consistency' is inside your head and inside your imaginary religious based past world.

Not really, no. The technology you use to post to this forum is based on the very same physical models you claim are unproven and give insane results, and it depends on the consistency you decry. It works. The idea that we should only accept what can be demonstrated in the present because what is past cannot be 'proved' is an unreasonable non-sequitur; we have sophisticated reasoning brains and a world full of evidence; to ignore that evidence seems a sad waste of both, God-given or otherwise.

You are guessing. It also could be a time related issue, or spiritual related issues, etc etc. You only look to the little shallow pool of earth physics for all your explanations.

Yes, we're guessing, not blind guesses, but informed guesses, based on what we know already; and having guessed, we will predict what we should expect to see if our guesses are correct. Then we will look to see whether our predictions hold good. We have already disposed of a number of guesses that way - we know plenty of things that dark matter is not. Eventually, we hope to find a guess that gives us accurate predictions.

That's what science does - it models how the world behaves by observing it closely, then repeatedly tests the models against how the world behaves. It works really well. That's how we can supply power, food, water, transport, and communications to billions of people. It's how we know where to drill for ancient deposits of oil, where to mine for minerals laid down when the Earth was young, and so-on. You can assert that it's wrong until you're blue in the face, but you still use the products of its discoveries. It's a very human trait called cognitive dissonance.

I suggest that man and most animals could not fossilize at all in early earth, former nature history. Not like you know!

Man wasn't on the early Earth to fossilize. The very earliest creatures were single cells, probably too fragile to fossilize, but the cyanobacteria that followed left fossils nearly 3.5 billion years old, over a billion years before human species appeared in the fossil record; there were no oxygen breathing creatures in those early days - it was the cyanobacteria that put oxygen into the air via photosynthesis, and that took quite a long time.

 

[davedajobauk]

dad said: ↑
All your dates are based on the belief the past was the same period. That is why you blather on and on...and on. And on.

The PAST, was NEVER the same... as it is now .... EVERYTHING CHANGES
The 'differences' are measurable / definable
and are as distinct, as that misty 'bit of space' at the end of your nose
is what you would have us believe

Chronologically speaking, your 'dates'
reflect, only, what you profess, to believe
while others, believe what they have learned to believe

God's days, were clearly much-longer than our's are to us
Methusaleh, lived @ 5 times as long, as the average man does today

Someone living, as long as that, would most-certainly have acquired a great deal of knowledge and experience
and have amazing eclectic knowledge before his demise

Confirmation Bias, or, 'myside bias' is and, has been, defeating this discussion, from the outset
Such that knowledgeable persons, face the situation, where they, meet up with a stone wall
one, that offers intractable opinion, that does not contribute to developing of understanding
on the matter under discussion

Few here, will disagree the above (save at-least, one)

dave





https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Confirmation_bias


https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=intractable

 

[davedajobauk]

No. It means your dates are religious nonsense.

I disagree, I hold the view, that God gave each of us our sensory perceptions
and also the brain, with which to benefit us, with the knowledge these provide

Some things, we are, ABLE to change for the better
other things, we will have-to accept, that we are unable to change
regardless of, conscious (deliberate) physical and intellectual devotions
Our 'deliberations' provide considerable insight and skills
~doctors, surgeons, architects, psychologists, electrical and mechanical engineers
without ALL of which, we would have long remained in the 'dark ages'

These, are God's gifts...... Learning ? it never stops ...
Methods of learning and teaching CHANGE, as knowledge develops

Indeed, "there are none so-blind, as those that WILL NOT 'see' "

'Nonsense' is, simply "blather"

No 'answers' - no-consideration, just "blather"

dave

"Without consultation, plans are frustrated, but with many counselors they succeed."

Prov 15:22

A man must serve his time in every trade except censure - critics are ready made.
- Lord Byron (1788-1824)

 

[dad]

Still not there.

Yes, Jesus made it crystal clear He fulfilled Scripture, accepted it, as from God, and declared it was impossible for it to fail, and pointed out that His words were to last forever, and would be brought to remembrance to those appointed to record them.

 

[dad]

You don't think tree rings can tell you the age of the tree?

Only as far back as a yearly or seasonal cycle existed and were representative of a year.One does not and cannot determine that simply by counting rings. One must know the nature in place all the way.

Not really, no. The technology you use to post to this forum is based on the very same physical models you claim are unproven and give insane results, and it depends on the consistency you decry. It works. The idea that we should only accept what can be demonstrated in the present because what is past cannot be 'proved' is an unreasonable non-sequitur; we have sophisticated reasoning brains and a world full of evidence; to ignore that evidence seems a sad waste of both, God-given or otherwise.

Excellent. A claim we can get our teeth into. In what way specifically does a same state past require credit for a computer?

Yes, we're guessing, not blind guesses, but informed guesses, based on what we know already; and having guessed, we will predict what we should expect to see if our guesses are correct. Then we will look to see whether our predictions hold good. We have already disposed of a number of guesses that way - we know plenty of things that dark matter is not. Eventually, we hope to find a guess that gives us accurate predictions.

So you have plenty of guesses as to what most of the universe is NOT. OK. The issue is what basis the guesses are made on and on what beliefs or assumptions!

That's what science does - it models how the world behaves by observing it closely, then repeatedly tests the models against how the world behaves. It works really well.

It does not work at all in any way for the far past. Never has a same state past or any past state been tested! ALL observations are right now and right here also.

That's how we can supply power, food, water, transport, and communications to billions of people.

NOTHING to do with your claimed nature of the far past or future! That is what matters here3, not how we manage in the present by using present laws.

It's how we know where to drill for ancient deposits of oil, where to mine for minerals laid down when the Earth was young, and so-on.

No. The patterns we found that existed and layers help us do that. How old and why these exist is totally a different matter!

You can assert that it's wrong until you're blue in the face, but you still use the products of its discoveries.

I have NEVER used anything that came about because of a same state past that I know about. Not a single solitary thing, and I daresay no one has or ever will!

It's a very human trait called cognitive dissonance.

There is also something called God and Truth and Scripture, which helps us get away from that.

Man wasn't on the early Earth to fossilize.

Yes he was, but you are right, he was not here to fossilize! he was here to return to DUST!

The very earliest creatures were single cells, probably too fragile to fossilize,

No. The way we determine what was an early creature is not by what left remains in dirt and rocks. That is the popular misconception we are exposing here.

but the cyanobacteria that followed left fossils nearly 3.5 billion years old, over a billion years before human species appeared in the fossil record;

No, what you mean is that by the time man could and did start to leaven remains in THIS nature, there were already remains of other little creeping things and whatnots here!

there were no oxygen breathing creatures in those early days

Prove it. You can't.

- it was the cyanobacteria that put oxygen into the air via photosynthesis, and that took quite a long time.

Says you and your little belief system. Based on what? How would you know if God used those and other things to make air? You are guessing...flailing in the dark.

 

[dad]

I disagree, I hold the view, that God gave each of us our sensory perceptions
and also the brain, with which to benefit us, with the knowledge these provide

More pious vague balderdash. Jesus knew we had brains when He told us to believe by the way.

Some things, we are, ABLE to change for the better
other things, we will have-to accept, that we are unable to change
regardless of, conscious (deliberate) physical and intellectual devotions
Our 'deliberations' provide considerable insight and skills
~doctors, surgeons, architects, psychologists, electrical and mechanical engineers
without ALL of which, we would have long remained in the 'dark ages'

Wow, the pious platitude prince speaks.

These, are God's gifts...... Learning ? it never stops ...
Methods of learning and teaching CHANGE, as knowledge develops

Stomach churningly empty blather.

Indeed, "there are none so-blind, as those that WILL NOT 'see' "

To top off the feast of foolishness we have a misapplied verse.

[/QUOTE]

 

[dad]

The PAST, was NEVER the same... as it is now .... EVERYTHING CHANGES
The 'differences' are measurable / definable

So measure and define what differences existed in Noah's day and will exist in heaven? Or is what you are really saying 'go back to sleep, all things will be and were as they are now'?

and are as distinct, as that misty 'bit of space' at the end of your nose
is what you would have us believe

Chronologically speaking, your 'dates'
reflect, only, what you profess, to believe
while others, believe what they have learned to believe

Thanks for the talk, Yoda.

God's days, were clearly much-longer than our's are to us
Methusaleh, lived @ 5 times as long, as the average man does today

No. Having long lives in the coming 1000 year reign of Christ or having them in Noah's day does not mean God doesn't know a day from a hole in the wall.

 

[Colter]

Yes, Jesus made it crystal clear He fulfilled Scripture, accepted it, as from God, and declared it was impossible for it to fail, and pointed out that His words were to last forever, and would be brought to remembrance to those appointed to record them.

Lots of wishful thinking on your part. The Jews also say that about the man made scripture of the heavily redacted Old Testiment books that they use to reject Jesus. It was only natural that those Jews who left Judaism to follow the Jesus movment wanted to justify their decision by forcing Jesus into the office of the Messiah.

 

[Goonie]

You have no known ages, just faith based so called dates. Trees are only old in your mind because you want to pawn off the same state past, for the whole life of the tree, when you have no clue at all it was so.

There is only ONE indicator in science that is foisted onto all things. That is the unproven belief in a same state past. When one foists this on different things, one will get similar insane results that can be hammered into looking like they agree with each other.
Irrelevant when the so called consistency is all based on your unproven nature. The only 'consistency' is inside your head and inside your imaginary religious based past world.
Obviously when science talks of something being formed, they do not have specifically created by Jesus in mind. They abuse the word, and it might be better translated something like 'randomly happened because of imaginary events and occurrences that we dreamt up'


Science has nothing at all but religion that they foist on different things in a con job. Trees, or clams or deposits or etc etc...all submerged in the circular dead pool of their godless belief system.
Forget old. That is absurd. But if a rock was ejected from earth long ago in the former state, heck, I could see that some differences should exist...differences your fanatical belief system forces you to interpret as age!

It is ALL error. The error bars you speak of are all just within your religion.

You see things happening far far away, and then try to assign earth nature reasons to why they happen.

You are guessing. It also could be a time related issue, or spiritual related issues, etc etc. You only look to the little shallow pool of earth physics for all your explanations.
I suggest that man and most animals could not fossilize at all in early earth, former nature history. Not like you know!

Only as far back as a yearly or seasonal cycle existed and were representative of a year.One does not and cannot determine that simply by counting rings. One must know the nature in place all the way.
Excellent. A claim we can get our teeth into. In what way specifically does a same state past require credit for a computer?


So you have plenty of guesses as to what most of the universe is NOT. OK. The issue is what basis the guesses are made on and on what beliefs or assumptions!
It does not work at all in any way for the far past. Never has a same state past or any past state been tested! ALL observations are right now and right here also.


NOTHING to do with your claimed nature of the far past or future! That is what matters here3, not how we manage in the present by using present laws.

No. The patterns we found that existed and layers help us do that. How old and why these exist is totally a different matter!
I have NEVER used anything that came about because of a same state past that I know about. Not a single solitary thing, and I daresay no one has or ever will!

There is also something called God and Truth and Scripture, which helps us get away from that.
Yes he was, but you are right, he was not here to fossilize! he was here to return to DUST!
No. The way we determine what was an early creature is not by what left remains in dirt and rocks. That is the popular misconception we are exposing here.
No, what you mean is that by the time man could and did start to leaven remains in THIS nature, there were already remains of other little creeping things and whatnots here!

Prove it. You can't.

Says you and your little belief system. Based on what? How would you know if God used those and other things to make air? You are guessing...flailing in the dark.

This old chestnut, prove the world is young and evolution is dead. Unfortunately the old date of the earth is even more solid than evolution with multiple lines of support from physics, geology, chemistry. You are left to make absurd claims that 6000 years ago all the rules were different. These are just statements without evidence.

Tree ring dating is one of the simplest and most accurate means of dating. Its reliabilty can be tested for example by cutting down a tree you know was planted on a particular dat and then counting, this can be repeated. One ring one year.

 

[dad]

Lots of wishful thinking on your part. The Jews also say that about the man made scripture of the heavily redacted Old Testiment books that they use to reject Jesus.

They are right. The old testament is true, all that they miss is the forest for the trees in it. It is all about Jesus from start to finish.

It was only natural that those Jews who left Judaism to follow the Jesus movment wanted to justify their decision by forcing Jesus into the office of the Messiah.

Those Jews or any others had zero to do with fulfilled Scripture, what Jesus did, and etc. Their only part was to be honest and believe...or not. Likewise that is where you stand this moment.

 

[dad]

This old chestnut, prove the world is young and evolution is dead. Unfortunately the old date of the earth is even more solid than evolution with multiple lines of support from physics, geology, chemistry.

Absurd claim that shows deep willing ignorance and blind faith. You cannot support that claim..here...now. How do you like them apples?

You are left to make absurd claims that 6000 years ago all the rules were different. These are just statements without evidence.

That can be said of any ages as far as science goes. Evidences are broader than the little box of science.

Tree ring dating is one of the simplest and most accurate means of dating. Its reliabilty can be tested for example by cutting down a tree you know was planted on a particular dat and then counting, this can be repeated. One ring one year.

False. Noah sent out a bird..no trees. A week later...trees! No ring in the tree represented years. In creation week a garden was planted. 6 days later...trees with fruit.

All science can say is that now, here in the present state nature, tree ring growth represents a certain time. You must be kidding.

 

[Goonie]

Absurd claim that shows deep willing ignorance and blind faith. You cannot support that claim..here...now. How do you like them apples?


That can be said of any ages as far as science goes. Evidences are broader than the little box of science.
False. Noah sent out a bird..no trees. A week later...trees! No ring in the tree represented years. In creation week a garden was planted. 6 days later...trees with fruit.

All science can say is that now, here in the present state nature, tree ring growth represents a certain time. You must be kidding.

Sorry, but the only willing ignorance is your own. The Noah story is clearly nothing more than plagiarised from gilgamesh, one more flood myth from the Mesopotamian flood plain.

 

[dad]

Sorry, but the only willing ignorance is your own. The Noah story is clearly nothing more than plagiarised from gilgamesh, one more flood myth from the Mesopotamian flood plain.

False. Noah and the flood were before Gilgamesh. Don't be confused by the date of the oldest copy we have so far of Scriptures. The bible record covers Adam and Noah. The poor pagans that probably heard stories of the flood and messed them up, or changed them are of no real consequence.

 

[Goonie]

False. Noah and the flood were before Gilgamesh. Don't be confused by the date of the oldest copy we have so far of Scriptures. The bible record covers Adam and Noah. The poor pagans that probably heard stories of the flood and messed them up, or changed them are of no real consequence.

Really, were you there? No confusion just facts, gilgamesh 2200bc bible, at best 1600bc.

Anyway on a literal reading, noah and the ark would almost certainly have died in a methane explosion long before the year was up. All those animals, small space, one small door, think about it.

 

[dad]

Really, were you there? No confusion just facts, gilgamesh 2200bc bible, at best 1600bc.

Noah was not alive 1600BC. Was he? As for the flood, let's see I think they date it about 2500 BC. So that would make the tales told in Gigglesmesh about 300 years later. That means kids of kids of kids basically. The delusional fables of pagans that had rejected truth.

Anyway on a literal reading, noah and the ark would almost certainly have died in a methane explosion long before the year was up. All those animals, small space, one small door, think about it.

God designed the ark and gave Noah the specs. God knew about ventilation. I don't know how small the door was either. The largest animals had to get in it.

 

[Colter]

They are right. The old testament is true, all that they miss is the forest for the trees in it. It is all about Jesus from start to finish.

Those Jews or any others had zero to do with fulfilled Scripture, what Jesus did, and etc. Their only part was to be honest and believe...or not. Likewise that is where you stand this moment.

I do believe in the Father and the Son, I just don't believe the exaggerated, self important, conflicted and inaccurate books written by the people who killed the Son when he came in response to the promise.

 

[Goonie]

Noah was not alive 1600BC. Was he? As for the flood, let's see I think they date it about 2500 BC. So that would make the tales told in Gigglesmesh about 300 years later. That means kids of kids of kids basically. The delusional fables of pagans that had rejected truth.


God designed the ark and gave Noah the specs. God knew about ventilation. I don't know how small the door was either. The largest animals had to get in it.

The 2300-2500 dating of a great flood is truly absurd. The egyptian old kingdom, 3000 bc onwards waves hello. And yes I already know your answer, entirety of science wrong, iron age man claiming,without evidence, to speak for god right.