Is the Church Raptured in Revelation 4

[Riberra]

From post #99
I guess when you see a plane flying and then entering a cloud, you can still see the plane, right through the cloud.

If you try to compare Jesus coming in Glory (shining like the sun) in the clouds with an airplane disappearing when entering in a cloud, then your comparison is on shaky ground.

Anyone can quote a scripture:
"Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ"
Where do you see any meeting in the air in Matthew 24:30?

The gathering of the elect (those in Christ) mentioned in Matthew 24:31 is for the meeting with Jesus who will be in the clouds in the air (Matthew 24:30). You are surely aware that the clouds are in the air.... even if not mentioned in the text. Right ?
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[iamlamad]

If you try to compare Jesus coming in Glory (shining like the sun) in the clouds with an airplane disappearing when entering in a cloud, then your comparison is on shaky ground.


The gathering of the elect (those in Christ) mentioned in Matthew 24:31 is for the meeting with Jesus who will be in the clouds in the air (Matthew 24:30). You are surely aware that the clouds are in the air.... even if not mentioned in the text. Right ?
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If you think a gathering from heaven is the same as a gathering from under the earth and from on the earth I guess you think you can also see through clouds.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Did you catch that? OUT OF THEIR SIGHT.....

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

There is a difference between the material world and the eternal immortal dimension .... and there is a barrier between of which the mortal human cannot cross

There is nothing that the Lord cannot do and He is omnipresent .... and He can appear and disappear at will with respect to human observation

.... He is present now, we just cannot see Him

Much of the explanations in scripture given to describe His presence, comings and goings, etc. are symbolized

Example: the idea that "heaven" is up, or that the Lord is residing in some far far away place in the universe and has to go somewhere and come back

"Heaven" is not "up" or "down", but across the barrier .... it is a "higher" condition and level of existence

 

[Riberra]

If you think a gathering from heaven is the same as a gathering from under the earth and from on the earth I guess you think you can also see through clouds.

I have expected that reply.
In the verses quoted "heaven" refers to the earth's sky.Unless that you think that there is clouds and wind(s) in HEAVEN.
Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Did you catch that? OUT OF THEIR SIGHT.....

In Act 1:9 Jesus was in His resurrected flesh body.When Jesus will return we will see Him in all His Glory (shining like the sun).

 

[Riberra]

My comment

There is a difference between the material world and the eternal immortal dimension .... and there is a barrier between of which the mortal human cannot cross

That is the point exactly. The mortal human cannot cross that barrier in his flesh body.Only the souls of the believers will return to God after that the body is dead ... The resurrection of those who died in Christ and the gathering of those in Christ who are alive and remain will occur on Earth upon Jesus' return in Glory.

 

[iamlamad]

I have expected that reply.
In the verses quoted "heaven" refers to the earth's sky.Unless that you think that there is clouds and wind(s) in HEAVEN.
Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



In Act 1:9 Jesus was in His resurrected flesh body.When Jesus will return we will see Him in all His Glory (shining like the sun).

So the clouds will shine. Probably it will be clouds of His glory. The point still remains, you are talking about His coming as shown in Rev. 19 and Matthew 24. What are you going to do with His coming FOR HIS SAINTS 7 years previous as shown in 1 Thes. 4?

You can try to imagine all passages refer to one coming, but you will be wrong. When He comes FOR His saints and the dead in Christ rise, the "sudden destruction" this event will trigger will be as Paul said, the wrath of God and the beginning of the Day of His wrath - the very wrath, as Paul wrote - that we have no appointment with.

You can set your own appointment if you wish: but why, when God Himself has declared that He will not set that appointment? You can lose your head to the beast if you wish, but WHY, when God wants to to ESCAPE what is coming?

For the real meaning of "heaven" in this verse, we must refer to the Mark version:

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

What would be the purpose of stating both heaven and earth if He was only talking about the earth? Of course clouds are in the air above the surface of the earth. Perhaps there are clouds above the surface of the heavenly planet as well. However, Paul wrote that the dead in Christ would rise to the clouds and then those caught up alive will meet them in the clouds and will meet Jesus in the air (where the clouds are). Of course the dead in Christ and the alive in Christ will be found in all parts of the earth, so "from the uttermost part of the earth" would fit Paul's gathering; but "to the uttermost part of heaven" does not fit.

However, if this is God fulfilling His promise to bring all the Jews back to Israel, from all over the earth and all over heaven, this would fit perfectly, and angels would do this gathering. There will be NO NEED for angels to "gather" the saints, for the saints will all have bodies like the angels.

Let's suppose for a moment that there is no pretrib gathering. What ever saints are left alive on earth in Rev. 19:14 would suddenly be caught up as Jesus is descending. Forget God taking the saints to the place prepared for them, as in John 14. God was just daydreaming when He wrote that. Just rewrite that to say that God will bring those mansions or abodes to the saints here on earth. After all, from this point on Jesus will be on the earth. So the saints are caught up, some to join with their spirits, and then just return down to the earth to fight the battle of Armageddon.

Now, rewrite Rev. 19 to, to fit your theory:

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. [all these are only those saints who have died previously in your theory]

7 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

8 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

9 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

10 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [Again these are the saints who have died. This is where He shouts, the angel sound the trumpet, and the dead in Christ rise - according to your theory.]

11 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

12 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

13 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

14 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

15 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

16 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

17 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
18 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

19 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
20 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

21 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

This is your theory written as you believe it. This is what you are sure John meant anyway. You have had to rewrite two portions of scripture at least, but probably many more, like moving Rev. 6 or at least the 6th seal, to the end. But, you don't care about these little things: just rearrange to fit your theory!

My question to you is, would you consider this the equivalent of adding to or taking away from scripture?

 

[iamlamad]

My comment

There is a difference between the material world and the eternal immortal dimension .... and there is a barrier between of which the mortal human cannot cross

There is nothing that the Lord cannot do and He is omnipresent .... and He can appear and disappear at will with respect to human observation

.... He is present now, we just cannot see Him

Much of the explanations in scripture given to describe His presence, comings and goings, etc. are symbolized

Example: the idea that "heaven" is up, or that the Lord is residing in some far far away place in the universe and has to go somewhere and come back

"Heaven" is not "up" or "down", but across the barrier .... it is a "higher" condition and level of existence

There are at least a dozen verses that tell us Jesus went to be at the right hand of the Father, and another that tells us that is where He wills stay until the right time. God the father seems never to leave the throne. That leaves the Holy Spirit. Of course He is everywhere.

When Jesus left those people standing on the face of the earth, He went UP from their perspective. This is not my word, it is scripture. Truthfully, we have no idea where in the universe the throne of God is, or how far away from earth it is. Some that have gone there and came back to tell, tell us it is a planet, with mountains and rivers. Some tell that they seemed to get there almost instantly while others tell us there was some time involved in the journey. It is an unknown.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Riberra]

From post #106
So the clouds will shine. Probably it will be clouds of His glory.

We will rather see Jesus coming in Glory through the clouds...
One image worth a thousand words:
Matthew 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The point still remains, you are talking about His coming as shown in Rev. 19 and Matthew 24. What are you going to do with His coming FOR HIS SAINTS 7 years previous as shown in 1 Thes. 4? You can try to imagine all passages refer to one coming, but you will be wrong. When He comes FOR His saints and the dead in Christ rise, the "sudden destruction" this event will trigger will be as Paul said, the wrath of God and the beginning of the Day of His wrath - the very wrath, as Paul wrote - that we have no appointment with.

Correct me if I am wrong but there is a trumpet sounding in 1 Thes. 4.... there is no trump sounding "pre-tib" at the opening of the 6 th seal...

You can set your own appointment if you wish: but why, when God Himself has declared that He will not set that appointment? You can lose your head to the beast if you wish, but WHY, when God wants to to ESCAPE what is coming?

Same old cursing.If really there is to be a removal of Christians before the tribulation no Christians will be left behind.Why your theory need a large group of Christians left behind ?

For the real meaning of "heaven" in this verse, we must refer to the Mark version:

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

What would be the purpose of stating both heaven and earth if He was only talking about the earth? Of course clouds are in the air above the surface of the earth. Perhaps there are clouds above the surface of the heavenly planet as well. However, Paul wrote that the dead in Christ would rise to the clouds and then those caught up alive will meet them in the clouds and will meet Jesus in the air (where the clouds are). Of course the dead in Christ and the alive in Christ will be found in all parts of the earth, so "from the uttermost part of the earth" would fit Paul's gathering; but "to the uttermost part of heaven" does not fit.

Fit Matthew 24:31
...From the four winds from one end of heaven (sky) to the other.

However, if this is God fulfilling His promise to bring all the Jews back to Israel, from all over the earth and all over heaven, this would fit perfectly, and angels would do this gathering. (1)There will be NO NEED for angels to "gather" the saints, for the saints will all have bodies like the angels.(2)

(1)Gathering of the Elects =Saints who are alive and remain upon Jesus second coming... this will include converted Jews.
(2)Not until the dead in Christ (Saints) are resurrected upon Jesus second coming.Then they will be gathered with those in Christ still alive to meet Jesus in the clouds in the air....

Let's suppose for a moment that there is no pretrib gathering. What ever saints are left alive on earth in Rev. 19:14 would suddenly be caught up as Jesus is descending. Forget God taking the saints to the place prepared for them, as in John 14. God was just daydreaming when He wrote that. Just rewrite that to say that God will bring those mansions or abodes to the saints here on earth. After all, from this point on Jesus will be on the earth. So the saints are caught up, some to join with their spirits, and then just return down to the earth to fight the battle of Armageddon.

Nice attempt at straw man.I have not rewrite anything.
Are you sure that you know really the meaning of John 14 ? You focus only on verses 2 and 3
Lets see the context....
Obviously Jesus have not returned to take his apostles to those mansions while they were alive but Jesus have send to them the Comforter (Holy Spirit) who will abide with them for ever. (v16)

John 14 (KJV)
14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I will address the rest of your post later.
Here ya go:

Now, rewrite Rev. 19 to, to fit your theory:


This is your theory written as you believe it. This is what you are sure John meant anyway. You have had to rewrite two portions of scripture at least, but probably many more, like moving Rev. 6 or at least the 6th seal, to the end. But, you don't care about these little things: just rearrange to fit your theory!

Can you show where i have rewrited anything or moved the order of chapters ?

My question to you is, would you consider this the equivalent of adding to or taking away from scripture?

Like i said earlier,nice attempt at building a straw man.I have not added or removed anything.And i feel comfortable with the order of chapters presented in Revelation. You are the one adding to the words in Revelation by saying that the great earthquake of the 6 th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising...

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Straightshot]

"Both the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet bring the wrath of God.
Therefore the 7th trumpet happens around the time of the 6th seal."


The 6th seal of the scroll is a portent of conditions that will exist just before and during the tribulation on the earth [just as are the other seals]

The seals are not a record of the actual events of the tribulation .... and the Lord will remove all of the seals so that the scroll of the actual judgments will open

The 7th trumpet is associated with actual ending tribulation events and will begin to sound toward the end of the period

Here are the seal portents:

The spreading of the gospel of the kingdom
Intense angelic and human warfare
Economic collapse across the earth
Massive human death
Martyrdom

The 6th seal describes the effects of coming judgment and corresponding human reaction

And the 7th .... the short silence just before the judgments come

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Straightshot]

Weird stuff vin

 

[Riberra]

The saints are not sleeping on the horses in Rev. 19.
They wear already put on righteousness outfits and will later
sit to reign with Christ.

The 5th seal talk about those who were slain for their testimony for Jesus and for the word of God wearing righteousness outfits and it was said to them to wait until their fellows and brethren who must be slain as they were should be fulfilled.Do you think that the Saints returning with Jesus in Revelation 19 are wearing righteousness outfits because they were slain?

 

[Riberra]

The 6th seal of the scroll is a portent of conditions that will exist just before and during the tribulation on the earth [just as are the other seals]

No doubt that when the great worldwide earthquake and celestial events of the 6th seal will happen we will know that something very serious in regard of the end time prophecy mentioned in Revelation 6:12 have just happened...
Details:
The Sixt Th Seal Events and the emergence of the One World Government. - Christian Forums

The seals are not a record of the actual events of the tribulation .... and the Lord will remove all of the seals so that the scroll of the actual judgments will open
Here are the seal portents:

The spreading of the gospel of the kingdom
Intense angelic and human warfare
Economic collapse across the earth
Massive human death
Martyrdom

In 2,000 + years of history since the death and resurrection of Jesus there is a good correlation between the events described in Matthew 24:1 to 26 and the opening of the 5 first seals who fit historical events ( Massive human death caused by wars, famines,earthquakes...)...........to this day Martyrdom of Christians (5 Th seal).
Matthew 24
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24&version=KJV

Revelation 6
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 6&version=KJV

The 6th seal describes the effects of coming judgment and corresponding human reaction

No doubt that the destruction caused by the great worldwide earthquake and the celestial events of the 6 th seal will cause a great fear and chaos.....

And the 7th .... the short silence just before the judgments come

Effectively.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Straightshot]

I agree with you on these things vin .... no doubt [1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 2 Thessalonians 4:13-18]

All, both OT and NT alike will participate

 

[Riberra]

I agree with you on these things vin .... no doubt [1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 2 Thessalonians 4:13-18]

All, both OT and NT alike will participate

Upon Jesus second coming in glory (Matthew 24:29-31 .... Revelation 19)

 

[Straightshot]

Well RB I see it a bit different than you do, but the Lord's true ecclesia will get there in one way or another

I believe that Matthew 24 is all about Israel during the coming 70 week decreed for a returned remnant of the same to the land .... and the gathering will be of the believing mortal survivors of the time of Jacob's trouble who will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31]

Then the Lord will gather the surviving mortals of the period of the Gentile nations and those that are found believing will enter the same [Matthew 25:31-46]

But today's true ecclesia of both the dead in Christ and those living [Jew or Gentile] will go before as immortals [Revelation 3:10]

 

[vinsight4u]

"Both the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet bring the wrath of God.
Therefore the 7th trumpet happens around the time of the 6th seal."


The 6th seal of the scroll is a portent of conditions that will exist just before and during the tribulation on the earth [just as are the other seals]

6th seal
stars fall

Matthew 24:29
"...after the tribulation...the stars shall fall from heaven..."

It is impossible for the great tribulation to occur after the
6th seal end of trib events happen.

Malachi 3:2
"But who may abide the day of his coming?...who shall stand
when he appeareth..."
6th seal event
"...who shall be able to stand?"

Rev. 8:2 is where John sees something he has already watched
and told us about? the seven angels
John used the definite article for a reason.

Should we know Who a Lamb was/is in the time of Rev. 5:6?
Yes.
Yet, John introduced Him to us -the readers.

"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four
beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb..."

1 Peter 1:19
John 1:29,36