Pre Trib Bible Study

[bibletruth469]

I disagree. I think the bible is VERY clear on the timing of the pretrib rapture. Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord just three verses after His classic rapture verse. The suddenly is the rapture in the previous chapter. Those in the darkeness get sudden destruction. That is an earthquake caused by the dead in christ rising. Those in the Light get "salvation" and get to live together with Him - just like "so shall we ever be with the Lord," only different words. So Paul is teaching us that the rapture is the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord; these are back to back events. Matt. 27 says, "the earth did quake....and the graves were opened." When the two witnesses rise, there is an earthquake. I am convinced when the dead in christ rise, it will cause a worldwide earthquake. that is the sudden destruction Paul speaks of.

John is in perfect agreement with Paul. He saw the raptured church in heaven in Rev. 7, before he has even started the 70th week. So the bible definitely teaches a pretrib rapture. But it is not where we have been taught to look. there is no rapture in Rev. 4:1 - that is JOHN being caught up. Lamad

Yes, I agree with your previous responses in this thread about the pre- trib rapture. I just want you to elaborate more on the exact timing. I always thought that it would occur in rev 4 when John was caught up( showing us a picture) and that this will start the timing of the events in revelation .. Please mention some bible verses that show that the rapture happens at the great earthquake on the 6th seal and how it ties into the rapture verses of thes 4 and 1 cor 15 51-52. There are many earthquakes that happen at different times. There very well could be an earthquake when the rapture happens, I just don't believe it's the same passage that you mentioned.

I don't believe that the rapture happens at the time when the 2 witnesses rise. Could you clarify this? From previous posts, I really don't think you mean that.

In my opinion , the great earthquake of Mathew 27 when some old testament bodies were raised, literally happened after Jesus resurrection. It is different than the rapture of thes 4 and 2 cor . Which Paul spoke if a mystery, not sudden destruction. That verse is in Matthew 24.

I agree that we are in heaven in rev. 7. And that the rapture happens before the 7 year trib or 70 th week.

I do believe that there will be a small gap of time between the rapture and the 70th week. The signing of the peace treaty starts the 7 year trib, not the rapture . Scripture in daniel 9 makes that clear. It may not happen on the exact day of the rapture . More to follow... BT

 

[niki3cos]

Matthew 24:36
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

Source: Biblegateway.com

 

[bibletruth469]

Of course, know one knows the exact day or hour of the rapture . I am only mentioning the sequence of events in the book of revelation. I believe that the sequence falls at revelation 4 . I am having trouble believing that the timing will occur at the 6th seal. Lamad- please explain your thoughts. Thanks

 

[iamlamad]

Of course, know one knows the exact day or hour of the rapture . I am only mentioning the sequence of events in the book of revelation. I believe that the sequence falls at revelation 4 . I am having trouble believing that the timing will occur at the 6th seal. Lamad- please explain your thoughts. Thanks

The trouble you should be having is believing the rapture is at 4:1. If you allowed a whole classroom of 5th graders who had never heard of this before, to read John 4:1-2, and asked them what it meant, I am convinced 100% would say it was God calling John to heaven so He could show John events of the future. There is simply NO HINT even of the rapture of the church. John wrote, "after these things" several more times in the book, each time as a transitional phrase to start a new revelation or a new part of one revelation. They are not magic words that mean "after the church age."

I was reading in Dan 9:27, just minding my own business. When my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst," suddenly God spoke to me and I heard these words: You could find that exact midpoint, clearly marked in the book of Revelation. In fact, you could find the entire 70th week clearly marked." As He said that last part, I knew in my spirit that I could find the entire 70th week "clearly marked" because the beginning and ending would use the same "marker." That knowledge did not come through the words, it came as a download - I just suddenly knew it. I was dumbfounded and could not speak, but my spirit man instantly asked: "how would I find that?"

So God explained how I could find the exact midpoint "clearly marked." He said that every time He mentioned an event that started at the midpoint and continued to the end of the week, He always included the 3 1/2 year period of time (one half of the week). So when I found those mentions I would be very close to the exact midpoint. He could have just told me - but He has seldom taught me that way. I struggled for maybe two months, trying to find something that was "clearly marked." But finally I did: the exact midpoint is clearly marked with a 7: the 7th trumpet. The entire week is clearly marked with 7's. The beginning is the 7th seal, and the end is the 7th vial. At the 7th vial, it even says, "it is done."

So once I found out the 70th week does not begin at the first seal, I went to chapters 4 & 5, and said, "Lord, there MUST BE clues here that show this is NOT the beginning of the week. So this began my study of chapters 4 & 5. This was the most intense time I have ever had with our Lord, for it was almost like He sat beside my desk and taught me. First I got stuck on John weeping much. I could not get away from that. I kept bugging God: "God, why did we need to know that John wept, and why much?" I guess for two weeks I bugged Him about that, and finally He said, "it shows timing." I could not find timing there anywhere! So I kept on bugging Him. Finally He said, "It also shows the movement of time." All these times when He spoke, I heard his voice and His words. It was not the still small voice. I heard Him very clearly! I guess this was now about one month of study in chapter 4, and I could not see timing or the movement of time.

Finally God had mercy on my slowness, and said this: "I will ask you three questions. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this passage of scripture.

1) Why did John not immediately see me at the right hand of the Father when He looked into the throne room? There are many verses that show that is where I went.

2) Why was 'no man found' in the search John watched for one worthy? If you read ahead, I was found. But this search John watched ended in failure and "no man was found."

3) Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?

I was slow. I could not answer any of these questions. I bugged Him for weeks for help. I was spending perhaps two to four hours a day, reading and meditating on this passage. Finally after more weeks, God had mercy and said suddenly, "go study chapter 12." As soon as I arrived at chapter 12, He said, "this was me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular what the dragon would be doing in the second half of the week. However, I chose to show John what the dragon DID, when I was born. Those first five verses where a 'history lesson' to John. Count how many times Dragon is used, including pronouns." So I counted and got 32 times. I could agree, that chapter is all about the dragon. So after a few minutes of me reading that chapter, suddenly He said, "you can go back to chapters 4 & 5 now."

Suddenly everything was different! Suddenly I understood the answer to all the questions! Suddenly I could see timing and the passing of time. It was all there, but it seemed I had been blinded. To this day I am not sure if He suddenly "downloaded" the understanding, or if hearing "history lesson" was what I needed to understand.

From eternity past to eternity future, that has only been about 33 years that Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father. That was while he was on earth. He laid aside His attribute of omnipresence, and was ONLY in His body on earth. (Of course the Holy Spirit was still omnipresent.) So the reason He was not instantly seen at the right hand of the Father, is because He was at that moment ON THE EARTH. Why was "no man found" in the first seach John watched to completion? It was because He had not yet risen from the dead to become the Redeemer of man. Why was the Holy Spirit still there in the throne room? It was because He had not yet ascended. But once we get a little farther, we see that another search was began as soon as that first search ended, and by this time, Jesus had risen from the dead, and was IMMEDIATELY found as one worthy to break the seals. Then, John got to see the very moment Jesus ascended, right after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended.

So all that was to set the CONTEXT for the first seal! Go and study these two chapters now, with these thoughts in mind: you will see that the instant Jesus arrived in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down. this is showing us the timing was around 32 AD. Jesus went immediately to get the scroll from the Fathers hand, and He began immediately breaking the seals. You cannot find 2000 years hidden there, for it is simply NOT there. The first seals were broken around 32 AD. We cannot find any hint of a long wait until we get to the 5th seal, which was the church age martyrs. Stephen was one of the first, as well as the others that Paul put to death. many thought these were 70th week martyrs - but they are not. If they were 70th week martyrs they would KNOW they had only to wai to the end of seven years. No, Stephen was among the first, and they had no idea how long.

But if we understand the answer God gave them, it is a strong HINT to the timing of the rapture. they were told they must wait for the last martyr to be killed as they were, as CHURCH AGE martyrs. It could not mean the manner of death, for it was different for many of them. So what would make the last church age martyr? Of course the END of the church age. So this in itself is a strong HINT of the truth of the pretrib rapture. It is the pretrib rapture that ENDS the church age. So what is the next event John mentions after the 5th seal? Of course the 6th seal, which is the signs of the imminent coming of the Day of the Lord.

If we understand Paul in 1 Thes. 5, he tells us that the rapture and the start of the Day are back to back events; the rapture is the trigger for the Day. If you read closely you will see that Paul is still talking about the rapture, but giving us the timing. There is a SUDDENLY....but what is it? It is the rapture. AT this sudden event there is a great earthquake, which is Paul's "Sudden destruction." If you read Matt. 27, it says, "the earth did quake....and the graves were opened. This is telling us that when God resurrects people from the dead, it causes a great earthquake. We see this also at the resurrection of the two witnesses. It is harder to see, but the greatest earthquake of all, at the 7th vial, is the resurrection of the Old Testament saints, on the "last day." So it is the resurrection of the dead in Christ that causes this "sudden destruction" earthquake. But those that are alive and remain are caught up one microsecond later, so the earthquake does not get them either. Paul says we get "salvation" (the rapture) and get to "live together with Him." In the previous chapter he said, 'so shall we ever be with the Lord." It is saying the same thing in different words. So the truth is, Paul did not change the subject in chapter 5, but rather told us the TIMING of the rapture: it is the trigger for the Day.

Now turn to Revelation. You see the earthquake is the FIRST event of the 6th seal. The rapture is what triggers the 6th seal, which is the SIGNS for the start of the Day of the Lord, exactly what Paul teaches us. Then, in chapter 7, John saw the church in heaven, right after the rapture. Don't get distracted by the two words, "great tribulation" for John has not yet even started the 70th week, much less got to the last half of the week. this is NOT the "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of, for Jesus had to add that those days would be greater than has even been or ever will be. What John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, people will be being put to death for their testimony around the globe. It is that way in half the world today.

Do you see now, how Paul and John are in perfect agreement? Chapter six ends with "the day of His wrath has come." Most people cannot believe what John wrote, but it is there. If we study further and compare Joel 2, Isaiah 2 and Rev. 6, we see they all agree these are the signs for the start of the Day of the Lord. The first trumpet is the start of His wrath; the destruction of the planet.

Lamad

 

[bibletruth469]

I believe that the God gives us His truths in the written word of God, not by private interpretation . Look at 2 Peter 1:20 " knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation ". We must only adhere to the word of scripture . Everything we need is contained in it.

 

[iamlamad]

I believe that the God gives us His truths in the written word of God, not by private interpretation . Look at 2 Peter 1:20 " knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation ". We must only adhere to the word of scripture . Everything we need is contained in it.

Exactly! One cannot make a doctrine of one verse; truth must fit every verse on the subject. Paul and John are in perfect agreement as to the timing of the pretrib rapture. Please keep in mind, Paul is the ONLY writer of the New Testament that received revelation on the rapture of the Bride. John did not see the rapture. But God gave us a great blessing and allowed John to see the raptured church in heaven so he could write about it. Now we have that proof in black and white. Lamad

 

[Bible2]

bibletruth469 said in post 101:

Please mention some bible verses that show that the rapture happens at the great earthquake on the 6th seal and how it ties into the rapture
verses of thes 4 and 1 cor 15 51-52.

Some people say that the 6th seal ties in with the rapture verses of Matthew 24:29-31 (and 2 Thessalonians 2:1). But Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 are two different sets of events. For Revelation 6:12-13 will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, whereas Matthew 24:29-31 (like Revelation 19:7-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29). Also, when Revelation 6:12-13 occurs, the moon's light will appear blood-red, whereas when Matthew 24:29 occurs, the moon's light won't be seen at all. There will also be one point between the time of Revelation 6:12-13 and the time of Matthew 24:29 when the moon's light temporarily won't be seen at all, during 1/3 of the night (Revelation 8:12).

Also, the sun appearing to be darkened in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For it will happen again during the 4th trumpet (part of the tribulation's 2nd stage), for 1/3 of the day (Revelation 8:12), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2), and then again during the 5th vial (Revelation 16:10), part of the tribulation's 4th and final stage, the 3rd stage being the literal 3.5-year time period of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11-14). Also, what will appear like "stars" falling from the sky in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For subsequently, during the 3rd trumpet, what will appear like a star will fall from the sky (Revelation 8:10-11), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:1). And then again, mid-tribulation, what will appear like stars will descend from the sky (Revelation 12:4).

bibletruth469 said in post 101:

Please mention some bible verses that show that the rapture happens at the great earthquake on the 6th seal and how it ties into the rapture verses of thes 4 and 1 cor 15 51-52.

There aren't any.

For the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by only a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the first heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

bibletruth469 said in post 101:

There are many earthquakes that happen at different times.

Good point.

The 2nd woe/6th trumpet earthquake (Revelation 11:13-14, cf. Revelation 9:12-13) will destroy 1/10 of Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8,13) and kill 7,000 people (Revelation 11:13), right after the two witnesses are resuscitated and taken up to heaven (Revelation 11:11-13). There will be a subsequent earthquake after the 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15,19). And then there will be yet another earthquake after the 7th vial is poured out (Revelation 16:17-20). Between the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial, the first 6 vials will occur in order (Revelation 16). Before all these earthquakes, one will occur after the 7th seal is unsealed (Revelation 8:1,5) and before the first trumpet sounds (Revelation 8:7). There will also be another, even-earlier earthquake after the 6th seal is unsealed (Revelation 6:12).

bibletruth469 said in post 101:

I don't believe that the rapture happens at the time when the 2 witnesses rise.

That's right.

The future raising of the two witnesses from the dead (Revelation 11:11) won't occur at the church's resurrection into immortality at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), but will be like, for example, the past resuscitation of the mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). And the future ascension of the two witnesses "up" into heaven (Revelation 11:12) won't occur at the church's rapture at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), but will be like, for example, the past ascension of the mortal bodies of Enoch and Elijah into heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

For the two witnesses' resuscitation and ascension will occur at one point during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, as part of its 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13), before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15). And then out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage (Revelation 16). But the church's resurrection into immortality and its being raptured (gathered together to Jesus) won't occur until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), which won't occur until after the entire tribulation is over (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), after the 7th vial has been completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the two witnesses, like Enoch and Elijah did (and also like the apostles Paul and John each did, temporarily, at one point during their lifetimes: 2 Corinthians 12:2,7, Revelation 4:1-2), will ascend "up" all the way into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 11:12). But the church will be raptured only as high as the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

 

[Bible2]

niki3cos said in post 102:

Matthew 24:36
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

Note that Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible that at some point in the future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the first verse means that no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the 2nd verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

 

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[iamlamad]

I believe that the God gives us His truths in the written word of God, not by private interpretation . Look at 2 Peter 1:20 " knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation ". We must only adhere to the word of scripture . Everything we need is contained in it.

Are you saying you do not believe God will teach us the real meaning behind scripture? Did you never read?

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

However, bibletruth, most people do not know HOW to get the Holy Spirit to teach them. By the way, this was not my private interpretation, it was HIS. IS God not allowed to have His interpretation? If you will notice I always back up what I say with scripture. Sometimes I just let the scripture speak. However, there are some here that twist every scripture I write. It seems some just cannot let the scripture speak for itself.

Added later: "twist every scripture" was not the right way to say that. Rather, they just do not understand the scripture in the way I do.
Lamad

 

[iamlamad]

The 7th trumpet is the start of God's wrath.

Sorry, a lot of things happen at the 7th trumpet, but God's wrath begins at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet. Read about this trumpet, and then read the prophecy about it in Joel 1. Note that Joel 1 calls this the Day of the Lord. His Day is a day of wrath; there are many verses that tell us this.

Lamad

 

[bibletruth469]

Are you saying you do not believe God will teach us the real meaning behind scripture? Did you never read?

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

However, bibletruth, most people do not know HOW to get the Holy Spirit to teach them. By the way, this was not my private interpretation, it was HIS. IS God not allowed to have His interpretation? If you will notice I always back up what I say with scripture. Sometimes I just let the scripture speak. However, there are some here that twist every scripture I write. It seems some just cannot let the scripture speak for itself. Lamad

Yes, I agree with you, of course the Holy Spirit lives within the true Christian and He will teach and guide us to all understanding . 1 cor 2:10" But God hath reveled them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit seacheth all things , yea, the deep things of God" . Therefore, we understand these deep things of God by the Holy Spirit. He draws us to understanding . But this understanding comes from the scripture. Also, scripture interprets scripture .

I went back and read again what you wrote and it seems like you were studying by His word( I apologize that I misunderstood you). I just know that there are some pastors and teachers that say things like" God told me", and it has nothing to do with the scripture . This is dangerous and can mislead a lot if people . After going back to what you wrote, I don't think you are doing this.

Yes, you are also right, people can twist what people write; that's why it is so important to be very clear when we write and back up everything that is doctrinal with scripture found only in the bible .

 

[ebedmelech]

The 7th trumpet is the start of God's wrath.

No...actually it does more than that. It ushers in eternity after judgment also.

Let's look at this through Revelation 11:15-19:

Revelation 11:15:
15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”


This coincides with what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:25-28:
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Christ will return the reign back to the Father! This is what the twentyfour elders are announcing in Revelation 11:16-18:
16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.
18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

This remains to be a furture event! At this point Christ is reigning but pre-trib theory denies this...even though Christ clearly received the reign from the Father upon his resurrection in Matthew 28:18-20:
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

To deny Christ reigns now is to deny scripture. He sent the apostles forth based on receiving all authority from God!!!

Finally...Christ resurrection is what opened heaven for us!!! He is "the ark of the covenant" in Revelation 11:19:
19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.


Continuing with scripture, it's Hebrews 9:23-28 that tells us Christ is the ark or the covenant...verses 23 and 24 of Hebrews 9 makes the point:
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

This is with the 7th trumpet. Yet still there's no pretrib rapture...every scripture put forth suggesting a pretrib rapture has to be made to say that.

Read 1 Corinthians 15 very carefully...the only rapture is "the last day"...and Jesus confirms that also when He says four times that it's the last day in John 6.

Moreover, Jesus NEVER spoke to a rapture.

 

[iamlamad]

No...actually it does more than that. It ushers in eternity after judgment also.

Let's look at this through Revelation 11:15-19:

Revelation 11:15:
15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”


This coincides with what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:25-28:
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Christ will return the reign back to the Father! This is what the twentyfour elders are announcing in Revelation 11:16-18:
16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.
18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

This remains to be a furture event! At this point Christ is reigning but pre-trib theory denies this...even though Christ clearly received the reign from the Father upon his resurrection in Matthew 28:18-20:
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

To deny Christ reigns now is to deny scripture. He sent the apostles forth based on receiving all authority from God!!!

Finally...Christ resurrection is what opened heaven for us!!! He is "the ark of the covenant" in Revelation 11:19:
19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.


Continuing with scripture, it's Hebrews 9:23-28 that tells us Christ is the ark or the covenant...verses 23 and 24 of Hebrews 9 makes the point:
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

This is with the 7th trumpet. Yet still there's no pretrib rapture...every scripture put forth suggesting a pretrib rapture has to be made to say that.

Read 1 Corinthians 15 very carefully...the only rapture is "the last day"...and Jesus confirms that also when He says four times that it's the last day in John 6.

Moreover, Jesus NEVER spoke to a rapture.

It was Jesus through the Holy spirit that gave Paul the revelation of the rapture. Remember, Paul's gathering was INSPIRED writing.

Sorry, You just don't understand. OF COURSE Christ reigns, but do you remember what He said as He was being judged? "My Kingdom is not from here." And Pilate answered, "ah, so you ARE a King." Yes, Jesus has been reigning over HIS Kingdom, but His kingdom is in the hearts of men. Since the days of Adam, Satan has been the god of this world - having usurped dominion from Adam.

At the 7th trumpet the reign of Satan as the god of this word ENDS: the kingdoms of the world are transferred from Satan to Jesus.


No...actually it does more than that. It ushers in eternity after judgment also.

Of course, when the kingdoms of earth are transferred to Jesus, He can fulfill all prophecy concerning the world, including judgment and the Millennial reign of Christ.

This remains to be a furture event! At this point Christ is reigning but pre-trib theory denies this...even though Christ clearly received the reign from the Father upon his resurrection

This is a very bold statement, and I don't think it is true. I AM pretrib. OF course the 70th week is still future, as is the 1000 year reign. Pretrib does not deny this. But if you say that Christ is reigning over the kingdoms of the word since His resurrection, you are WRONG. The devil is STILL the "god of this present world." It is at the 7th trumpet, a FUTURE event, that the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Him.

To deny Christ reigns now is to deny scripture. He sent the apostles forth based on receiving all authority from God!!!

He is reigning now over His SPIRITUAL Kingdom. You are right, He received this authority and turned in immediately over to the CHURCH. WE have authority in OUR life to drive the devil OUT in our own life - every believer has this authority - although few exercise it. WE have authority to make disciples of all nations. Did you notice that Jesus did NOT drive all demons to the bottomless pit? He did not Drive Satan into the bottomless pit either. Why? Simply because it was NOT TIME for that. Satan will remain the god of this world until the 7th trumpet.

Finally...Christ resurrection is what opened heaven for us!!! He is "the ark of the covenant" in Revelation 11:19:

This is very poor theory.

Continuing with scripture, it's Hebrews 9:23-28 that tells us Christ is the ark or the covenant...verses 23 and 24 of Hebrews 9 makes the point:

Jesus is NOT the "ark of the covenant." There IS an ark of the covenant in heaven, and the earthly one is a copy of that one. The earthly ark had to be cleansed with animal blood, and ashes, But the real Ark, in heaven had have JESUS BLOOD. "
the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."

Yet still there's no pretrib rapture...every scripture put forth suggesting a pretrib rapture has to be made to say that.

This is only your theory and a poor one. The truth is, all scriptures must be MIS-understood to come up with a posttrib rapture. Go back and study Paul's rapture. If you understand it, Paul tells us that it comes JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord, and as the trigger for the Day. John is in perfect agreement, showing us the raptured church IN HEAVEN in chapter 7 and starting the Day of the Lord in chapter 8. Where do you imagine the "trib" or 70th week begins? My guess is, you believe and say you are posttrib but you cannot accurately pinpoint where the "trib" begins in Revelation.

Read 1 Corinthians 15 very carefully...the only rapture is "the last day"...and Jesus confirms that also when He says four times that it's the last day in John 6.

YOu are mixing up scripture and not understanding, as I said above. Yes, you are right, there WILL BE a rapture on the "last day." That is the day of the 7th vial. Did you notice there the great earthquake? that is caused by the resurrection of the OLD TESTAMENT saints. THEY rise on the last day, exactly what Jesus said. But PAUL's rapture is the trigger for the start of the day of the Lord. You were mistaken, there is no "last day" in 1 Cor. 15. Paul does give ORDER:

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

If you read at Paul's rapture, he tells us it is a COMING. but there Jesus comes only to the air and clouds. Paul then tells us HIS rapture happens "at the last trump." This does NOT mean at the 7th trumpet in Revelation. It probably means the last long trumpet blast at the feast of trumpets.

I think you need to start over, and with no preconceptions this time. I call starting over "Prophecy 101." Paul was certainly "pretrib." God is pretrib. If you don't believe this, then you will not be watching and will be left behind. Your FAITH will be to be left behind. God always honors our faith.

I am guessing you know the terrors that await those left behind. Why then would you CHOOSE this when God has offered you a chance to escape all these things?

Lamad

 

[ebedmelech]

It was Jesus through the Holy spirit that gave Paul the revelation of the rapture. Remember, Paul's gathering was INSPIRED writing.

Where?

Sorry, You just don't understand. OF COURSE Christ reigns, but do you remember what He said as He was being judged? "My Kingdom is not from here." And Pilate answered, "ah, so you ARE a King." Yes, Jesus has been reigning over HIS Kingdom, but His kingdom is in the hearts of men. Since the days of Adam, Satan has been the god of this world - having usurped dominion from Adam.

Anything Jesus said to Pilate is prior to His crucifixion. Now...explain Jesus saying this:
Matthew 28:18:
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

It doesn't say "spiritual"...iIt says Jesus has "all authority in heaven and on earth" ALL means ALL...so how does Jesus have all authority and not reign?

At the 7th trumpet the reign of Satan as the god of this word ENDS: the kingdoms of the world are transferred from Satan to Jesus.

No...actually it does more than that. It ushers in eternity after judgment also.

Of course, when the kingdoms of earth are transferred to Jesus, He can fulfill all prophecy concerning the world, including judgment and the Millennial reign of Christ.

This remains to be a furture event! At this point Christ is reigning but pre-trib theory denies this...even though Christ clearly received the reign from the Father upon his resurrection

Read the text...and please show where a "pretrib rapture" is in scripture.

This is a very bold statement, and I don't think it is true. I AM pretrib. OF course the 70th week is still future, as is the 1000 year reign. Pretrib does not deny this. But if you say that Christ is reigning over the kingdoms of the word since His resurrection, you are WRONG. The devil is STILL the "god of this present world." It is at the 7th trumpet, a FUTURE event, that the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Him.

Based on what?

To deny Christ reigns now is to deny scripture. He sent the apostles forth based on receiving all authority from God!!!

He is reigning now over His SPIRITUAL Kingdom. You are right, He received this authority and turned in immediately over to the CHURCH. WE have authority in OUR life to drive the devil OUT in our own life - every believer has this authority - although few exercise it. WE have authority to make disciples of all nations. Did you notice that Jesus did NOT drive all demons to the bottomless pit? He did not Drive Satan into the bottomless pit either. Why? Simply because it was NOT TIME for that. Satan will remain the god of this world until the 7th trumpet.

Scriptural support??

Finally...Christ resurrection is what opened heaven for us!!! He is "the ark of the covenant" in Revelation 11:19:

This is very poor theory.

Continuing with scripture, it's Hebrews 9:23-28 that tells us Christ is the ark or the covenant...verses 23 and 24 of Hebrews 9 makes the point:

Jesus is NOT the "ark of the covenant." There IS an ark of the covenant in heaven, and the earthly one is a copy of that one. The earthly ark had to be cleansed with animal blood, and ashes, But the real Ark, in heaven had have JESUS BLOOD. "
the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."

So explain this in Hebrews 9:11:
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

Everything in the tabernacle pointed to Christ!

Yet still there's no pretrib rapture...every scripture put forth suggesting a pretrib rapture has to be made to say that.

This is only your theory and a poor one. The truth is, all scriptures must be MIS-understood to come up with a posttrib rapture. Go back and study Paul's rapture. If you understand it, Paul tells us that it comes JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord, and as the trigger for the Day. John is in perfect agreement, showing us the raptured church IN HEAVEN in chapter 7 and starting the Day of the Lord in chapter 8. Where do you imagine the "trib" or 70th week begins? My guess is, you believe and say you are posttrib but you cannot accurately pinpoint where the "trib" begins in Revelation.

Why does Hebrews say the items in the tabernacle were copies of the true one? Again...you show me where Paul speaks of a pre trib rapture.

Read 1 Corinthians 15 very carefully...the only rapture is "the last day"...and Jesus confirms that also when He says four times that it's the last day in John 6.

YOu are mixing up scripture and not understanding, as I said above. Yes, you are right, there WILL BE a rapture on the "last day." That is the day of the 7th vial. Did you notice there the great earthquake? that is caused by the resurrection of the OLD TESTAMENT saints. THEY rise on the last day, exactly what Jesus said. But PAUL's rapture is the trigger for the start of the day of the Lord. You were mistaken, there is no "last day" in 1 Cor. 15. Paul does give ORDER:

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

If you read at Paul's rapture, he tells us it is a COMING. but there Jesus comes only to the air and clouds. Paul then tells us HIS rapture happens "at the last trump." This does NOT mean at the 7th trumpet in Revelation. It probably means the last long trumpet blast at the feast of trumpets.

I think you need to start over, and with no preconceptions this time. I call starting over "Prophecy 101." Paul was certainly "pretrib." God is pretrib. If you don't believe this, then you will not be watching and will be left behind. Your FAITH will be to be left behind. God always honors our faith.

I am guessing you know the terrors that await those left behind. Why then would you CHOOSE this when God has offered you a chance to escape all these things?

Lamad

Show the pretrib rapture in scripture...and we'll go from there.

 

[iamlamad]

Where?

Anything Jesus said to Pilate is prior to His crucifixion. Now...explain Jesus saying this:
Matthew 28:18:
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

It doesn't say "spiritual"...iIt says Jesus has "all authority in heaven and on earth" ALL means ALL...so how does Jesus have all authority and not reign?

Read the text...and please show where a "pretrib rapture" is in scripture.


Based on what?

Scriptural support??


So explain this in Hebrews 9:11:
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

Everything in the tabernacle pointed to Christ!


Why does Hebrews say the items in the tabernacle were copies of the true one? Again...you show me where Paul speaks of a pre trib rapture.

Show the pretrib rapture in scripture...and we'll go from there.

All authority is given to me, therefore GO and make disciples of all nations...What ever this authority was, He gave it to the church. Do we have authority over sinners? DO WE have a right to judge them? No, that will be Christ's job when the Kingdoms of the world become His. Did you notice that Jesus did NOT send every devil to the bottomless pit as soon as He rose from the dead? Of course He did not. It is not the right time for that. if you will notice, He does not come to set up his Kingdom until AFTER the Kingdoms have been transferred to Him. And this happens at the midpoint of the week.

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So what does this mean in your mind?


Why does Hebrews say the items in the tabernacle were copies of the true one? Again...you show me where Paul speaks of a pre trib rapture.

What on earth does this have to do with a pretrib rapture? I cannot make the connect; you will have to assist me.

Show the pretrib rapture in scripture...and we'll go from there

Look in Rev. 7; the raptured church in heaven, BEFORE John has even begun the "trib."

look in 1 thes 5. Paul shows us the rapture is the trigger for the Day. Then look at the 6th vial and see where the Day begins.

Lamad

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 116:

No...actually it does more than that. It ushers in eternity after judgment also.

Let's look at this through Revelation 11:15-19:

Revelation 11:15:
15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”

Are you saying that Jesus will return immediately after the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15-19)? If so, note that it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for some 2,000 years.

ebedmelech said in post 116:

This coincides with what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:25-28:
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Note that 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 doesn't require that Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father immediately at his 2nd coming, only that he will do that sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming. For right after his 2nd coming, "he must reign" (1 Corinthians 15:25) on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then he must defeat the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). Then he must bodily resurrect and judge the unsaved of all times, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Only then will he have "put all enemies under his feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25), including death itself (1 Corinthians 15:26), which will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:14). Only after that will Jesus deliver up the kingdom to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24). Then a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created and the Father will descend from heaven to the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).

ebedmelech said in post 116:

26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

1 Corinthians 15:26 refers to when the first death will be cast into the 2nd death, the lake of fire, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). The resurrection at the great white throne judgment is the resurrection at "the end" (1 Corinthians 15:24), and will include everyone who wasn't part of the first resurrection (Revelation 20:5), the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

ebedmelech said in post 116:

At this point Christ is reigning but pre-trib theory denies this...even though Christ clearly received the reign from the Father upon his resurrection in Matthew 28:18-20:
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the first century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7), so that he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now in heaven ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend bodily from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to physically reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21) with a rod of iron with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he's Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).

ebedmelech said in post 116:

Moreover, Jesus NEVER spoke to a rapture.

Note that Jesus did speak of the rapture, for it's the gathering together of the church at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which he mentioned in Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and John 14:3b.

The English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in the future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31).