Pre Trib Bible Study

ebedmelech

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All authority is given to me, therefore GO and make disciples of all nations...What ever this authority was, He gave it to the church. Do we have authority over sinners? DO WE have a right to judge them? No, that will be Christ's job when the Kingdoms of the world become His. Did you notice that Jesus did NOT send every devil to the bottomless pit as soon as He rose from the dead? Of course He did not. It is not the right time for that. if you will notice, He does not come to set up his Kingdom until AFTER the Kingdoms have been transferred to Him. And this happens at the midpoint of the week.
No...he didn't give it to the church. Break the passage down:

*"All authority has been geven to me in heaven and on earth". "Authority" is the Greek word "exousia"...it means "power"...so Jesus has ALL power.

*Jesus then says "go therefore" (or on the basis that He has ALL power), "and make disciple of all nations".

*Jesus also encourages them saying "I am with you always even unto the end of the age". Jesus sends them on the basis he has ALL power.

The apostle Paul affirms this in Ephesians 1 as well as many other places...but Ephesisans 1:18-21:
18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.


*When Christ was resurrected, He was seated at the "right hand" of God, which is the position of POWER. He is "FAR ABOVE ALL rule, and authority, and power and dominion"!!!

*How long is that? Paul says "not only in THIS AGE but also in the one to come". Can t get anymore specific than that? Christ reigns right now!!!
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So what does this mean in your mind?
Indeed! What it means is God and Jesus have made the kingdom a reality! Notice it's speaking of the end...it says the kingdom has become the kingdom of our Lord (God), and of His Christ (Jesus). This agrees with 1 Corinthians 15:28:
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

That's what's going on! This is THE END...and Jesus returns authority to God!!!

Why does Hebrews say the items in the tabernacle were copies of the true one? Again...you show me where Paul speaks of a pre trib rapture.

What on earth does this have to do with a pretrib rapture? I cannot make the connect; you will have to assist me.
The point there is that Jesus is the ark of the covenant in Rev 11:19...go back and read what I said in post #116.
Show the pretrib rapture in scripture...and we'll go from there

Look in Rev. 7; the raptured church in heaven, BEFORE John has even begun the "trib."

look in 1 thes 5. Paul shows us the rapture is the trigger for the Day. Then look at the 6th vial and see where the Day begins.

Lamad

Rev 7 doesn't speak to a rapture, that's you being taught that and believing that's what it is.

That teaching ignores the 1st century saints who went through the great tribulation of Matthew 24 along with the destruction of the temple. How do you get a rapture from that? Show it to me. What you have is believers in the presence of Christ coming OUT of the great tribulation of the 1st century.

As for 1 Thessalonians 5...again you have been taught, and believe that. Paul is speaking of the great tribulation and the destruction of Jerusalem, which is "the day of the Lord".

Do a study on "the day of the Lord" it occurs when God is executing judgment.

There is a final "day of the Lord" to come...that is in Rev 19:11-21.
 
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ebedmelech

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Are you saying that Jesus will return immediately after the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15-19)? If so, note that it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for some 2,000 years.



Note that 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 doesn't require that Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father immediately at his 2nd coming, only that he will do that sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming. For right after his 2nd coming, "he must reign" (1 Corinthians 15:25) on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then he must defeat the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). Then he must bodily resurrect and judge the unsaved of all times, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Only then will he have "put all enemies under his feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25), including death itself (1 Corinthians 15:26), which will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:14). Only after that will Jesus deliver up the kingdom to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24). Then a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created and the Father will descend from heaven to the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).



1 Corinthians 15:26 refers to when the first death will be cast into the 2nd death, the lake of fire, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). The resurrection at the great white throne judgment is the resurrection at "the end" (1 Corinthians 15:24), and will include everyone who wasn't part of the first resurrection (Revelation 20:5), the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).



As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the first century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7), so that he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now in heaven ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend bodily from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to physically reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21) with a rod of iron with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he's Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).



Note that Jesus did speak of the rapture, for it's the gathering together of the church at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which he mentioned in Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and John 14:3b.

The English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in the future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31).
That's quite a bit of "conjectured theological eschatiology" there Bible2...and it ignores a lot of things that have already occurred in history.

See my response to iamlamad.
 
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ebedmelech said in post 122:

What it means is God and Jesus have made the kingdom a reality!

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). In the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21) and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

ebedmelech said in post 122:

That teaching ignores the 1st century saints who went through the great tribulation of Matthew 24 along with the destruction of the temple.

Note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Also, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the end of Herod's temple building (also called the 2nd temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2, for the stones of the 2nd temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single 2nd temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd-temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall, for it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple-complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd-temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
 
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iamlamad

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No...he didn't give it to the church. Break the passage down:

*"All authority has been geven to me in heaven and on earth". "Authority" is the Greek word "exousia"...it means "power"...so Jesus has ALL power.

What does a Greek expert say? Yes, power but power of AUTHORITY

Thayers:

1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases
a) leave or permission
2) physical and mental power
a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises
3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)
4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)
a) universally
1) authority over mankind
b) specifically
1) the power of judicial decisions
2) of authority to manage domestic affairs


Lamad
 
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iamlamad

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Originally Posted by iamlamad
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So what does this mean in your mind?
Indeed! What it means is God and Jesus have made the kingdom a reality! Notice it's speaking of the end...it says the kingdom has become the kingdom of our Lord (God), and of His Christ (Jesus). This agrees with 1 Corinthians 15:28:
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

That's what's going on! This is THE END...and Jesus returns authority to God!!!

Did you forget about all that happens BETWEEN the 7th trumpet and 'the end?" All things will not be subjected to Him until at least after the battle of Gog and Magog after the 1000 years. Sorry but I think you are miles off in your theory here. The truth is, Satan has been the God of this world since the day Adam sinned.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

John 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:


The reign of Satan as the prince of this earth ENDS at the 7th trumpet. It is at that time, and NOT BEFORE that time that the kingdoms of the world are transferred.

Revelation 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.



Why does Jesus "take" to himself his great power at this time?

Meanwhile, when Jesus arose, all Authority was given to Him, and He gave it to the church, for we are the BODY of Christ on earth. He is in heaven so what gets done on earth must be done by HIS BODY on earth. He is the head of the body in heaven.

Case in point: it is a waste of time to pray to God about a demonic problem, for God gave US the authority to drive devils out. There is no scripture anywhere telling us to pray to God about the devil. WE are told to resist him.
Lamad
 
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bibletruth469

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iamlamad said:
Hmmm. You are right in part: Jesus did say over and over in John 6 that He would raise them up on "the last day." That last day is the day of the 7th vial in chapter 16. That is the day the two witnesses will rise and that is also the say ALL the Old Testament saints will rise. It is the last 24 hour period of the age. So there WILL be a resurrection then, and also a "rapture," for they will be caught up into heaven as guests for the wedding.

But Paul was very clear on the timing of his rapture. It would be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Those in darkness would get "sudden destruction" - the earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising - and those alive and remaining will be caught up a microsecond later so the earthquake does not affect them. Where is that earthquake in Rev? It is the earthquake at the 6th seal. The raptured church is seen around the throne room in chapter 7. John has not even started the 70th week yet, for it begins at the 7th seal. Therefore, but John and Paul are VERY pretrib.

Therefore, may I suggest you begin watching for the PRETRIB rapture? How many times Did Jesus say "watch?"

Question: if someone is expecting to see the Beast first, can they really have FAITH for a pretrib rapture? I don't see how. Their faith is that they will see the Beast. So my second question is, How can they be raptured when they have NO FAITH for it? Everything we get from heaven we get by faith. I am convinced the rapture will be the same. I am also convinced, if someone is determined to see the Beast, GOD will not override their desire and faith. Therefore, the belief in the timing of Paul's rapture is a serious thing. Lamad.

Hi Lamad, you mentioned here that the rapture will happen before a great earthquake at the 6th seal. The 2 rapture passages quoted by Paul do not mention an earthquake 1 theo 4, 1 cor 15. Just your thoughts .. also in Matthew 24:29 it says"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven , and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken". An earthquake could happen at this time when it says the power of the heavens shall be shaken . I am a firm believer that this passage is about the second coming of Christ and not the rapture which will happen 7 years before. For one thing, Matt 24 is about a gathering , not a departure or a raising . There is difference as you and I agree( pre trib) . The post trib camps will call these 2 events as one in the same.

Some people also think that the sixth seal and Matthew 24 are the same events, however when one reads about the 7th trumpet, rev 11:19 " And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament : and there were lightnings, and voices , and thunderings , and an earthquake , and great hail". This verse does parallel Matt 24 very well. However, when one looks at Joel 2:30-32, it mentions' before the great and terrible day of the lord'. I always thought that verse about Christ coming back to earth at His second coming( not to rapture ) , but it says ' before ' in this verse. You have an interesting case about your pre trib rapture views. We as bible believing Christians should always study the scripture for what it says and not take various bible teachers views or tradition as fact until we as driven by the Holy Spirit look in light of the scripture. We are forever learning until God takes us home !
 
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iamlamad

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Hi Lamad, you mentioned here that the rapture will happen before a great earthquake at the 6th seal. The 2 rapture passages quoted by Paul do not mention an earthquake 1 theo 4, 1 cor 15. Just your thoughts .. also in Matthew 24:29 it says"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven , and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken". An earthquake could happen at this time when it says the power of the heavens shall be shaken . I am a firm believer that this passage is about the second coming of Christ and not the rapture which will happen 7 years before. For one thing, Matt 24 is about a gathering , not a departure or a raising . There is difference as you and I agree( pre trib) . The post trib camps will call these 2 events as one in the same.

Some people also think that the sixth seal and Matthew 24 are the same events, however when one reads about the 7th trumpet, rev 11:19 " And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament : and there were lightnings, and voices , and thunderings , and an earthquake , and great hail". This verse does parallel Matt 24 very well. However, when one looks at Joel 2:30-32, it mentions' before the great and terrible day of the lord'. I always thought that verse about Christ coming back to earth at His second coming( not to rapture ) , but it says ' before ' in this verse. You have an interesting case about your pre trib rapture views. We as bible believing Christians should always study the scripture for what it says and not take various bible teachers views or tradition as fact until we as driven by the Holy Spirit look in light of the scripture. We are forever learning until God takes us home !


If you note, this earthquake and great hail were seen IN HIS TEMPLE! Do you really believe there was actual hail falling IN THE TEMPLE of GOD in HEAVEN? I sure don't! This was a VISION and what John saw was a PREVIEW of coming attractions: this earthquake and hail was seen then but was pointing to the 7th vial when they actually happen on earth.

What many have not realized, there are TWO TIMES these signs in the sun and moon occur. We can see them both in Joel; Joel 2 shows the signs before the Day of the Lord, (also Rev. 6) and Joel three shows the signs before Jesus returns on the White horse (also mat. 24). So two times these signs will be show, for two different purposes (just like Jesus comings! :thumbsup:)
By the way, these two signs are different. They will not both appear the same way.

Paul did not make his two references to the rapture identical. I find no problem with that; we put them together and get the whole picture. Paul did not associate his rapture with an earthquake; only "sudden destruction." I made the connection with earthquake and sudden destruction through Mat. 27 where the elders were raise when Jesus was raised: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." I suddenly realized it was the resurrection that caused the earthquake. Also an earthquake happened when the Two witnesses were raised. It makes perfect sense: bodies dead for 2000 years, will disappear; the atoms that made up that body (or perhaps quarks) could be miles away from the original grave site. they could be deep under ground. But they will all fly together and make up that body just as it was before death, only change it to a resurrection body. This will cause a great, worldwide earthquake. If we are talking about the Old Testament saints, many of them were dead before the flood! Their atoms or quarks could be below mountain ranges! When they rise from the dead, it will cause such an earthquake, the mountains will simply disappear: shake down into the earth as through a sieve. Do you know where this earthquake happens in Rev?

Lamad
 
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bibletruth469 said in post 127:

For one thing, Matt 24 is about a gathering , not a departure or a raising .

Regarding "a departure", are you thinking of 2 Thessalonians 2:3? If so, The "falling away" (KJV) (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some believers will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), in connection with the revealing of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and a worldwide persecution (Matthew 24:9-13) which will accompany his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Believers who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it's derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the first century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

bibletruth469 said in post 127:

For one thing, Matt 24 is about a gathering , not a departure or a raising .

Regarding "a raising", note that Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the same, 2nd coming of Jesus as Revelation 19:7 to 20:6. And the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.
 
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iamlamad said:
If you note, this earthquake and great hail were seen IN HIS TEMPLE! Do you really believe there was actual hail falling IN THE TEMPLE of GOD in HEAVEN? I sure don't! This was a VISION and what John saw was a PREVIEW of coming attractions: this earthquake and hail was seen then but was pointing to the 7th vial when they actually happen on earth.

What many have not realized, there are TWO TIMES these signs in the sun and moon occur. We can see them both in Joel; Joel 2 shows the signs before the Day of the Lord, (also Rev. 6) and Joel three shows the signs before Jesus returns on the White horse (also mat. 24). So two times these signs will be show, for two different purposes (just like Jesus comings! :thumbsup:)
By the way, these two signs are different. They will not both appear the same way.

Paul did not make his two references to the rapture identical. I find no problem with that; we put them together and get the whole picture. Paul did not associate his rapture with an earthquake; only "sudden destruction." I made the connection with earthquake and sudden destruction through Mat. 27 where the elders were raise when Jesus was raised: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." I suddenly realized it was the resurrection that caused the earthquake. Also an earthquake happened when the Two witnesses were raised. It makes perfect sense: bodies dead for 2000 years, will disappear; the atoms that made up that body (or perhaps quarks) could be miles away from the original grave site. they could be deep under ground. But they will all fly together and make up that body just as it was before death, only change it to a resurrection body. This will cause a great, worldwide earthquake. If we are talking about the Old Testament saints, many of them were dead before the flood! Their atoms or quarks could be below mountain ranges! When they rise from the dead, it will cause such an earthquake, the mountains will simply disappear: shake down into the earth as through a sieve. Do you know where this earthquake happens in Rev?

Lamad

You are right about the earthquake pictured at the 7th trumpet . In rev 16: 17-21 it is the 7th vial. Verse 18" and there were voices and thunders ,and lightnings and there was a great earthquake , such as was not since man were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake and so great ". It's like you said, John sees what is going to happen when the temple was opened.

Yes, if one studies Joel very carefully, there are 2 instances that seem like they are different . I need to study them further for myself.

Concerning Matt 27, yes the bodies were raised ( some of saints) and there was an earthquake at that time. I do believe that the bible shows us pictures and types . This could be a ' type ' of the rapture ( not sure). However you make a good case.

I do take the bible in the literal sense and plain sense. I know that many will make the book of revelation as a total symbolic book . However, one can't just explain it away. You can't just pick and choose what is literal and not. If it is a symbol , God shows us that through the scripture .
 
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Bible2 said:
Regarding "a departure", are you thinking of 2 Thessalonians 2:3? If so, The "falling away" (KJV) (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some believers will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), in connection with the revealing of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and a worldwide persecution (Matthew 24:9-13) which will accompany his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Believers who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it's derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the first century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Regarding "a raising", note that Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the same, 2nd coming of Jesus as Revelation 19:7 to 20:6. And the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.

To bible 2- I think of departure as the rapture or catching away as in thes 4 and 1 cor 15 not as in the falling away ( the great apostasy ) as in 2 theo 2. They are different events.

I believe that ' gathering' and ' raising' and ' falling away ' are three different terms. I have not studied the Greek on this but from the scripture verses content , one can see that they are different.

The church is married at rev 19 and the 2nd coming happens in the same time frame. How do post tribbers explain this!!
 
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To bible 2- I think of departure as the rapture or catching away as in thes 4 and 1 cor 15 not as in the falling away ( the great apostasy ) as in 2 theo 2. They are different events.

I believe that ' gathering' and ' raising' and ' falling away ' are three different terms. I have not studied the Greek on this but from the scripture verses content , one can see that they are different.

The church is married at rev 19 and the 2nd coming happens in the same time frame. How do post tribbers explain this!!

Ha ha! They have been trying (unsuccessfully) for many years to explain this! They DENY the clear word of God and move the wedding to the earth. Yet many people who have been allowed to see heaven these past few years have been SHOWN the preparations for this great wedding feast. It is all prepared for us now. The tables go farther than the eye can see.

Lamad
 
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You are right about the earthquake pictured at the 7th trumpet . In rev 16: 17-21 it is the 7th vial. Verse 18" and there were voices and thunders ,and lightnings and there was a great earthquake , such as was not since man were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake and so great ". It's like you said, John sees what is going to happen when the temple was opened.

Yes, if one studies Joel very carefully, there are 2 instances that seem like they are different . I need to study them further for myself.

Concerning Matt 27, yes the bodies were raised ( some of saints) and there was an earthquake at that time. I do believe that the bible shows us pictures and types . This could be a ' type ' of the rapture ( not sure). However you make a good case.

I do take the bible in the literal sense and plain sense. I know that many will make the book of revelation as a total symbolic book . However, one can't just explain it away. You can't just pick and choose what is literal and not. If it is a symbol , God shows us that through the scripture .

AS you study Joel 2 and 3, you will see that 2 is speaking of the start of the Day of the Lord and chapter 3 is clearly speaking of the coming of our Lord in great power and glory for the battle of Armageddon. Good post. :thumbsup:

Lamad
 
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Regarding "a departure", are you thinking of 2 Thessalonians 2:3? If so, The "falling away" (KJV) (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some believers will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), in connection with the revealing of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and a worldwide persecution (Matthew 24:9-13) which will accompany his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Believers who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it's derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the first century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).



Regarding "a raising", note that Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the same, 2nd coming of Jesus as Revelation 19:7 to 20:6. And the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.

Bible2, have you ever heard of "coining" a new word? Have you ever heard of someone useing an old word for a NEW meaning? It happens all the time. Words change meaning over time. "Paradigm" used to mean exactly what its two compound words meant: para as in parallel and digm as a comparison. It used to mean, bringing two things up parallel to each other (perhaps in a speech) so as to compare them. But university professors and others have slowly changed this meaning to some kind of great SHIFT. In its new meaning there is nothing parallel.

My point is, apostasia is a compound word. The first, APO can certainly mean a SPACIAL departure of one part from the whole. Look it up in blue letter bible. I have done in many times. Other Greek experts (other then the those that wrote Blue Letter Bible comentary: I think that is Thayers) also say this word CAN MEAN a spacial departure.

However, one can easily determine Paul's meaning without any Greek study at all! In verse 6, Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining." Paul, HOW can we know" It is obvious that he just TOLD us in a previous verse!
But he did it in a way that was disguised in a way. So he wrote this phrase so people would back up and dig a little deeper into what he just wrote.

But the real "clincher" is verses 6-8 taken together. They tell us a story twice: there is a restraining force holding back the man of sin from being revealed. But that restraining force one day will be REMOVED or taken out of the way, and THEN the man of sin will be revealed.

Verse 6 tell us this, and verses 7 & 8 tell us this. So if we look back to verse 3, we see that the man of sin IS ALREADY revealed (In Paul's argument). Therefore, the restrainer HAD TO HAVE BEEN removed, departed, or taken out of the way IN THE FIRST PART of this verse.

The only way this can be is if Paul meant by apostasia a DEPARTURE or "one taken out of the way."

I might add, this is the ONLY meaning of the word apostasia that satisfies Paul's theme of the gathering. It is the departure of the one restraining the revealing of the man of sin.

I fully understand the difficulty one will have with this, when their preconceived glasses see the rapture and the Day all happening in Rev. 19 as Jesus descends. However, if this fits anyone reading this, just TAKE THESE preconceived glasses OFF and understand Paul's argument!

IF Paul had taught them the rapture was at the end, and they were misled to believe the Day had begun, why would they be upset or troubled? They just had to wait a little, and they would be caught up away from their tribulation! But the truth is, they WERE troubled! Why?

IT makes a LOT of sense if they had been taught (Just as we can read in 1 Thes. 5) that the rapture is the trigger for the SIGNS of the Day with the Day to follow. So now they have heard that the day had started and they were IN the day already and STILL ON EARTH. Of course they were be troubled! Did Paul not know the truth? Did he tell them something false?

Well, Paul's argument is simple. There is a good way to TELL FOR SURE if you are IN the day of the Lord. If you see the man of sin revealed, then you can KNOW FOR SURE the day has started and you are IN IT. But, before the man of sin can be revealed, the one restraining that revealing MUST BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. Really, men have made this much more difficult than it really is.

Lamad
 
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bibletruth469 said in post 130:

I know that many will make the book of revelation as a total symbolic book . However, one can't just explain it away. You can't just pick and choose what is literal and not. If it is a symbol , God shows us that through the scripture .

That's right.

Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it's unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

*******

bibletruth469 said in post 131:

The church is married at rev 19 and the 2nd coming happens in the same time frame. How do post tribbers explain this!!

Note that what you said supports the post-tribulation rapture view. Also, see the "marriage" parts of post 25.
 
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iamlamad said in post 134:

In verse 6, Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining."

See the last section of post 25.

iamlamad said in post 134:

IF Paul had taught them the rapture was at the end, and they were misled to believe the Day had begun, why would they be upset or troubled?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation coming of Jesus and rapture (gathering together) of the church, which won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-21). But the apostle Paul, in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, wasn't so much countering pre-tribulation rapturism as he was countering full preterism. Full preterism mistakenly says that the day of the Lord/Christ is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2), in the sense of already present, that the 2nd coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the church is already past (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism, for it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some believers (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

-

Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all have originated from the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD. Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), or is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events, which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

-

Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), Job first suffered the loss of his wealth and his servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But Job remained patient through all his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was completed, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3), and giving him the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against Job, for Job was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when God allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust God that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).
 
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Bible2, have you ever heard of "coining" a new word? Have you ever heard of someone useing an old word for a NEW meaning? It happens all the time. Words change meaning over time. "Paradigm" used to mean exactly what its two compound words meant: para as in parallel and digm as a comparison. It used to mean, bringing two things up parallel to each other (perhaps in a speech) so as to compare them. But university professors and others have slowly changed this meaning to some kind of great SHIFT. In its new meaning there is nothing parallel.

My point is, apostasia is a compound word. The first, APO can certainly mean a SPACIAL departure of one part from the whole. Look it up in blue letter bible. I have done in many times. Other Greek experts (other then the those that wrote Blue Letter Bible comentary: I think that is Thayers) also say this word CAN MEAN a spacial departure.

However, one can easily determine Paul's meaning without any Greek study at all! In verse 6, Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining." Paul, HOW can we know" It is obvious that he just TOLD us in a previous verse!
But he did it in a way that was disguised in a way. So he wrote this phrase so people would back up and dig a little deeper into what he just wrote.

But the real "clincher" is verses 6-8 taken together. They tell us a story twice: there is a restraining force holding back the man of sin from being revealed. But that restraining force one day will be REMOVED or taken out of the way, and THEN the man of sin will be revealed.

Verse 6 tell us this, and verses 7 & 8 tell us this. So if we look back to verse 3, we see that the man of sin IS ALREADY revealed (In Paul's argument). Therefore, the restrainer HAD TO HAVE BEEN removed, departed, or taken out of the way IN THE FIRST PART of this verse.

The only way this can be is if Paul meant by apostasia a DEPARTURE or "one taken out of the way."

I might add, this is the ONLY meaning of the word apostasia that satisfies Paul's theme of the gathering. It is the departure of the one restraining the revealing of the man of sin.

I fully understand the difficulty one will have with this, when their preconceived glasses see the rapture and the Day all happening in Rev. 19 as Jesus descends. However, if this fits anyone reading this, just TAKE THESE preconceived glasses OFF and understand Paul's argument!

IF Paul had taught them the rapture was at the end, and they were misled to believe the Day had begun, why would they be upset or troubled? They just had to wait a little, and they would be caught up away from their tribulation! But the truth is, they WERE troubled! Why?

IT makes a LOT of sense if they had been taught (Just as we can read in 1 Thes. 5) that the rapture is the trigger for the SIGNS of the Day with the Day to follow. So now they have heard that the day had started and they were IN the day already and STILL ON EARTH. Of course they were be troubled! Did Paul not know the truth? Did he tell them something false?

Well, Paul's argument is simple. There is a good way to TELL FOR SURE if you are IN the day of the Lord. If you see the man of sin revealed, then you can KNOW FOR SURE the day has started and you are IN IT. But, before the man of sin can be revealed, the one restraining that revealing MUST BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. Really, men have made this much more difficult than it really is.

Lamad
the truth vs the pre trib version's rewriting of the truth

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
the coming of the Lord and our gathering to Him, is the rapture...right?
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
so THAT DAY of our gathering to Him and His Coming is not at hand yet in Paul's day
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
don't let a pre tribber or preterist tell u differently
for that day shall not come,
THAT DAY (day of His Coming and our gathering to Him - the rapture) cannot come until two things happen first
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


so the falling away has to happen first, and the son of perdition be revealed.

but u pre trib guys and gals like to change falling away (from faith) into just another word for the rapture as well.

so in the pre trib world, it would read,
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the day of the rapture) shall not come,
except there come the rapture first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

lol.
1Tim4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
u guys and gals don't think that this 1Tim4 departure from faith is the rapture too, do u?
pre trib version?

1Tim4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall be raptured, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
 
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zeke37

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To bible 2- I think of departure as the rapture or catching away as in thes 4 and 1 cor 15 not as in the falling away ( the great apostasy ) as in 2 theo 2. They are different events.

I believe that ' gathering' and ' raising' and ' falling away ' are three different terms. I have not studied the Greek on this but from the scripture verses content , one can see that they are different.

The church is married at rev 19 and the 2nd coming happens in the same time frame. How do post tribbers explain this!!

not sure I understand u'r question.
post tribbers know that the 2nd Coming happens first, then the marriage happens right then



the bride is not shown at all in Rev19...not until Rev20

only the declaration about the bride now being ready, (ready to be raptured/gathered) is made in Rev19

the bride is on earth, now ready.

that's why Christ leaves heaven with His armies, in the 2nd half of the chapter
to come to earth and get them.

not only do we see the "raptured" gathered to Him on Mt Zion in Rev14,
but we see the folks who are raptured and Resurrected gathered together in Rev20,
ready for the first Resurrection

beast opponents are included in the first Resurrection,
making this impossible to be pre trib.

Ha ha! They have been trying (unsuccessfully) for many years to explain this! They DENY the clear word of God and move the wedding to the earth. Yet many people who have been allowed to see heaven these past few years have been SHOWN the preparations for this great wedding feast. It is all prepared for us now. The tables go farther than the eye can see.

Lamad
huh? who's been allowed? who's been SHOWN?
you cant find the wedding in Rev19 cause it's not there.
only a declaration about who is ready, is made.

and beast opponents will be included in that wedding
 
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bibletruth469

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zeke37 said:
not sure I understand u'r question.
post tribbers know that the 2nd Coming happens first, then the marriage happens right then



the bride is not shown at all in Rev19...not until Rev20

only the declaration about the bride now being ready, (ready to be raptured/gathered) is made in Rev19

the bride is on earth, now ready.

that's why Christ leaves heaven with His armies, in the 2nd half of the chapter
to come to earth and get them.

not only do we see the "raptured" gathered to Him on Mt Zion in Rev14,
but we see the folks who are raptured and Resurrected gathered together in Rev20,
ready for the first Resurrection

beast opponents are included in the first Resurrection,
making this impossible to be pre trib.

huh? who's been allowed? who's been SHOWN?
you cant find the wedding in Rev19 cause it's not there.
only a declaration about who is ready, is made.

and beast opponents will be included in that wedding

The bride is shown in rev 19 at the marriage supper of the lamb. Rev 19:6-10. We come back with Christ rev19:14-16. The church is already in heaven before Christ and armies( clothed in fine linen white and clean ) - represents the church. The church is 'white and clean ' already been judged and purified at the judgement seat of Christ . 1 cor3:12-15,2 cor. 5:10. Note: there must be allocated time for judgement and supper before the raptured church comes back with Christ in rev 19. According to your view(post trib) how can 1- church be raptured, 2 - judgement seat and 3 -supper all be at the same time? Think about that .

IMO , you've got it backwards. It should be rapture 1st, (those dead and alive in Christ) the 144,000 is not the raptured church, it is sealed Jews. A gathering is not the same thing as a catching up( rapture).

What are beast opponents? Nothing evil has anything to do with the raptured church, judgment seat of Christ or the marriage supper of the lamb . Maybe you are referring to the Great supper of God? This happens on earth when the fowl feed on the dead on the earth. It is totally different than the marriage supper .
 
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iamlamad

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not sure I understand u'r question.
post tribbers know that the 2nd Coming happens first, then the marriage happens right then



the bride is not shown at all in Rev19...not until Rev20

only the declaration about the bride now being ready, (ready to be raptured/gathered) is made in Rev19

the bride is on earth, now ready.

that's why Christ leaves heaven with His armies, in the 2nd half of the chapter
to come to earth and get them.

not only do we see the "raptured" gathered to Him on Mt Zion in Rev14,
but we see the folks who are raptured and Resurrected gathered together in Rev20,
ready for the first Resurrection

beast opponents are included in the first Resurrection,
making this impossible to be pre trib.


huh? who's been allowed? who's been SHOWN?
you cant find the wedding in Rev19 cause it's not there.
only a declaration about who is ready, is made.

and beast opponents will be included in that wedding

What did I write?

"Ha ha! They have been trying (unsuccessfully) for many years to explain this! They DENY the clear word of God and move the wedding to the earth."

You have just shown that what I wrote was correct.

Revelation 19:7

New King James Version (NKJV)

7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.”



Of course, you deny that His wrath "has come" in chapter 6, so of course you will do the same here. But what is the INTENT of the author? "Has come" means it is time NOW. So the wedding takes place RIGHT HERE in this verse. Period. End of argument.



9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”

The supper CANNOT COME until the wedding is done. The supper is here so the wedding has FINISHED. Now the supper comes and IS FINISHED in this verse.

Of course I understand, preconceptions will cause all kinds of arguments that the clear word of God means something different. I am convinced the intent of the Author here is that the wedding is now DONE.

Here is someone who saw the tables ready:

"We also could see the wedding banquet table, everything was already served. It had no beginning or end. We saw the chairs prepared for us. There was also crowns of eternal life that are ready to be taken by us. We saw delicious foods that are already set, for all of those that will be invited to the Wedding of the Lamb." Spiritlessons.com (This was one of 7 youths God took to heaven.)


Lamad
 
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