No...he didn't give it to the church. Break the passage down:All authority is given to me, therefore GO and make disciples of all nations...What ever this authority was, He gave it to the church. Do we have authority over sinners? DO WE have a right to judge them? No, that will be Christ's job when the Kingdoms of the world become His. Did you notice that Jesus did NOT send every devil to the bottomless pit as soon as He rose from the dead? Of course He did not. It is not the right time for that. if you will notice, He does not come to set up his Kingdom until AFTER the Kingdoms have been transferred to Him. And this happens at the midpoint of the week.
Indeed! What it means is God and Jesus have made the kingdom a reality! Notice it's speaking of the end...it says the kingdom has become the kingdom of our Lord (God), and of His Christ (Jesus). This agrees with 1 Corinthians 15:28:The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
So what does this mean in your mind?
The point there is that Jesus is the ark of the covenant in Rev 11:19...go back and read what I said in post #116.Why does Hebrews say the items in the tabernacle were copies of the true one? Again...you show me where Paul speaks of a pre trib rapture.
What on earth does this have to do with a pretrib rapture? I cannot make the connect; you will have to assist me.
Show the pretrib rapture in scripture...and we'll go from there
Look in Rev. 7; the raptured church in heaven, BEFORE John has even begun the "trib."
look in 1 thes 5. Paul shows us the rapture is the trigger for the Day. Then look at the 6th vial and see where the Day begins.
Lamad
That's quite a bit of "conjectured theological eschatiology" there Bible2...and it ignores a lot of things that have already occurred in history.Are you saying that Jesus will return immediately after the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15-19)? If so, note that it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).
Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).
So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).
Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.
At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.
Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for some 2,000 years.
Note that 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 doesn't require that Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father immediately at his 2nd coming, only that he will do that sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming. For right after his 2nd coming, "he must reign" (1 Corinthians 15:25) on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then he must defeat the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). Then he must bodily resurrect and judge the unsaved of all times, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Only then will he have "put all enemies under his feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25), including death itself (1 Corinthians 15:26), which will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:14). Only after that will Jesus deliver up the kingdom to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24). Then a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created and the Father will descend from heaven to the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).
1 Corinthians 15:26 refers to when the first death will be cast into the 2nd death, the lake of fire, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). The resurrection at the great white throne judgment is the resurrection at "the end" (1 Corinthians 15:24), and will include everyone who wasn't part of the first resurrection (Revelation 20:5), the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the first century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7), so that he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).
After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now in heaven ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).
But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend bodily from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to physically reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21) with a rod of iron with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).
After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he's Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).
Note that Jesus did speak of the rapture, for it's the gathering together of the church at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which he mentioned in Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and John 14:3b.
The English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in the future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31).
ebedmelech said in post 122:
What it means is God and Jesus have made the kingdom a reality!
ebedmelech said in post 122:
That teaching ignores the 1st century saints who went through the great tribulation of Matthew 24 along with the destruction of the temple.
No...he didn't give it to the church. Break the passage down:
*"All authority has been geven to me in heaven and on earth". "Authority" is the Greek word "exousia"...it means "power"...so Jesus has ALL power.
Originally Posted by iamlamadThe kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.Indeed! What it means is God and Jesus have made the kingdom a reality! Notice it's speaking of the end...it says the kingdom has become the kingdom of our Lord (God), and of His Christ (Jesus). This agrees with 1 Corinthians 15:28:
So what does this mean in your mind?
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
That's what's going on! This is THE END...and Jesus returns authority to God!!!
iamlamad said:Hmmm. You are right in part: Jesus did say over and over in John 6 that He would raise them up on "the last day." That last day is the day of the 7th vial in chapter 16. That is the day the two witnesses will rise and that is also the say ALL the Old Testament saints will rise. It is the last 24 hour period of the age. So there WILL be a resurrection then, and also a "rapture," for they will be caught up into heaven as guests for the wedding.
But Paul was very clear on the timing of his rapture. It would be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Those in darkness would get "sudden destruction" - the earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising - and those alive and remaining will be caught up a microsecond later so the earthquake does not affect them. Where is that earthquake in Rev? It is the earthquake at the 6th seal. The raptured church is seen around the throne room in chapter 7. John has not even started the 70th week yet, for it begins at the 7th seal. Therefore, but John and Paul are VERY pretrib.
Therefore, may I suggest you begin watching for the PRETRIB rapture? How many times Did Jesus say "watch?"
Question: if someone is expecting to see the Beast first, can they really have FAITH for a pretrib rapture? I don't see how. Their faith is that they will see the Beast. So my second question is, How can they be raptured when they have NO FAITH for it? Everything we get from heaven we get by faith. I am convinced the rapture will be the same. I am also convinced, if someone is determined to see the Beast, GOD will not override their desire and faith. Therefore, the belief in the timing of Paul's rapture is a serious thing. Lamad.
Hi Lamad, you mentioned here that the rapture will happen before a great earthquake at the 6th seal. The 2 rapture passages quoted by Paul do not mention an earthquake 1 theo 4, 1 cor 15. Just your thoughts .. also in Matthew 24:29 it says"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven , and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken". An earthquake could happen at this time when it says the power of the heavens shall be shaken . I am a firm believer that this passage is about the second coming of Christ and not the rapture which will happen 7 years before. For one thing, Matt 24 is about a gathering , not a departure or a raising . There is difference as you and I agree( pre trib) . The post trib camps will call these 2 events as one in the same.
Some people also think that the sixth seal and Matthew 24 are the same events, however when one reads about the 7th trumpet, rev 11:19 " And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament : and there were lightnings, and voices , and thunderings , and an earthquake , and great hail". This verse does parallel Matt 24 very well. However, when one looks at Joel 2:30-32, it mentions' before the great and terrible day of the lord'. I always thought that verse about Christ coming back to earth at His second coming( not to rapture ) , but it says ' before ' in this verse. You have an interesting case about your pre trib rapture views. We as bible believing Christians should always study the scripture for what it says and not take various bible teachers views or tradition as fact until we as driven by the Holy Spirit look in light of the scripture. We are forever learning until God takes us home !
bibletruth469 said in post 127:
For one thing, Matt 24 is about a gathering , not a departure or a raising .
bibletruth469 said in post 127:
For one thing, Matt 24 is about a gathering , not a departure or a raising .
iamlamad said:If you note, this earthquake and great hail were seen IN HIS TEMPLE! Do you really believe there was actual hail falling IN THE TEMPLE of GOD in HEAVEN? I sure don't! This was a VISION and what John saw was a PREVIEW of coming attractions: this earthquake and hail was seen then but was pointing to the 7th vial when they actually happen on earth.
What many have not realized, there are TWO TIMES these signs in the sun and moon occur. We can see them both in Joel; Joel 2 shows the signs before the Day of the Lord, (also Rev. 6) and Joel three shows the signs before Jesus returns on the White horse (also mat. 24). So two times these signs will be show, for two different purposes (just like Jesus comings! )
By the way, these two signs are different. They will not both appear the same way.
Paul did not make his two references to the rapture identical. I find no problem with that; we put them together and get the whole picture. Paul did not associate his rapture with an earthquake; only "sudden destruction." I made the connection with earthquake and sudden destruction through Mat. 27 where the elders were raise when Jesus was raised: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." I suddenly realized it was the resurrection that caused the earthquake. Also an earthquake happened when the Two witnesses were raised. It makes perfect sense: bodies dead for 2000 years, will disappear; the atoms that made up that body (or perhaps quarks) could be miles away from the original grave site. they could be deep under ground. But they will all fly together and make up that body just as it was before death, only change it to a resurrection body. This will cause a great, worldwide earthquake. If we are talking about the Old Testament saints, many of them were dead before the flood! Their atoms or quarks could be below mountain ranges! When they rise from the dead, it will cause such an earthquake, the mountains will simply disappear: shake down into the earth as through a sieve. Do you know where this earthquake happens in Rev?
Lamad
Bible2 said:Regarding "a departure", are you thinking of 2 Thessalonians 2:3? If so, The "falling away" (KJV) (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some believers will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), in connection with the revealing of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and a worldwide persecution (Matthew 24:9-13) which will accompany his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Believers who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).
The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it's derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the first century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
Regarding "a raising", note that Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the same, 2nd coming of Jesus as Revelation 19:7 to 20:6. And the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.
To bible 2- I think of departure as the rapture or catching away as in thes 4 and 1 cor 15 not as in the falling away ( the great apostasy ) as in 2 theo 2. They are different events.
I believe that ' gathering' and ' raising' and ' falling away ' are three different terms. I have not studied the Greek on this but from the scripture verses content , one can see that they are different.
The church is married at rev 19 and the 2nd coming happens in the same time frame. How do post tribbers explain this!!
You are right about the earthquake pictured at the 7th trumpet . In rev 16: 17-21 it is the 7th vial. Verse 18" and there were voices and thunders ,and lightnings and there was a great earthquake , such as was not since man were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake and so great ". It's like you said, John sees what is going to happen when the temple was opened.
Yes, if one studies Joel very carefully, there are 2 instances that seem like they are different . I need to study them further for myself.
Concerning Matt 27, yes the bodies were raised ( some of saints) and there was an earthquake at that time. I do believe that the bible shows us pictures and types . This could be a ' type ' of the rapture ( not sure). However you make a good case.
I do take the bible in the literal sense and plain sense. I know that many will make the book of revelation as a total symbolic book . However, one can't just explain it away. You can't just pick and choose what is literal and not. If it is a symbol , God shows us that through the scripture .
Regarding "a departure", are you thinking of 2 Thessalonians 2:3? If so, The "falling away" (KJV) (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some believers will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), in connection with the revealing of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and a worldwide persecution (Matthew 24:9-13) which will accompany his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Believers who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).
The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it's derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the first century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
Regarding "a raising", note that Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the same, 2nd coming of Jesus as Revelation 19:7 to 20:6. And the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.
bibletruth469 said in post 130:
I know that many will make the book of revelation as a total symbolic book . However, one can't just explain it away. You can't just pick and choose what is literal and not. If it is a symbol , God shows us that through the scripture .
bibletruth469 said in post 131:
The church is married at rev 19 and the 2nd coming happens in the same time frame. How do post tribbers explain this!!
iamlamad said in post 134:
In verse 6, Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining."
iamlamad said in post 134:
IF Paul had taught them the rapture was at the end, and they were misled to believe the Day had begun, why would they be upset or troubled?
the truth vs the pre trib version's rewriting of the truthBible2, have you ever heard of "coining" a new word? Have you ever heard of someone useing an old word for a NEW meaning? It happens all the time. Words change meaning over time. "Paradigm" used to mean exactly what its two compound words meant: para as in parallel and digm as a comparison. It used to mean, bringing two things up parallel to each other (perhaps in a speech) so as to compare them. But university professors and others have slowly changed this meaning to some kind of great SHIFT. In its new meaning there is nothing parallel.
My point is, apostasia is a compound word. The first, APO can certainly mean a SPACIAL departure of one part from the whole. Look it up in blue letter bible. I have done in many times. Other Greek experts (other then the those that wrote Blue Letter Bible comentary: I think that is Thayers) also say this word CAN MEAN a spacial departure.
However, one can easily determine Paul's meaning without any Greek study at all! In verse 6, Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining." Paul, HOW can we know" It is obvious that he just TOLD us in a previous verse!
But he did it in a way that was disguised in a way. So he wrote this phrase so people would back up and dig a little deeper into what he just wrote.
But the real "clincher" is verses 6-8 taken together. They tell us a story twice: there is a restraining force holding back the man of sin from being revealed. But that restraining force one day will be REMOVED or taken out of the way, and THEN the man of sin will be revealed.
Verse 6 tell us this, and verses 7 & 8 tell us this. So if we look back to verse 3, we see that the man of sin IS ALREADY revealed (In Paul's argument). Therefore, the restrainer HAD TO HAVE BEEN removed, departed, or taken out of the way IN THE FIRST PART of this verse.
The only way this can be is if Paul meant by apostasia a DEPARTURE or "one taken out of the way."
I might add, this is the ONLY meaning of the word apostasia that satisfies Paul's theme of the gathering. It is the departure of the one restraining the revealing of the man of sin.
I fully understand the difficulty one will have with this, when their preconceived glasses see the rapture and the Day all happening in Rev. 19 as Jesus descends. However, if this fits anyone reading this, just TAKE THESE preconceived glasses OFF and understand Paul's argument!
IF Paul had taught them the rapture was at the end, and they were misled to believe the Day had begun, why would they be upset or troubled? They just had to wait a little, and they would be caught up away from their tribulation! But the truth is, they WERE troubled! Why?
IT makes a LOT of sense if they had been taught (Just as we can read in 1 Thes. 5) that the rapture is the trigger for the SIGNS of the Day with the Day to follow. So now they have heard that the day had started and they were IN the day already and STILL ON EARTH. Of course they were be troubled! Did Paul not know the truth? Did he tell them something false?
Well, Paul's argument is simple. There is a good way to TELL FOR SURE if you are IN the day of the Lord. If you see the man of sin revealed, then you can KNOW FOR SURE the day has started and you are IN IT. But, before the man of sin can be revealed, the one restraining that revealing MUST BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. Really, men have made this much more difficult than it really is.
Lamad
To bible 2- I think of departure as the rapture or catching away as in thes 4 and 1 cor 15 not as in the falling away ( the great apostasy ) as in 2 theo 2. They are different events.
I believe that ' gathering' and ' raising' and ' falling away ' are three different terms. I have not studied the Greek on this but from the scripture verses content , one can see that they are different.
The church is married at rev 19 and the 2nd coming happens in the same time frame. How do post tribbers explain this!!
huh? who's been allowed? who's been SHOWN?Ha ha! They have been trying (unsuccessfully) for many years to explain this! They DENY the clear word of God and move the wedding to the earth. Yet many people who have been allowed to see heaven these past few years have been SHOWN the preparations for this great wedding feast. It is all prepared for us now. The tables go farther than the eye can see.
Lamad
zeke37 said:not sure I understand u'r question.
post tribbers know that the 2nd Coming happens first, then the marriage happens right then
the bride is not shown at all in Rev19...not until Rev20
only the declaration about the bride now being ready, (ready to be raptured/gathered) is made in Rev19
the bride is on earth, now ready.
that's why Christ leaves heaven with His armies, in the 2nd half of the chapter
to come to earth and get them.
not only do we see the "raptured" gathered to Him on Mt Zion in Rev14,
but we see the folks who are raptured and Resurrected gathered together in Rev20,
ready for the first Resurrection
beast opponents are included in the first Resurrection,
making this impossible to be pre trib.
huh? who's been allowed? who's been SHOWN?
you cant find the wedding in Rev19 cause it's not there.
only a declaration about who is ready, is made.
and beast opponents will be included in that wedding
not sure I understand u'r question.
post tribbers know that the 2nd Coming happens first, then the marriage happens right then
the bride is not shown at all in Rev19...not until Rev20
only the declaration about the bride now being ready, (ready to be raptured/gathered) is made in Rev19
the bride is on earth, now ready.
that's why Christ leaves heaven with His armies, in the 2nd half of the chapter
to come to earth and get them.
not only do we see the "raptured" gathered to Him on Mt Zion in Rev14,
but we see the folks who are raptured and Resurrected gathered together in Rev20,
ready for the first Resurrection
beast opponents are included in the first Resurrection,
making this impossible to be pre trib.
huh? who's been allowed? who's been SHOWN?
you cant find the wedding in Rev19 cause it's not there.
only a declaration about who is ready, is made.
and beast opponents will be included in that wedding