Pre Trib Bible Study

[Bible2]

bibletruth469 said in post 139:

We come back with Christ rev19:14-16.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It's because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

bibletruth469 said in post 139:

According to your view(post trib) how can 1- church be raptured, 2 - judgement seat and 3 -supper all be at the same time?

At the rapture-meeting in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, compare Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

bibletruth469 said in post 139:

It should be rapture 1st, (those dead and alive in Christ) the 144,000 is not the raptured church, it is sealed Jews.

Regarding "the 144,000 is not the raptured church", the 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4) in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8 (during the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24). They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

bibletruth469 said in post 139:

It should be rapture 1st, (those dead and alive in Christ) the 144,000 is not the raptured church, it is sealed Jews.

Regarding "it is sealed Jews", the 144,000 can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they're from isn't genetic Israel with its twelve genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

bibletruth469 said in post 139:

It should be rapture 1st, (those dead and alive in Christ) the 144,000 is not the raptured church, it is sealed Jews.

Regarding "it is sealed Jews", all obedient people in the church will be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4), along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's first stage (Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). Near the end of this first stage, the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).

After the 2nd stage is over, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while two other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14), and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage (Revelation 16). Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They're those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.

bibletruth469 said in post 139:

A gathering is not the same thing as a catching up( rapture).

Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

 

[iamlamad]

1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It's because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).



At the rapture-meeting in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, compare Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).



Regarding "the 144,000 is not the raptured church", the 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4) in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8 (during the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24). They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).



Regarding "it is sealed Jews", the 144,000 can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they're from isn't genetic Israel with its twelve genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).



Regarding "it is sealed Jews", all obedient people in the church will be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4), along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's first stage (Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). Near the end of this first stage, the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).

After the 2nd stage is over, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while two other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14), and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage (Revelation 16). Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They're those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.



Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

GROAN! Can't you guys read? The 144,000 are descendants of JACOB.
End of story. They are FIRSTFRUITS of the Jews.

If they are the church, JESUS was the firstfruits for us. How many firstfruits can we have?

Lamad

 

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[iamlamad]

None of the saints wait till Rev. 20 to be raptured - changed - resurrrected.
John is just telling us what group he sees.
as - in - if I told you that I saw my first grade class

This does not mean that I am now in that school or class.
I am just with those people that fit that category.

Rev. 19 shows the rapture - when John refers to the wife gets arrayed.
-in righteousness
puts on new clothes /eternal life - 2 Cor. 5

This is shown not to occur until God has judged - avenged the great harlot that did corrupt the earth.

This is dreamland myth. Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received the revelation of the rapture, tells us it happens as the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord, or "last day." We get salvation [rapture] while they get "sudden destruction."

Where is this in Revelation? The sudden destruction is the earthquake at the 6th seal. What does the last verse there say? "The DAY of His wrath has come." [Last day.]

Lamad

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 149:

Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received the revelation of the rapture, tells us it happens as the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord, or "last day."

Regarding "Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received the revelation of the rapture", are you thinking of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52? If so, note that Paul didn't call the rapture itself a mystery, for Jesus had already taught the rapture in the Gospels (John 14:3b, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1). Instead, the mystery shown in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (cf. John 11:26) was the instantaneous changing of living believers into immortal bodies, at the time that dead believers will be resurrected into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). It's only after this occurs that the rapture (the catching up together/gathering together) of all believers will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3b).

iamlamad said in post 149:

Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received the revelation of the rapture, tells us it happens as the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord, or "last day."

Regarding "the Day of the Lord", the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 149:

Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received the revelation of the rapture, tells us it happens as the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord, or "last day."

Regarding the "last day", the last days began in the first century AD, with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2), and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last three, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8), of the seven, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

iamlamad said in post 149:

We get salvation [rapture] while they get "sudden destruction."

1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the two witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry, because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the two witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

iamlamad said in post 149:

The sudden destruction is the earthquake at the 6th seal. What does the last verse there say? "The DAY of His wrath has come."

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[iamlamad]

That's correct that we get salvation at the time of when the wicked get God's wrath. The earthquake of the 6th seal is the time when the two witnesses rise =at the same hour of a great earthquake. This is the earhquake that causes the wicked to afraid.

Rev. 11:13
"And the same hour was there a great earthquake...the remnant were affrighted..."

John did not say they are frightened for the second time of an earthquake.

The two witnesses ascend at the same time as when Jesus comes in the clouds with power and great glory.

Rev. 11:12
"And...they ascended up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies beheld them."

The 5th seal cried out martyrs were waiting for these two to be slain - as part of the brethren before they would find God start to avenge their blood.


The 5th seal martyrs had to wait - until the very last martyr is slain as they were before God will judge and avenge their blood.

The earthquake of the 6th seal is the time when the two witnesses rise

WHY do you continue to write MYTH? STOP IT! Go and read chapter 11. THAT is when the two witnesses arrive...right where John FIRST MENTIONS them. Why is it you insist on re-arranging John's book? It is in GOD GIVEN order, and you have no authorization from HIM to rearrange.

 

[vinsight4u]

[/

 

[iamlamad]

Check out Hebrews 9:28 as to what else happens when we get salvation.

He appears!

Then take that fact and see how it links to the time of the 7th trumpet announcement message first.

9:28
"So Christ...and unto them that look for him shall he appear...unto salvation."


1 John 2:28
"And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."

1John.3:2
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

1 Peter 1:7
"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"


1 Peter 5:4
"And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away." appear/ reward /7th trumpet

Titus 2:13
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

Mark 13:24
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened..."
13:25
"...the stars of heaven fall..." /6th seal of Revelation
13:26
"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." / His glorious appearing

Let's face truth here: Jesus does NOT APPEAR to people when they get born again. I have never yet on all my years heard anyone testify of such a thing. But the day is coming when He will APPEAR! He is going to appear at the rapture.

The Greek word translated here as "to obtain 'salvation'" is "sōtēria."

[FONT=arial, helvetica, 'sans serif']This word is translated into several English words in the New Testament.[/FONT]​

The number one definition is: "

[FONT=arial, helvetica, 'sans serif']deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation"

I know many people when they see this word think "born again." But in Paul's case, the bride of Chirst is DELIVERED at the rapture from what will come on planet earth, i.e. the days of great tribulation. Please notice what Paul said here:

4:[/FONT]​

17

[FONT=arial, helvetica, 'sans serif']Then we which are alive [/FONT]​

and

[FONT=arial, helvetica, 'sans serif'] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And here:
[/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, 'sans serif']5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, 'sans serif'] so shall we ever be with the Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, 'sans serif']we should live together with him.

Do you see these two phrases are saying the VERY SAME THING? Now look at it in context...MY paraphase:

[/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, 'sans serif']For God hath not appointed us to wrath [He has set no appointment for us on earth by being left behind at the rapture to face the Beast and God's wrath poured out] , but to obtain deliverance [by way of the rapture where we escape those things to come, by being caught up] by our Lord Jesus Christ, [/FONT]​

[FONT=arial,helvetica,'sans serif']Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep [dead or alive at the time of the rapture], we should live together with him.

You see, Paul has never left the subject of the rapture. He is just telling us more about it.

LAMAD
[/FONT]​

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 154:

I know many people when they see this word think "born again." But in Paul's case, the bride of Chirst is DELIVERED at the rapture from what will come on planet earth, i.e. the days of great tribulation.

In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, when Paul uses the original Greek word (soteria, G4991) translated as "salvation", he means just that, the "salvation" that every believer obtains (Romans 1:16, Romans 10:9-10; 2 Timothy 3:15) despite any tribulation that he or she may experience (2 Corinthians 1:4-7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, John 16:33), even unto death (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 14:12-13).

iamlamad said in post 154:

MY paraphase:

For God hath not appointed us to wrath [He has set no appointment for us on earth by being left behind at the rapture to face the Beast and God's wrath poured out] , but to obtain deliverance [by way of the rapture where we escape those things to come, by being caught up] by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep [dead or alive at the time of the rapture], we should live together with him.

Regarding "being left behind at the rapture", note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture.

Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

iamlamad said in post 154:

MY paraphase:

For God hath not appointed us to wrath [He has set no appointment for us on earth by being left behind at the rapture to face the Beast and God's wrath poured out] , but to obtain deliverance [by way of the rapture where we escape those things to come, by being caught up] by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep [dead or alive at the time of the rapture], we should live together with him.

Regarding "to face the Beast and God's wrath poured out", 1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b).

Note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the tribulation's seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

iamlamad said in post 154:

MY paraphase:

For God hath not appointed us to wrath [He has set no appointment for us on earth by being left behind at the rapture to face the Beast and God's wrath poured out] , but to obtain deliverance [by way of the rapture where we escape those things to come, by being caught up] by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep [dead or alive at the time of the rapture], we should live together with him.

Regarding "we escape those things to come", note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[iamlamad]

Bible2 wrote,

iamlamad said in post 154:

I know many people when they see this word think "born again." But in Paul's case, the bride of Chirst is DELIVERED at the rapture from what will come on planet earth, i.e. the days of great tribulation.
​

In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, when Paul uses the original Greek word (soteria, G4991) translated as "salvation", he means just that, the "salvation" that every believer obtains (Romans 1:16, Romans 10:9-10; 2 Timothy 3:15) despite any tribulation that he or she may experience (2 Corinthians 1:4-7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, John 16:33), even unto death (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 14:12-13).

One CANNOT pull a verse or a word from a verse OUT OF CONTEXT. In this verse the CONTEXT is the rapture of the church, and in this case in particular, the world SALVATION means the rapture of the church which is the CONTEXT. This is proved by Paul's next statement, "get to live together with him."

We live on earth and HE lives in heaven. There are TWO WAYS to get from earth to heaven; die or be raptured. In this case Paul is NOT TALKING of dying, but rather those who are alive and remain on earth AFTER the dead in Christ have arisen, being caught up WITH THE Dead in Christ, and "so shall we ever be with the Lord" or so shall we "get to live together with Him." So Paul DOES mean "salvation," in that we get raptured and are SAVED from (out of) the days of great tribulation on earth.

LAMAD

 

[JLB777]

Bible2 wrote,

iamlamad said in post 154:

I know many people when they see this word think "born again." But in Paul's case, the bride of Chirst is DELIVERED at the rapture from what will come on planet earth, i.e. the days of great tribulation.
​

In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, when Paul uses the original Greek word (soteria, G4991) translated as "salvation", he means just that, the "salvation" that every believer obtains (Romans 1:16, Romans 10:9-10; 2 Timothy 3:15) despite any tribulation that he or she may experience (2 Corinthians 1:4-7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, John 16:33), even unto death (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 14:12-13).

One CANNOT pull a verse or a word from a verse OUT OF CONTEXT. In this verse the CONTEXT is the rapture of the church, and in this case in particular, the world SALVATION means the rapture of the church which is the CONTEXT. This is proved by Paul's next statement, "get to live together with him."

We live on earth and HE lives in heaven. There are TWO WAYS to get from earth to heaven; die or be raptured. In this case Paul is NOT TALKING of dying, but rather those who are alive and remain on earth AFTER the dead in Christ have arisen, being caught up WITH THE Dead in Christ, and "so shall we ever be with the Lord" or so shall we "get to live together with Him." So Paul DOES mean "salvation," in that we get raptured and are SAVED from (out of) the days of great tribulation on earth.

LAMAD

Salvation for all will be when Jesus returns to gather all His people at the Resurrection/Rapture, as he will return once and stay here.

as it is written -

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:29


JLB

 

[iamlamad]

Salvation for all will be when Jesus returns to gather all His people at the Resurrection/Rapture, as he will return once and stay here.

as it is written -

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:29


JLB

YOu go ahead and IGNORE John 14, and Revelation from chapter 6 on, and watch YOURSELF being left behind when Jesus comes PRETRIB for His Bride.

Yes, I agree with Hebrews: He will appear a SECOND time FOR HIS bride, and then a THIRD TIME WITH His bride. But notice, He will appear ONLY to those who are waiting for Him. If you are looking for the Beast of chapter 13 first, you will MISS His second coming, and be LEFT BEHIND.

If you go back to Paul's rapture, HE TELLS US it comes before the Day of the Lord, and as the TRIGGER for the signs of the Day. John shows us that THE DAY begins with "The DAY of His Wrath has come." This is the WARNING because the 6th seal are the SIGNS. The Day begins with the 7th seal officially opening THE DAY, and starting with the first trumpet judgment. A Post trib rapture is IMPOSSIBLE in the scriptures. The church would MISS the marriage.

LAMAD

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I

...
Regarding "being left behind at the rapture", note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture....
.

It is a huge teaching of the Word that not all who are the "virgins" =believers who call Him "LORD" will escape the things coming on the earth and stand before the Son of Man in heaven's temple, as consecrated priests of the heavenly order of the Firstborn of earth.

The teaching of Jesus in the parable of the ten virgins is that half of them are without the oil of the Holy Spirit and so, not keeping His Lamp/burning in them. They do not go into the heavenly temple for the heavenly priesthood consecration dressed in the Garments of Salvation for the Glory, as oracled in Leviticus 8.

The first revelation of eschatology was given to Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam, before the flood, even, and it was given to Enoch to write for these last days, for those who will be living in the last days when the second consummation of sin on earth comes, which is called the Great Tribulation.

Jesus talks about the half of the virgins who missed His coming by not watching with oil in their lamps, and the door was shut and they could not get in, but before Jesus told that, Enoch had written plainly of it for these last days, in Enoch 50.
Enoch 40 shows the rapture and transformation to glory of the righteous living saints and those that see it who missed it repent and believe in the name of the Son of Man, but they do not get the glory transformation bodies, though they are saved in His name.

Enoch 50
50 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect,
And the light of days shall abide upon them,
And glory and honour shall turn to the holy,

2On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.

And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
And He will cause the others to witness this
That they may repent
And forgo the works of their hands.
3They shall have no honour through the name of the Lord of Spirits,
Yet through His name shall they be saved,
And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them,
For His compassion is great.
4And He is righteous also in His judgement,
And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself:
At His judgement the unrepentant shall perish before Him.
5And from henceforth I will have no mercy on them, saith the Lord of Spirits.