Pre Trib Bible Study

[yeshuasavedme]

No rants, please.
No attacking the messenger, please.
Attacking the messenger only shows your absence of Bible knowledge and understanding and your absolute refusal "to study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed".

The doctrine of the gathering together of the dead in Christ and the living in Christ saints in their regenerated bodies made for the glory is revealed by the Holy Spirit for those who study the living oracles for truth, which teach us the truths of God's one plan.

The gathering together unto Christ in heaven, before His heavenly tabernacle door, and entry in, is revealed in the Oracles which are the "Instructor/Teacher" of God's doctrine on His gathering of His people unto Himself, in heaven, and in new creation human being garments of priesthood; and gathered unto Him [in those garments typed in Leviticus 8] as adopted sons of God in the New Man name, so as to celebrate their week of consecration to the heavenly priesthood.

Numbers 10:1-7
Leviticus 8
Psalm 50
Psalm 75:2,3 -in Hebrew
Isaiah 26:19-21

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

There is no such thing as a "Pre Trib Bible Study".

 

[Manasseh_]

I guess I never will fully undertand why pretribbers arbitrarily yank scriptures out of context and stamp pretrib on them..........I read all your references and not one verse or chapter lends any support to your pretrib claim

 

[1disciple]

I don't have Pre-trib Bible studies. I don't like trite jargon in the first place. Nor do I have 'devos'. I don't have Post-trib, Mid-trib, or Preterist Bible studies either. I just have bible studies in the various books and with regard to their narrative conventions.

I don't approach scripture to draw out of it a preconceived notion and pet doctrine I'm trying to defend. All such bias and prejudice has no place among Bible students and disciples of Christ.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

No rants, please.
No attacking the messenger, please.
Attacking the messenger only shows your absence of Bible knowledge and understanding and your absolute refusal "to study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed".

The doctrine of the gathering together of the dead in Christ and the living in Christ saints in their regenerated bodies made for the glory is revealed by the Holy Spirit for those who study the living oracles for truth, which teach us the truths of God's one plan.

The gathering together unto Christ in heaven, before His heavenly tabernacle door, and entry in, is revealed in the Oracles which are the "Instructor/Teacher" of God's doctrine on His gathering of His people unto Himself, in heaven, and in new creation human being garments of priesthood; and gathered unto Him [in those garments typed in Leviticus 8] as adopted sons of God in the New Man name, so as to celebrate their week of consecration to the heavenly priesthood.

Numbers 10:1-7
Leviticus 8
Psalm 50
Psalm 75:2,3 -in Hebrew
Isaiah 26:19-21

So the Gathering together unto Christ in the heavens is the doctrine of the Living Oracles typed by the earthly priesthood.

The priests and their garments and the Temple and its furnishings and the feasts all teach about the getting back into our "Rest" from which, in Adam, we lost.

The promise of getting back to our Rest -but not in the Adam name- is in Genesis 3:15. To get back in, we must put on new man garments of human being flesh, in the new man name; which name is "Israel".
Adam is the first defiled, irrevocably, temple "not made with hands" and Israel is the name of the second temple of human being flesh "not made with hands" [Haggai 2].

Human beings were created to "plant the heavens", as sons of God, and in that planting they were made to be the Temple not made with hands for the Glory of the Unseen Creator to indwell.
Adam was placed in that heavenly realm of earth, called "Mount Eden/Mount Zion" above, and from there, he lost the son-ship as firstborn when his flesh became irrevocably defiled as a vessel to bear the Glory.
Adam was cast down from that heavenly realm of earth, to the dust from whence he was made, and all his being became vanity and ruin.

To be sons of God, the seed of Adam must be remade, elementally, into a regenerated, new creation, flesh. That was God's plan for our salvation and return to being what He created Adam/mankind to be.
But to be candidates to be regenerated in our vessels -our flesh bodies- we have to have our souls cleansed and the sin of our firstborn father, Adam, put away/covered, so that we can be "clothed" in the "New Man flesh garments" and be priests in His heavenly realm, and "plant the heavens".

Our Salvation was perfected in heaven from before we were created, in that the Son of Man/Christ in heaven, was prepared to come in flesh of that second human being creation, and be our own "brother" =Kinsman/Redeemer", and to ransom our souls, regenerate our flesh and adopt us into "One Living Spirit"; which Spirit is Christ, and which adoption is rebirth, from above.

When He has His number complete of the "living stones" for building up the Temple for His Glory to indwell, then there will be no more multiplying the seed of Adam, for all His "Living Stones" are adopted sons, out of the Adam race.

There has always been only one plan, and He is bringing His one plan to absolute perfection, for "bringing many sons To Glory" in the name of the Firstborn Son of earth and the "God of the whole earth", Who is Christ come in flesh, named "Israel" -as to the name of the race of human beings who will "Bear the Glory" as sons of God and "Plant the heavens" and "be" the second temple made for glory".

Then we who are redeemed will be truly entered into our Rest and work and labor, tending His Garden/Paradise, as sons/living stones of the Living God.


To understand what the "Rest of God" is, which Adam was placed in, in the Garden of God, and which Adam lost when he was cast down and out of "God's Rest", begins with understanding what and where God's Garden is, and why Adam got cast down and out of it to the dust below, so as to work in vanity and ruin and never enter that Rest again, in his own defiled garments =the human being Adam flesh body.

A defiled clay vessel can never be used to bear the Glory again, as Leviticus teaches us, so the need for being broken down [elementally dissolved and remade] is taught in the Law, for His plan to be perfected for living stones -for the living temple -for the Glory to indwell.

The promise is that He will do that, and we are in process of being perfected in not just spirit of adoption, but in the flesh of adoption, because the Atonement which was once, for all [which puts away the remembrance of our defilement before the Glory in the old man name], is finished.

We are all called to come into His New Man name by new birth from above and to await the perfection of our garments into the image of His New Man body, so that we can enter into His heavenly Paradise, and labor for Him as sons of God, as priests of the heavenly class -which is typed by the earthly class.



The Garden of God is God's "Rest" for Adam, in which Garden Adam was created to work for personal reward and benefit, being the father of the human race which was created to be multiplied from the seed created in the loins of the firstborn- as living stones for the building of God's Temple not made with hands, for His Glory to indwell.

Eden is a heavenly realm of earth, and the Garden is Paradise; and there, in Paradise, in the third heaven, Adam was placed to rule and have dominion over the earth, as the firstborn son of God of the human being kind; and Adam was made "male and female" so as to multiply the "godly seed" =sons of God [Malachi 2:15], for the Glory to indwell them as a "living Temple not made with hands".....

The plan began with Adam being taken/laqach [a Hebrew word meaning; "to take, to go get, to fetch, to marry....to remove from one place to another"..., for a specific purpose], from earth below to the Garden/Paradise above, in Eden [Paradise is in the third heaven, and the Tree of Life is in the midst of it]. The plan is completed in the New Man name, and to be taken to Paradise is our goal, reached in Christ, and lost in Adam.

Paradise is earth's extension, a stretched out from earth realm which we cannot see since the veiling of it to our view, unless our eyes are opened/revelation is given: but it is there, and those who are there, see us.
It is also called "Jerusalem above/the Mother of us all", and the City of God -where God dwells.


Gen 2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put/Nata the man/Adam whom he had formed.
Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth [Israel's mouth], and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant/Nata the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou [art] my people.

The rapture is the taking away of us from earth below to Paradise above, which is our "marriage" celebration, which is typed in Leviticus 8: we put on the garments; go in; shut the doors; celebrate our consecration as heavenly priests;
and remain behind the shut temple doors for a full week, celebrating -"fulfilling our week" to use a Bible term for marriage.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

So according to the Oracle of our being called to gather to the temple door of YHWH [in heaven], by the two blasts of the two silver trumpets of heaven [as Numbers 10 teaches] the bodies of the dead in Christ, as the elders, rise from the graves [elements of earth] at first blast of the two trumpets trumping together two trumps, which calls the entire assembly of the Firstborn Son of God to gather before heaven's temple doors in their regenerated bodies of flesh -which bodies are their heavenly perfected garments for glory and for service, as sons of God in His heavenly temple.

And then, at the second successive blast -in the twinkle of an eye, so closely are they trumped together- the living saints are changed in bodies to the elementally dissolved and regenerated New Man garments for priesthood, without dying, and they rise to meet the elders of His assembly in the air/heaven; and together, they stand before His heavenly temple door, as the Oracle of the silver trumpets teaches us in Numbers 10.

Paul, a Jew enlightened by Jesus' of his opening his eyes [revelation is the opening of the eyes to what is written], also tells us the same, in relation to the trumpets typed by Moses used for calling the gathering of the entire assembly of YHWH to His tabernacle door.
Of course, the earthly tabernacle only typed the heavenly one, and the earthly trumpets only called the earthly congregation of Israel to the earthly tabernacle door to hear the instructions of YHWH; delivered to them by the High Priest of Israel who served in the office of Christ, so as to type the office and ministry of Christ who was to come [and is come] as Firstborn of the New Man name -which name is "Israel", as Isaiah 49 and others teach us.

Everything Moses saw he made to type the heavenly truths of God's Person and work for our salvation.
The trumpets call the gathering to YHWH of His congregation.
The entire congregation comes to the tabernacle doors to hear His instructions when the trumpets sound twice together.

The instructions will be given to us when the trumpets sound as written in Psalm 50 and in Isaiah 26.

We are gathered -when the trumpets sound- to His heavenly temple door.
The dead in Christ rise at first trump.
The living and remaining in Christ rise at the last trump of the two.

We gather to Him at His door -Psalm 50.

He tells us what to do -Isaiah 26:19-21.

 

[Bible2]

yeshuasavedme said in post 1:

Pre Trib Bible Study

Note that no scripture teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

yeshuasavedme said in post 1:

The gathering together unto Christ in heaven, before His heavenly tabernacle door, and entry in, is revealed in the Oracles which are the "Instructor/Teacher" of God's doctrine on His gathering of His people unto Himself, in heaven, and in new creation human being garments of priesthood; and gathered unto Him [in those garments typed in Leviticus 8] as adopted sons of God in the New Man name, so as to celebrate their week of consecration to the heavenly priesthood.

Note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven), to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) and will reign on the earth with him for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then, after the thousand years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

*******

yeshuasavedme said in post 5:

The promise of getting back to our Rest -but not in the Adam name- is in Genesis 3:15. To get back in, we must put on new man garments of human being flesh, in the new man name; which name is "Israel".

Regarding "we must put on new man garments of human being flesh", that's right. And it's good to see you emphasizing that. For believers need to be very careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7) and that believers won't forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That's why his tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why he still has the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven, for he will remain our human mediator/high priest forever (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like we're in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only that which is pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39) and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection or changing of saved people into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, believers need to beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to revile the Creator YHWH God as some sort of evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe as a foul prison house for the free spirits of humans, whom Gnosticism says by some mistake fell from a purely-spiritual heaven into the physical universe and became trapped in fleshly bodies. No doubt the coming Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down out of heaven to live with man on a future, new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the new earth, saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16,17). So, with regard to saved people, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Saved people will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

 

[Bible2]

yeshuasavedme said in post 5:

He tells us what to do -Isaiah 26:19-21.

Indeed, God has told us what to do.

And Isaiah 26:20 can start a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in the KJV. And so nothing requires that Isaiah 26:20-21 has to happen after Isaiah 26:19. Instead, Isaiah 26:20-21 can be addressing those believers who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And Isaiah 26:20 can refer to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Also, nothing forbids believers from preparing these chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the seven vials, but also during the preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way for believers to prepare these chambers would be for them to bury old shipping containers, which shipping and trucking companies could have stacked up in their back lots ready to sell cheap to anyone who will take them off their hands.

Once you have a few fifty-foot shipping containers at your wilderness site, you can rent a bulldozer for a few days and dig big trenches in which to bury the shipping containers. The trenches need to be deep enough so that once you have put the shipping containers into them you can pile six feet of dirt on top of the containers. For that much dirt is required to stop radiation from any nuclear fallout from reaching the containers. Also, six feet of dirt will serve as great insulation so that no matter how hot or cold it gets on the surface, the shipping containers will always remain at a pleasant 20 degrees Celsius (68 degrees Fahrenheit) all year. Once you have put the shipping containers in the trenches, you can cut a manhole in the center of the top of each container, and then cut two smaller, six-inch ventilation holes in the top of each end of each container. Then you can attach to the manhole a seven-foot-long vertical pipe with the same diameter as the manhole, and attach to the ventilation holes seven-foot-long vertical pipes with the same diameter as the ventilation holes. Then you can use the bulldozer to carefully bury the containers, without breaking off the vertical pipes.

Then you can place a long, extendable ladder down the manhole pipe of each container. And you can go down into each container and place a small battery-powered fan inside one of its ventilation holes, to be turned on whenever fresh air is needed in the container. Your containers will then be all set to start stocking with food, water, bedding, batteries, and all other needed supplies whenever you want to do that. You will then need to secure the top of each manhole pipe with some sort of thick metal or thick PVC-like, perhaps screw-on, cover that can be locked from both the outside when you are away from the container, and from the inside when you are in the container. To keep any radioactive dust or ash from entering very far into the ventilation pipes, you can place a cylindrical air filter near the top of each pipe. And to keep rain, insects, and small animals from entering the pipes and affecting the filters, you can place a screen and side-vented cap over the top of each pipe. Another thing to worry about is floodwater pouring into the pipes. So your wilderness site should not be in a floodplain, but on high-enough ground where it will not be flooded.

Because one of the reasons to go underground is to be hidden out of sight of hostile people during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will want to restore the surface of the ground above the buried containers so that it, as much as possible, appears like it did before you began digging. The tops of the manhole and ventilation pipes of each container will need to be camouflaged with brush, so that any hostile people passing by will not notice them. Also, in case some hostile people with dogs happen to pass by while you are hiding inside a container, you will need to place some long-dead (non-smelling) carcass of a small animal near enough to each ventilation pipe so that if the dogs pick up the scent of you and your family and pets emanating from a ventilation pipe, the hostile people with the dogs will think that their dogs are just interested in the carcass of the animal, and will not start rummaging through the brush and discover the ventilation pipe.

Besides camouflaging your underground hideout so that no hostile people will even notice it during the Antichrist's worldwide reign (in the tribulation's second half), before the tribulation even begins and you are still thinking about where in the wilderness to prepare your hideout, you will need to be very circumspect about who you tell about your plans. You will want to tell only those people who are completely committed to joining you in hiding in your containers during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. For if you get any other people involved in knowing before the Antichrist's worldwide reign where your hideout is located, during the Antichrist's worldwide reign those same people could be captured by the Antichrist's police or soldiers and under torture or interrogation drugs tell them the location of your hideout. Or those same people, even if they are not captured, could start to get very hungry during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, and so could decide to go out to your hideout and demand to be fed with your supplies, even though you did not store up enough for them because before the tribulation they had said that they definitely were not going to join you in your hideout.

Another thing to remember is that even before the Antichrist's worldwide reign, even when communicating with those who are completely committed to joining you in your hideout during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you must never refer to the location of your hideout over the internet or over a cell phone or landline phone, or even in your car or home, as all of these could be currently tapped and recorded by intelligence or law enforcement agencies, and their surveillance records could later be searched by the Antichrist's police or soldiers to determine the location of your hideout. For the same reason, you must not have any device with a GPS chip (such as a cell phone, tablet computer, laptop computer, OnStar, LoJack, Garmin, TomTom, etc.) with you when you are out at your hideout, as the GPS chip could be secretly pinged remotely in order to determine your hideout's location. You will also need to have your car, shoes, clothing, and all supplies intended for your hideout electronically swept for any GPS chips covertly placed in them by intelligence or law enforcement agencies.

More generally, during the tribulation, as now, whenever you want to keep your cell phone with you but at the same time want to avoid having your movements tracked through it, place it in a small box, like a cigar box, and wrap the box completely with foil, so that no cell phone signals can reach the cell phone. To make sure there are no tiny gaps or tears in the foil through which signals can enter, once the cell phone is in the foil-wrapped box, call it from another phone and see if it rings. If it does, hang up, wrap the box with a second layer of foil and call again. If the cell phone does not ring, that means no signals can reach it, and so your movements cannot be tracked through it.

And when you make your final trip out to your hideout, when you will begin hiding there during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will need to abandon your car miles away from your hideout and walk the rest of the way, as otherwise your car could catch the attention of any passing hostile people or patrolling drone aircraft. And even if you abandon your car miles away from you hideout, you will still want to camouflage it with brush to avoid it being seen and starting a general search of the area. Or, if there is not enough brush with which to camouflage it, you can let the air out of one of its tires which is visible from the road, so that people passing on the road will think that your car was left there only because it got a flat tire.

Some people think that everyone in the cities will try to go out into the wilderness during the tribulation. But that may not be the case, for almost all people in the cities do not have hunting/fishing and other wilderness survival skills, and will not know of any well-stocked hideouts in the wilderness, and so they will not think that there is any food out there, or that they will be able to construct any decent shelter out there. They will think of the wilderness as being only barren ground and brush, rocks, trees, and mountains, and so they will stay in the cities where they have some chance of finding food. And if the cities come under martial law, they could become the safest places to be, as the military could bring order to them and supply them with emergency food and water. And the cities have plenty of shelter.

But martial law will cut both ways in that once the Antichrist takes over everything (Revelation 13:7-18), the cities could become, in effect, huge military prisons, where people will have to receive the Antichrist's mark on their right hand or forehead if they want to be able to buy any food (Revelation 13:16-17). And everyone will have to worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 12:9) and a speaking image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) if they do not want to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4). Believers must be willing to be beheaded, for if they go ahead and take the mark and worship Lucifer, and the Antichrist, and his image, they will ultimately lose their salvation and suffer eternally in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-14).

Believers should not assume that they will necessarily be able to stand up well under the hunger (and possibly torture) and beheading which will be imposed on believers trapped within the cities during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. Many believers could eventually give in and take the mark when their hunger and the hunger of their crying little ones reaches a certain point (Isaiah 8:21-22). And they could give in and worship Lucifer, and the Antichrist, and his image, when they are confronted with they and their little ones being tortured and beheaded if they do not do these things. It will be much, much better for believers to avoid these horrors by fleeing into prepared places in the wilderness right before the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign of terror begins (Revelation 12:6, Matthew 24:15-16).

 

[Echolipse]

There is no such thing as a "Pre Trib Bible Study".

I beg to differ. The study I'm currently involved in is a personal one. I'm studying all end-time scriptures and also taking in other people's opinions of all the theories to come up with my own theory and belief of what and when the events will occur. So in the end, I am technically study Pre-trib, along with many others.

Whether you claim this is or is not a "Pre Trib Bible Study" or not, sobeit. Nonetheless, there is such thing.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Indeed, God has told us what to do.
....

Your reply is not dealing with the Bible study in that the context of the call by the two trumpets typed by Moses in Numbers 10, and where we are called to gather by the gathering trumpets
sounding twice together in rapid succession,
is the oracle that teaches us
the doctrine of the call for the elders [the dead in Christ]
and the remaining alive saints of the LORD,
being gathered together unto Christ
before the heavenly tabernacle doors;
which is where the earthly types the gathering unto YHWH in the Person of Christ, to be,
of the entire congregation/assembly of God.

The Oracle of the two trumpets for sounding the call for the entire congregation/assembly of YHWH to gather together before the heavenly tabernacle doors by two silver trumpets sounding together twice, in rapid succession [as fast as the blink of an eye, as Paul states] is the beginning doctrine for the call to gather together unto Christ, and where the gathered ones meet Christ at =outside the doors, in heaven.

He stands there before the heavenly temple doors as the High Priest of us, who comes out of heaven's temple =out of His place/dwelling-and who orders the trumpets for the gathering together of His saints unto Himself to be sounded, and He meets the gathered ones at His tabernacle doors =in heaven= and instructs them with these words:
Isaiah 26:20 "Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast."

Context:

Isaiah 26:19-21
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Now His call for us to be gathered from heaven above [the dead in Christ], and earth below is in Psalm 50
50 The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

So He, as our High Priest, comes out of His heavenly Place/Dwelling and calls for our being gathered together unto Him in our raptured, New Man flesh bodies, and to appear before Him who is standing before His tabernacle doors, in heaven.
He tells us to "come in, shut the doors behind us and hide ourselves for a little while......."

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The time of Jacob's trouble/tribulation/sorrow comes upon Israel only after the congregation/assembly of YHWH enters into the tabernacle in heaven and hides there, behind shut doors, celebrating their consecration to the heavenly priesthood as fully garmented -in holy garments of heavenly priesthood for the heavenly temple- adopted sons of the Firstborn of earth =Christ come in flesh as the New Man [Whose New name is "Israel": He is not in Adam flesh].

Leviticus 8 types the celebration which is to last for one full week [of years] of the newly consecrated sons of the Firstborn of earth:
don the garments
go into the holies of heaven's tabernacle
shut the doors
and celebrate the consecration to the priesthood
which consecration is celebrated for one full week =like a biblical wedding, we "fulfill our week" with Him there.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

In Psalm 50, after the holy ones are gathered together unto Christ and go into the heavenly tabernacle to celebrate their priesthood for the week of consecration, YHWH -in the Person of God the Word- speaks to Israel: Psalm 50: 15
"And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me"


in context: Psalm 50, to Israel after the saints are raptured to heaven's tabernacle to serve as priests from heaven over earth, fully garmented perfected in Spirit of regeneration and body of regeneration, so as to celebrate their consecration for the week:

"7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I am God, even thy God.
8 I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me.
9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds.
10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?
14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
15 And call upon me in the day of trouble/tribulation sorrow: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me."



Now in Jeremiah 30, YHWH speaks of that day of Israel's sorrow/tribulation which can only come after the gathering together from off the earth and into heaven's tabernacle of His Holy Ones -harvest of sons of God adopted from Adam into Christ's New Name which is also the time that the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in" in Paul's terms; which is the ingathering of the sons of God into the barn/heaven, from whence the Holy Seed [Christ] is come from: Haggai chapter 2].


Jeremiah 30:
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
2 Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
3 For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble/tribulation/sorrow, but he shall be saved out of it.
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
12 For thus saith the Lord, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the Lord; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
18 Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the Lord.
22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the Lord goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the Lord shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

There is no such thing as a "Pre Trib Bible Study".

I beg to differ. The study I'm currently involved in is a personal one. I'm studying all end-time scriptures and also taking in other people's opinions of all the theories to come up with my own theory and belief of what and when the events will occur. So in the end, I am technically study Pre-trib, along with many others.

Whether you claim this is or is not a "Pre Trib Bible Study" or not, sobeit. Nonetheless, there is such thing.

No, Pre Trib is not scriptural so it's impossible to have a Pre Trib Bible Study.

 

[Interplanner]

Was the rumor in the Thess. situation pre-trib?

 

[Biblewriter]

Jesus said;

“I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” (John 14:2-3)

Enoch said;

“Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” (Jude 14-15)

In the first passage above the Lord says “I will come again and receive you to Myself.” In the second one, “the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all.” It is obvious that His coming and receiving us to Himself has to take place before His coming with us. The words used by the Holy Spirit do not allow any other conclusion. But how long before “the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints” will He “come... and receive” us to Himself? Some imagine that these two events happen at essentially the same time, pointing out that, without even one exception in the entire Bible, every reference to out Lord’s return is in the singular. But the scriptures do not allow this conclusion.

To understand why this is true, we need to remember that the Old Testament prophets noticed an apparent contradiction between various prophecies about the coming Messiah. For we read that “the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.” (1 Peter 1:10-11) Some of the prophecies presented the coming Messiah as a suffering servant, while others presented him as glorious conqueror. They did not understand this, even though they were the ones through whom the Holy Spirit gave these prophecies.

No Old Testament scripture gave a resolution to this apparent contradiction. Now that we have the New Testament, we know that the Messiah was coming more than just one time. The prophecies that presented the Messiah as a suffering servant referred to his coming to die on the cross for our sins. And the prophecies that presented him as a mighty conqueror referred to his coming to deliver Israel and to judge the world for its sins. The New Testament reveals that these two comings occur at different times. One took place long ago, and the other is still future.

There are similar apparent contradictions between various scriptures about our Lord’s return. The precedent from the Old Testament shows us the resolution to this additional series of apparent contradictions. That resolution is that the Holy Spirit was doing exactly the same thing He did in the Old Testament. That is, in these apparent contradictions He was showing us that our Lord is coming back more than just one more time, even though he never explicitly said that. He is coming once for all that have already trusted him, and again to deliver Israel and to judge the world. A full understanding of this completely eliminates all of these apparent contradictions.

In considering this, we will start by examining one of the most significant of these apparent contradictions. In the parable of the ten virgins, we read that “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” (Matthew 25:10-12) here we plainly see that “those who were ready” will be taken into the Lord’s presence while “the other virgins” will be left outside a door that remains closed in spite of their pleading. But that is not all we see here. The word “afterward” in this parable indicates a delay between the time when “they that were ready went in with him” and the time when “the other virgins came also.” This is significant because it indicates that the “other virgins” were not destroyed at the time when “they that were ready went in with him.” They were still able to come, begging for admission. But their pleas were rejected.

But in the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30) we read that at the time of harvest the owner of the field will say, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” (Matthew 13:30)The word “first” in this command clearly indicates that the wicked are destroyed before the righteous are gathered. Now this order of events is exactly the opposite of the order indicated in Matthew 25. (And yes, the words “afterward” and “first” are in the Greek texts of these two parables.) The contradiction between the order of events in these two parables clearly indicates that they are speaking of two different events that take place at different times.

In the explanation of the parable of the wheat and the tares, Jesus said it meant that “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. ” (Matthew 13:41-43) He then added that “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:47-50)

This is again radically different from the scene presented in Matthew 25. In Matthew 13, the “wicked” are separated “from among the just.” In Matthew 25, the righteous, “those who were ready” were taken from among those who were wicked, “the other virgins.” In Matthew 13, the wicked are removed and cast into the fire. In Matthew 25, the wicked are left where they are, but are given no further chance to repent.

This fact that they are given no further chance to repent is stressed in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, where we read that “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” The reason for this is distinctly stated. God will do this as a punishment “because they did not receive the love of the truth,” that is, because they did not wish to know the truth. This awful punishment is because, instead of receiving the truth, they “had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Nor is this only stated in the New Testament. We see it again in the last chapter of Isaiah, where we read, “Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight.” (Isaiah 66:3-4)

So the scriptures clearly teach that there is a time coming in which those who had previously rejected the gospel will have no more chance to repent. This is in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:10 that “the door was shut” after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” It is also in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:11-12 that “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” This parable clearly shows that there will be those that seek a relationship with the bridegroom after He has come. But it will then be too late, for “the door was shut.” 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 clearly states that at that time, those that had previously rejected God’s word will be turned over to believe “the lie.” And Isaiah 66:3-4 just as clearly states that at that time God “will choose their delusions.” The time being spoken of here is plainly the time of the Antichrist, the first part of the time we loosely call “the tribulation.” But it takes place after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.”

We see this again in a passage about the coming of “the man of sin.” The Holy Spirit said “And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) We need to take special notice this restrainer. The Holy Spirit said “you know what is restraining.” He did not say “you should know,” or “you ought to know.” He said “you know.” This makes it plain that the restrainer He was speaking of was Himself. No other power could restrain evil in this way, and yet be so obvious it did not need to be named.

But again, it says that “He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.” How can this be the Holy Spirit, when Jesus said, “I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17) One scripture tells us “the Spirit of truth”is given “that He may abide with you forever.” The other says that “He” will be “taken out of the way.” How can one who will “abide with you forever” be “taken out of the way?”

We read in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 that “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” The Holy Spirit, “the Spirit of truth,”is truly given “that He may abide with you forever.” But Jesus, “the Lord Himself,” will also “descend from heaven” and catch us up “to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

This event, which is commonly called the rapture, has to be the time when the Holy Spirit is “taken out of the way.” This is because the Holy Spirit and the saints of God will be together forever, yet they will both be removed from this earth. It is therefore plain that they will be removed at the same time. But it is only after this happens that “the lawless one will be revealed.” For we remember that “the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) Many think scripture does not clearly teach a pre-tribulation rapture, but that is not correct. This scripture shows us that the Holy Spirit will be “taken out of the way” before the Antichrist, “the lawless one,” will be revealed.

 

[Biblewriter]

While a single scripture is enough to prove a point, this is not the only way the scriptures teach the pre-tribulation rapture. In Revelation 1:11, the apostle John was told, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.” Then, in chapters 2 and 3, individual messages are given for each of the seven churches. In Revelation 3:10 the overcomers in Philadelphia are promised, “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” The Greek word translated from in this passage is ek, (word number 1537 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary.) Its normal meaning is from in the sense of away from or out of.

But what is it that these faithful saints are promised to be kept away from or out of? It is “the hour of trial.” The Greek word translated hour in this passage is hora. (word number 5610 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means hour, but is often used figuratively for a period of time. But what hour are they promised to be kept away from or out of? It is not just some general period of time. It is a specific one. It is “the hour of trial.” But even this “hour of trial” is not just some general “hour of trial.” It is specifically referred to as “the hour.” Yes, the word “the” is in the Greek, as the word tou. (word number 3588 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) But what “hour of trial” are they promised to be kept away from or out of? It is “the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”

There is an “hour of trial” coming “to test those who dwell on the earth.” When we see the reason this hour is coming we understand the term “hour of trial.” For the Greek word translated trial here does not mean, or even imply, trouble. It is not described as “the hour of trouble,” but as “the hour of testing.” For testing is the literal meaning of the Greek word translated trial in this verse. That Greek word is peirasmos. (word number 3986 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) So we see that this scripture explicitly tells us that there is a particular time of testing coming, and that the purpose of that time is “to test those who dwell on the earth.”

But this passage tells us more than just that this coming time is a specific time of testing. It also tells us where this time of testing will come. It “shall come upon the whole world.” Again, we need to notice that the Greek word translated whole in this clause is holos. (word number 3650 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means whole, or all, that is, complete. That is, there is no part of the world that will be exempted from this time of testing.

So we see that there is a specific time of testing coming, and it is coming upon the whole world. But the faithful are promised that they will be kept away from or out of this time of testing. Now if this time is coming upon the whole world, but the faithful will be kept away from or out of it, they cannot be in the world during that time of testing.

Now some want to pretend that the Greek word ek only means out of in the sense of first being in it, and then being brought out of it. But this Greek word simply does not mean, or even imply, being safely brought through this time. Ek most definitely does not mean through. It means away from or out of.

In this line we need to remember a parallel passage in which the Holy Spirit said, “then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.” (2 Peter 2:9) The Greek words translated out of and temptations in this verse are the same ek and peirasmos used by the Holy Spirit to describe the keeping of the faithful out of or away from the hour of testing in Revelation 3:10. So we see that these two scriptures refer to the same future act of God.

But there is much more in 2 Peter 2. Verse 9, which we just noticed, is based on what the Holy Spirit had just said. And what had He just said? “For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)—” (2 Peter 2:4-8)

Thus we see that the words “then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment” refer to the two examples just given. And what were those two examples? Noah and Lot, both of whom were physically removed from the scene of judgment before it took place. Then, in the context of these two examples, the Holy Spirit said, “then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.” So we see that the Holy Spirit is indicating that when He will “deliver the godly out of temptations,” He will do it by removing them from the scene ahead of time, as He did for Noah and Lot.

Returning now to the promise in Revelation 3:10, “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” We notice that the significance of this promise is made even more plain by its contrast with a warning given to sinners in Thyatira. “I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.” (Revelation 2:22) In these parallel passages certain sinners are warned that they will be cast “into great tribulation” and certain saints are promised to be “kept from the hour of trial.” Each of these statements is significant in itself, but their contrast is much more significant. Sinners will be cast “into great tribulation,” and saints will be kept out of “the hour of trial.”

 

[Biblewriter]

But there are other scriptures that seem to say exactly the opposite of this. One of these is:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matthew 24:29-31)

How can this be? One scripture explicitly says that the faithful will be out of or away from the time of testing, and another explicitly says the Lord will return after the tribulation. But we have already seen that there is a clear scriptural precedent to explain this. Contradictory passages do not refer to the same event, even though the events they refer to may be similar.

In considering this passage, we need to remember that the coming of the Lord for those who have already trusted him is described in the following words: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

Although 1 Thessalonians 4:16 plainly says that it is “the Lord Himself” who will come for us, the passage we are now considering, Matthew 24:31, just as plainly says that “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” In one case, “we” are “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and in the other “His elect” are gathered by “His angels.”

To understand the significance of this contrast we need to look at Exodus 33, where we read in verses 1-4 that “the LORD said to Moses, ‘Depart and go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, “To your descendants I will give it.” And I will send My Angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, lest I consume you on the way, for you are a stiff-necked people.’ And when the people heard this bad news, they mourned, and no one put on his ornaments.” But in verses 12-17 we read, “Then Moses said to the LORD, ‘See, You say to me, “Bring up this people.” But You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said, “I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.” Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is Your people.” And He said, ‘My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.’ Then he said to Him, ‘If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here. For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth.’ So the LORD said to Moses, ‘I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.’”

We see that this passage of scripture plainly teaches that there is a significant difference between the presence of the Lord Himself and that of only a mere angel. But one scripture about our Lord’s return plainly teaches that “we” will be “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and another says “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.” So we see that “we” are given a place of significantly greater favor that the group the Lord Jesus called “His elect.” This, in and by itself, shows that these scriptures cannot be speaking of the same event.

Many are convinced that the term “his elect” has to mean the church. And if this scripture were considered in the absence of other scriptures, that conclusion might seem appropriate. But we are warned that “no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Peter 1:20-21) We have to consider every scripture in the light of all the rest of scripture. We have already noticed a distinct difference between this scripture and the one about the rapture of the church. That is that the church is come for by “the Lord himself,” while this group is only gathered by “his angels.” We have noticed that this shows us that this group is not as favored as the church. But if that is the case, how can they be called “his elect”?

 

[Biblewriter]

There is a group in scripture which is unquestionably not the church, but which the Lord explicitly calls “My elect.” That group is the righteous remnant of Israel. We read about this group in Isaiah 65, where the Lord says, “Thus says the Lord: ‘As the new wine is found in the cluster, And one says, “Do not destroy it, For a blessing is in it,” So will I do for My servants’ sake, That I may not destroy them all. I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there.’” (Isaiah 65:8-9) Here we notice that the subject of this prophecy is “descendants from Jacob, And from Judah,” and also that this group of “descendants from Jacob, And from Judah,” is explicitly called “My elect.” Then, a few verses later, we read:

“I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.” (Isaiah 65:19-22)

Here we read about a condition that unquestionably does not exist at the present time. For at the present time there are infants that “live but a few days.” And there no one who is “one hundred years old” is still considered a “child.” So this is unquestionably speaking of a future time, when things will be very different than they are now.

We noticed that the first of these sections explicitly says it is speaking of “descendants from Jacob, And from Judah.” Although the church is sometimes typically called Israel, no scripture anywhere ever calls the church either Jacob or Judah. So this group is clearly not the church. But even though they are not the church, these “descendants from Jacob, And from Judah” are twice called “My elect.” So the fact that after the tribulation the Lord “shall send his angels... and they shall gather together his elect” simply does not prove that the church will be raptured after the tribulation. For we read of a different group of God’s “elect” that will be gathered when the Lord returns to deliver Israel and to judge the world.

We also need to notice that this passage in Isaiah does not just speak of Jacob and Judah, but explicitly of “descendants from Jacob, And from Judah.” This is just one of the many scriptures that explicitly say that when Messiah comes, He will deliver the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel. We find that in numerous other prophecies, such as Ezekiel 36, where the “mountains of Israel,” with “the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken,” (verse 4) are told that “you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come. For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.” (verses 8-10) The repeating of the word all, (kol in the Hebrew,) stresses that the meaning is absolutely all of “the house of Israel.”

This subject is carried so far in the prophecies that in Ezekiel 47:13-20 we are even given a precise definition of the borders of the land when the Lord has restored it. Then the next chapter, Ezekiel 48, goes on with specific instructions as to what portion of this land is to belong to each of the twelve tribes, with details of a portion reserved for the temple, for the priests and Levites, and for “the prince.”

We need to realize that the reason the rapture will take place before the tribulation is not just to keep the Church out of the times of the Antichrist. It has another reason. God will remove the church from the world before he begins to again work with Israel directly. The Old Testament prophecies are filled with details of the work God will do to bring them to repentance. We find many of these details, for instance, in Daniel 7, 8, 9,and 11, and in Isaiah 7, 10, 14, 30, and 31. That is not nearly all of the places where this period is discussed, but details of that time are explicitly stated in all these chapters.

And this is the time Jesus was discussing when He said, “Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.” (Matthew 24:15-21) We know he was speaking of this time because He specifically referred to the prophecies of Daniel. And we know He was addressing the Jews of that day, and not Christians, for He explicitly said “let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” So the statements He made at that time are about when He will come to deliver Israel and to judge the world for its sins, not the time when He will come for those that have already trusted him.

 

[Biblewriter]

There is a group in scripture which is unquestionably not the church, but which the Lord explicitly calls “My elect.” That group is the righteous remnant of Israel. We read about this group in Isaiah 65, where the Lord says, “Thus says the Lord: ‘As the new wine is found in the cluster, And one says, “Do not destroy it, For a blessing is in it,” So will I do for My servants’ sake, That I may not destroy them all. I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there.’” (Isaiah 65:8-9) Here we notice that the subject of this prophecy is “descendants from Jacob, And from Judah,” and also that this group of “descendants from Jacob, And from Judah,” is explicitly called “My elect.” Then, a few verses later, we read:

“I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.” (Isaiah 65:19-22)

Here we read about a condition that unquestionably does not exist at the present time. For at the present time there are infants that “live but a few days.” And there no one who is “one hundred years old” is still considered a “child.” So this is unquestionably speaking of a future time, when things will be very different than they are now.

We noticed that the first of these sections explicitly says it is speaking of “descendants from Jacob, And from Judah.” Although the church is sometimes typically called Israel, no scripture anywhere ever calls the church either Jacob or Judah. So this group is clearly not the church. But even though they are not the church, these “descendants from Jacob, And from Judah” are twice called “My elect.” So the fact that after the tribulation the Lord “shall send his angels... and they shall gather together his elect” simply does not prove that the church will be raptured after the tribulation. For we read of a different group of God’s “elect” that will be gathered when the Lord returns to deliver Israel and to judge the world.

We also need to notice that this passage in Isaiah does not just speak of Jacob and Judah, but explicitly of “descendants from Jacob, And from Judah.” This is just one of the many scriptures that explicitly say that when Messiah comes, He will deliver the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel. We find that in numerous other prophecies, such as Ezekiel 36, where the “mountains of Israel,” with “the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken,” (verse 4) are told that “you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come. For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.” (verses 8-10) The repeating of the word all, (kol in the Hebrew,) stresses that the meaning is absolutely all of “the house of Israel.”

This subject is carried so far in the prophecies that in Ezekiel 47:13-20 we are even given a precise definition of the borders of the land when the Lord has restored it. Then the next chapter, Ezekiel 48, goes on with specific instructions as to what portion of this land is to belong to each of the twelve tribes, with details of a portion reserved for the temple, for the priests and Levites, and for “the prince.”

We need to realize that the reason the rapture will take place before the tribulation is not just to keep the Church out of the times of the Antichrist. It has another reason. God will remove the church from the world before he begins to again work with Israel directly. The Old Testament prophecies are filled with details of the work God will do to bring them to repentance. We find many of these details, for instance, in Daniel 7, 8, 9,and 11, and in Isaiah 7, 10, 14, 30, and 31. That is not nearly all of the places where this period is discussed, but details of that time are explicitly stated in all these chapters.

And this is the time Jesus was discussing when He said, “Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.” (Matthew 24:15-21) We know he was speaking of this time because He specifically referred to the prophecies of Daniel. And we know He was addressing the Jews of that day, and not Christians, for He explicitly said “let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” So the statements He made at that time are about when He will come to deliver Israel and to judge the world for its sins, not the time when He will come for those that have already trusted him.There is a group in scripture which is unquestionably not the church, but which the Lord explicitly calls “My elect.” That group is the righteous remnant of Israel. We read about this group in Isaiah 65, where the Lord says, “Thus says the Lord: ‘As the new wine is found in the cluster, And one says, “Do not destroy it, For a blessing is in it,” So will I do for My servants’ sake, That I may not destroy them all. I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there.’” (Isaiah 65:8-9) Here we notice that the subject of this prophecy is “descendants from Jacob, And from Judah,” and also that this group of “descendants from Jacob, And from Judah,” is explicitly called “My elect.” Then, a few verses later, we read:

“I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.” (Isaiah 65:19-22)

Here we read about a condition that unquestionably does not exist at the present time. For at the present time there are infants that “live but a few days.” And there no one who is “one hundred years old” is still considered a “child.” So this is unquestionably speaking of a future time, when things will be very different than they are now.

We noticed that the first of these sections explicitly says it is speaking of “descendants from Jacob, And from Judah.” Although the church is sometimes typically called Israel, no scripture anywhere ever calls the church either Jacob or Judah. So this group is clearly not the church. But even though they are not the church, these “descendants from Jacob, And from Judah” are twice called “My elect.” So the fact that after the tribulation the Lord “shall send his angels... and they shall gather together his elect” simply does not prove that the church will be raptured after the tribulation. For we read of a different group of God’s “elect” that will be gathered when the Lord returns to deliver Israel and to judge the world.

We also need to notice that this passage in Isaiah does not just speak of Jacob and Judah, but explicitly of “descendants from Jacob, And from Judah.” This is just one of the many scriptures that explicitly say that when Messiah comes, He will deliver the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel. We find that in numerous other prophecies, such as Ezekiel 36, where the “mountains of Israel,” with “the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken,” (verse 4) are told that “you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come. For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.” (verses 8-10) The repeating of the word all, (kol in the Hebrew,) stresses that the meaning is absolutely all of “the house of Israel.”

This subject is carried so far in the prophecies that in Ezekiel 47:13-20 we are even given a precise definition of the borders of the land when the Lord has restored it. Then the next chapter, Ezekiel 48, goes on with specific instructions as to what portion of this land is to belong to each of the twelve tribes, with details of a portion reserved for the temple, for the priests and Levites, and for “the prince.”

 

[Biblewriter]

We need to realize that the reason the rapture will take place before the tribulation is not just to keep the Church out of the times of the Antichrist. It has another reason. God will remove the church from the world before he begins to again work with Israel directly. The Old Testament prophecies are filled with details of the work God will do to bring them to repentance. We find many of these details, for instance, in Daniel 7, 8, 9,and 11, and in Isaiah 7, 10, 14, 30, and 31. That is not nearly all of the places where this period is discussed, but details of that time are explicitly stated in all these chapters.

And this is the time Jesus was discussing when He said, “Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.” (Matthew 24:15-21) We know he was speaking of this time because He specifically referred to the prophecies of Daniel. And we know He was addressing the Jews of that day, and not Christians, for He explicitly said “let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” So the statements He made at that time are about when He will come to deliver Israel and to judge the world for its sins, not the time when He will come for those that have already trusted him. their sins will take time. As before, perhaps not very much more time, but regardless of that, it will take time. But it is only after this repentance is complete that they will be in the spiritual state described in Psalm 149:5-9, “Let the saints be joyful in glory; Let them sing aloud on their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, And a two-edged sword in their hand, To execute vengeance on the nations, And punishments on the peoples; To bind their kings with chains, And their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute on them the written judgment; This honor have all His saints. Praise the LORD!”

So we can clearly see that the time when God sends them out to take vengeance on His enemies will be after several events have taken place, each of which will take time, and each of which will be after the Lord has come in power and glory. But now we read in Zechariah 9:13-16. “For I have bent Judah, My bow, Fitted the bow with Ephraim, And raised up your sons, O Zion, Against your sons, O Greece, And made you like the sword of a mighty man.’ Then the Lord will be seen over them, And His arrow will go forth like lightning. The Lord GOD will blow the trumpet, And go with whirlwinds from the south. The Lord of hosts will defend them; They shall devour and subdue with slingstones. They shall drink and roar as if with wine; They shall be filled with blood like basins, Like the corners of the altar. The Lord their God will save them in that day, As the flock of His people. For they shall be like the jewels of a crown, Lifted like a banner over His land—” Here we are explicitly told that “The Lord GOD will blow the trumpet.” That is, we are not only told that a trumpet will be blown at this time, but that it will be “The Lord GOD” who blows it.

So we have now seen two times when trumpets will be blown after the Lord has come in power and glory. And one of them will be blown by the Lord himself. So the term “the last trumpet” in 1 Corinthians 15:52 cannot mean the last trumpet that will ever be blown.

So what, then does it mean? It clearly means the last trumpet to be blown at that time, but what does that refer to? One possible explanation, (and it is necessary to stress that this is only a possible explanation) is that it could be a reference to a well known practice of the time when this was written. We are told that when it was time for Roman armies to move, the order was given through a series of trumpet blasts. The first blast was the signal to prepare to leave. The second one was the signal to form up the marching lines. And the third blast (the last trumpet) was the signal to start marching. We cannot say with assurance that this is what this scripture was referring to, but this is a possible explanation. All we know of a certainty, is that it does not mean the last trumpet that will ever be blown. So the fact that 1 Corinthians 15:32 says the rapture will be “at the last trumpet” does not prove that the rapture will be after the tribulation.

Again, we have noticed that some imagine that the Lord’s coming for those that have already trusted in him and his coming to judge the world will take place at essentially the same time. Many claim that a true understanding of the scriptures shows that the Lord simply gathers his own on the way down as He comes to judge the world. (They simply leave out the scriptures about the Lord coming to deliver Israel.) We have already shown how this conclusion is contrary to other scriptures, but we need to discuss the basis of this notion, and why it is erroneous.

In 1930, a German by the name of Erik Peterson published a paper in which he allegedly proved a technical meaning for the Greek word translated meet in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, where we read, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” He claimed that the Greek word translated meet in this passage, which is apanthesis, (word number 589 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) implied formal meetings, in which the citizens of a city went out to meet a visiting dignitary and escorted him in honor back into their city. He cited a number of ancient passages in which some form of apanthesis was used to describe such a formal reception. Thus, he imagined he had proved that this scripture indicated that we would rise to meet Jesus as he came in power and glory, and then immediately return to earth with him. So he imagined that he had proved that the rapture will take place after the tribulation. Many loved this idea, so it quickly became standard teaching in many theological schools.

But of course, many others completely rejected this idea, and it became a subject of debate. So in 1994 Michael R. Cosby, of Sioux Falls College, decided to prove once and for all that Peterson was right. But Cosby was not only a skilled researcher, he was also an honest man. And when his studies proved the very opposite of what he wanted to prove, he published them anyway.

Cosby found that various forms of the Greek word apanthesis were used in ancient texts for a great many different types of meetings. As an example, he found that the work “Bibliotheca Historica,” by Diodorus Siculus, often used this word, but mostly to describe soldiers meeting in battle. He then noted that this was also true of the historical books written by Polybius. So Cosby made an extensive computer search in a database called the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae. (TLG) He reported that his search yielded 91 pages of citations. But only “a minority of” these cases described formal receptions. Then he gave the following examples:

Philo Judaeus used some form of apanthesis 27 times, but not even once to describe meeting a dignitary. Josephus used various forms of this word 92 times, but only ten times to describe formal receptions. Cosby then commented that various forms of apanthesis were used “frequently” in the Septuagint, often to describe “hostile meeting of armies.” But there it was used to describe “virtually any kind of meeting.”

So we see that the argument about the alleged technical meaning of the Greek word apanthesis is simply not correct. It simply means meet in its ordinary sense, just as we use the word today. So this argument is wholly without merit.

Cosby’s report can be read in its entirety at:
http://www.ibr-bbr.org/files/bbr/BBR_1994_02_Cosby-Apantesis1Thes.pdf

Finally, those who deny the pre-tribulation rapture think we should be watching for the coming of the Antichrist. The scriptures indeed tell us that the Antichrist is coming. But that is not what they teach us to be looking for. Instead, they repeatedly say things like: “denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.” (Titus 2:12-14) “you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10) And “you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 1:7-8)

So we are not told to be watching for the Antichrist, but to be watching for the coming of our Lord, as we read in Luke 12:35-40 “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them. And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

Jesus then went on to say, “But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.” (Luke 12:45-46) Will we choose to be among those that are watching for our master, or among the evil servants that say in their hearts, “my master is delaying his coming”?