Replacement Theology?

[motherprayer]

That is replacement theology aka the church now replaced or became Israel. Scripture is a bit more involved than that.

Can you explain it to me? I'm a learner, and so I haven't got all my theological ducks in a row yet. How is it different? (Please know I'm not arguing, I genuinely want to know)

 

[Rhamiel]

for the record, I am not agianst the nation state of Israel
it is like any other nation state
I think God cares as much for Israel as much as He cares about Canada or China or Lebanon or any other country for that matter

I do not think that the creation of the nation state of Israel has any effect on end-times prophecy

Spiritual Israel is the people who follow God
with the death of Christ, Israel was opened up to the gentiles
we were grafted on

Even in the Old Testement, was opened up to a few other tribes correct? the moabites were taken in as slaves or something but they were then counted as a part of israel latter? or am I confused?

 

[Gnarwhal]

I don't have anything against present-day Israel either, but I also don't think it's the same Israel that was ruled by David and Solomon. The faithful Jews (Israel) were the Apostles and other Jews who recognized their Messiah and followed him, birthing the Church.

The problem with refusing to identify the Church as Israel is that it places an inordinate about significance on the present country that calls itself "Israel" and as a result that country is supported at the expense of others around it.

And before anybody jumps on the antisemitic wagon or whatever, we should wish for peace amongst all of those nations whether it be Israel, Palestine, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon or some other nation. We should desire for harmony, and not at the sacrifice of any one nation, nations or peoples.

 

[PaladinValer]

Most evangelicals would not refer to it as a dual covenant in quite that way.

Yet it is. Anyone who holds that God will acknowledge the Old Covenant as salvific without the New is not following Christianity. The Jews are completely outside visible salvation; Judaism is a false religion that cannot save.

The new covenant is expressly the covenant of grace through faith. However the Apostle Paul said that God had blinded the eyes of the Jews for our sake for a season. God is still faithful to fulfill the words of scripture concerning Israel until the appointed time. That is scripture.

That doesn't make Judaism at all salvific.

I believe that the American evangelical church spends some considerable money in regards to evangelism of the Jews. So much so that Jewish rabbis have set up counter missionary organizations.

And what results is considered heresy among both orthodox Christians and Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Jews.

 

[PaladinValer]

I don't have anything against present-day Israel either, but I also don't think it's the same Israel that was ruled by David and Solomon. The faithful Jews (Israel) were the Apostles and other Jews who recognized their Messiah and followed him, birthing the Church.

The problem with refusing to identify the Church as Israel is that it places an inordinate about significance on the present country that calls itself "Israel" and as a result that country is supported at the expense of others around it.

And before anybody jumps on the antisemitic wagon or whatever, we should wish for peace amongst all of those nations whether it be Israel, Palestine, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon or some other nation. We should desire for harmony, and not at the sacrifice of any one nation, nations or peoples.

You speak for me as well.

 

[Habakk]

Yet it is. Anyone who holds that God will acknowledge the Old Covenant as salvific without the New is not following Christianity. The Jews are completely outside visible salvation; Judaism is a false religion that cannot save.

That doesn't make Judaism at all salvific.

And what results is considered heresy among both orthodox Christians and Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Jews.

Fine but that is your opinion and your interpretation and you are welcome to it. It does not mean that you can insist on telling evengelicals what they believe, why and how.

Holy scripture is sufficient we are not talking about modern day rabbinical faith we are talking about what God said in his word. I don’t ever recall saying that modern day rabbinical teaching, talmud, targums and sages have any jurisdiction.

Incidentally evangelicals are orthodox; at least by the rules of CF they are, let’s not get into the silly arguments of who is mainstream Christianity.

 

[Habakk]

I don't have anything against present-day Israel either, but I also don't think it's the same Israel that was ruled by David and Solomon. The faithful Jews (Israel) were the Apostles and other Jews who recognized their Messiah and followed him, birthing the Church.

The problem with refusing to identify the Church as Israel is that it places an inordinate about significance on the present country that calls itself "Israel" and as a result that country is supported at the expense of others around it.

And before anybody jumps on the antisemitic wagon or whatever, we should wish for peace amongst all of those nations whether it be Israel, Palestine, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon or some other nation. We should desire for harmony, and not at the sacrifice of any one nation, nations or peoples.

I agree with a lot of what you said, not all. Evengelicals do not equate modern day Israel with the Israel ruled by David either. However there are biblical promises concerning the Land and God's people, that are not applicable as spiritulisations to the church.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I agree with a lot of what you said, not all. Evengelicals do not equate modern day Israel with the Israel ruled by David either. However there are biblical promises concerning the Land and God's people, that are not applicable as spiritulisations to the church.

Isn't that the entire basis for Zionism, though? The notion that today's Israel is the Israel that came from the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

The whole idea behind Zionism is that the Church is just some sort of arbitrary cosmic pause in God's overall plan and ultimately it's all about Israel. Thus, today's Israel is still the apple of God's eye and the ultimate focus of his Eschatological plan.

Sure, not all Evangelicals buy into that, but many do.

 

[Zeek]

"Replacement theology" is kind of a misnomer. It would only be acceptable if you consider Isaac to have "replaced" Abraham, Jacob to have "replaced" Isaac, Jacob to have been "replaced" with his twelve sons, his twelve sons to have been "replaced" by twelve tribes and those twelve tribes to have been "replaced" by the kingdom of Israel.

If you follow that line of understanding then yes, "replacement theology" fits. The understanding is that through Christ the Church succeeded Israel and inherited her blessings and promises.

Replacement theology does indeed promote the idea that the Church has replaced/displaced/succeeded Israel in the plans of G-d and inherited her blessings and promises...but it always omits the judgments and the curses.

 

[Zeek]

Isn't that the entire basis for Zionism, though? The notion that today's Israel is the Israel that came from the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

The whole idea behind Zionism is that the Church is just some sort of arbitrary cosmic pause in God's overall plan and ultimately it's all about Israel. Thus, today's Israel is still the apple of God's eye and the ultimate focus of his Eschatological plan.

Sure, not all Evangelicals buy into that, but many do.

I don't know where you get your definition of Zionism from, but I have never heard it explained that way...I consider myself an ardent supporter of Israel and by default a Zionist, along with many Jewish friends...it simply means believing that Israel is the historical land of the Jewish people and they have the right to live safely within its borders.

 

[Zeek]

Perhaps.

I think people get riled up (especially if they have an affinity for Israel) because they equate Replacement Theology at some level with antisemitism, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Actually it is the very basis for Christian anti-Semitism.

In the UK it is estimated that over 75% of the Christians believe in some form of replacement theology, whether it encompasses the extreme view that the Jews killed G-d, or the milder idea that the Jews are now irrelevant in the plans of G-d.

Many Christians don't really understand much about it and generally go with the flow, but I have found over here these very Churches are targetted by various pro-Palestinian groups that give talks that condemn Israel, depict Zionism as a modern evil and try to garner support for action against the democratic State of Israel...and unfortunately the British are at times very very gullible.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Actually it is the very basis for Christian anti-Semitism.

In the UK it is estimated that over 75% of the Christians believe in some form of replacement theology, whether it encompasses the extreme view that the Jews killed G-d, or the milder idea that the Jews are now irrelevant in the plans of G-d.

Many Christians don't really understand much about it and generally go with the flow, but I have found over here these very Churches are targetted by various pro-Palestinian groups that give talks that condemn Israel, depict Zionism as a modern evil and try to garner support for action against the democratic State of Israel...and unfortunately the British are at times very very gullible.

According to Wiki....that term is relatively new.

Semites can also include the Abrahamic religion of Islam, who trace their heritage back to Ishmael in the OT.

Therefore, Christian Zionists can also be anti-Semitic simply because of their hatred of Islam and Muslims.....

Antisemitism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Etymology and usage

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews for reasons connected to their Jewish heritage. A person who holds such positions is called an "antisemite".
While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"),[1] and that has been its normal use since then.[2]


Usage

Despite the use of the prefix anti-, the terms Semitic and anti-Semitic are not directly opposed to each other. Antisemitism refers specifically to prejudice against Jews alone and in general,[2][4] despite the fact that there are other speakers of Semitic languages (e.g. Arabs, Ethiopians, or Assyrians) and that not all Jews speak a Semitic language.
Although the term "antisemitism" did not come into common usage until the 19th century, it is also applied to historic anti-Jewish incidences.
The term anti-Semitic has been used on occasion to include bigotry against other Semitic-language peoples such as Arabs, but such usage is not widely accepted.[5][6]

Although Wilhelm Marr is generally credited with coining the word anti-Semitism (see below), Alex Bein writes that the word was first used in 1860 by the Austrian Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "anti-Semitic prejudices".[12] Steinschneider used this phrase to characterize Ernest Renan's ideas about how "Semitic races" were inferior to "Aryan races."



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[Habakk]

Europe has a history of anti-Semitism directly related to the teachings of replacement theology. It has done so much real damage here and caused great suffering. I don’t think that America has experienced or appreciates this level of anti-Semitism.

Evangelicals do not believe that the church is just some arbitrary cosmic pause neither do they believe that modern day rabbinical tradition is equated to the ancient rule of Israel under king David.

In fact the scripture is clear that God will restore the nation of Israel in the last days while the Jews are still in a state of unbelief.

Also not to get political but there have been several quite miraculous events in the establishment of current day Israel. There is no such thing as a true Palestinian if you correctly check the facts. The name Palestine was an insult. The proposed propaganda of the peace plan for the Middle East would ultimately result in the destruction of Israel. Every Jew living there knows that. We are instructed in scripture to pray for the peace of Jerusalem that peace can only come when Jesus the prince of peace establishes it.

 

[Zeek]

Is it any different than this sign at a Pentecost church proclaiming the same thing?


ADL Outraged at Church Sign Blaming Jews for Death of Jesus

The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) expressed outrage over a sign placed in front of a Denver church that stated: "Jews killed the Lord Jesus."

ADL's initial statement on this episode follows:

BruceH.DeBoskey, ADL Mountain States Regional Director, issued the following statement in response to the LovingwayUnitedPentecostalChurch's sign that stated: "Jews killed the Lord Jesus…Settled!":

We are outraged by the outdoor marquee of the LovingwayUnitedPentecostalChurch to post a sign blaming Jews for the death of Jesus. For more than 1,900 years, this accusation has fueled anti-Semitism in the Western world. Now those same words appear on a sign on a busy Denver thoroughfare.......................................

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James proclaimed the same thing in James 5:6 concerning the Jewish Rulers:

Jam 4:2
ye desire, and ye have not; ye murder, and are zealous, and are not able to attain;
ye fight and war, and ye have not, because of your not asking;
Jam 5:6
ye did condemn -- ye did murder the righteous One,
He doth not resist ye.
​

​

There is a big difference between Jewish people in the days following the crucifixion, talking about their spiritual leaders who called for the death of Jesus and persuaded many people to support their demand for His death...and Christians denegrating Jewish people as a whole and calling them 'Christ-Killers'...that is blatant anti-Semitism and should be thoroughly condemned.

You will find in Acts as Peter preaches to the crowds, he touches their conscience with his words about how they put Jesus to death...but he is one of them, he loves them and he desires for them to know Messiah, he is not heaping condemnation on them.

Jesus Himself made it very clear that no one could take His life from Him, but that He chose to lay it down on our behalf, the Just for the unjust, that we might Live.

John 10:
17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

The quote in James 5:6 is not generally thought to be a direct reference the the L-rd Jesus and a better reading of it without high-lighting would be:-

New International Version (©2011)
You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

New Living Translation (©2007)
You have condemned and killed innocent people, who do not resist you.
English Standard Version (©2001)
You have condemned and murdered the righteous person. He does not resist you.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
You have condemned and put to death the righteous man; he does not resist you.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
You have condemned--you have murdered--the righteous man; he does not resist you.
International Standard Version (©2012)
You have condemned and murdered the one who is righteous, even though he did not rebel against you. NET Bible (©2006)
You have condemned and murdered the righteous person, although he does not resist you.






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​

 

[Rhamiel]

Actually it is the very basis for Christian anti-Semitism.

In the UK it is estimated that over 75% of the Christians believe in some form of replacement theology, whether it encompasses the extreme view that the Jews killed G-d, or the milder idea that the Jews are now irrelevant in the plans of G-d.

Many Christians don't really understand much about it and generally go with the flow, but I have found over here these very Churches are targetted by various pro-Palestinian groups that give talks that condemn Israel, depict Zionism as a modern evil and try to garner support for action against the democratic State of Israel...and unfortunately the British are at times very very gullible.

I would not say that the jews killed Jesus is an "extreme view" of Replacement Theology
it is not like it is on a spectrum and one side is this and the other side is that

and what do pro-Palestinian groups have to do with a talk on replacement theology?
Christian churches have often spoken out against injustices
apartheid in south Africa
oppression in the Soviet Union
recently with the tragedy in Bangladesh, many Christian churches are speaking out in favor of workers rights
it makes sense that the Palestinians would try to get help from Christians?

 

[Zeek]

According to Wiki....that term is relatively new.

Semites can also include the Abrahamic religion of Islam, who trace their heritage back to Ishmael in the OT.

Therefore, Christian Zionists can also be anti-Semitic simply because of their hatred of Islam and Muslims.....

Antisemitism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Etymology and usage

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews for reasons connected to their Jewish heritage. A person who holds such positions is called an "antisemite".
While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"),[1] and that has been its normal use since then.[2]


Usage

Despite the use of the prefix anti-, the terms Semitic and anti-Semitic are not directly opposed to each other. Antisemitism refers specifically to prejudice against Jews alone and in general,[2][4] despite the fact that there are other speakers of Semitic languages (e.g. Arabs, Ethiopians, or Assyrians) and that not all Jews speak a Semitic language.
Although the term "antisemitism" did not come into common usage until the 19th century, it is also applied to historic anti-Jewish incidences.
The term anti-Semitic has been used on occasion to include bigotry against other Semitic-language peoples such as Arabs, but such usage is not widely accepted.[5][6]

Although Wilhelm Marr is generally credited with coining the word anti-Semitism (see below), Alex Bein writes that the word was first used in 1860 by the Austrian Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "anti-Semitic prejudices".[12] Steinschneider used this phrase to characterize Ernest Renan's ideas about how "Semitic races" were inferior to "Aryan races."



.

I have had this argument/discussion on many occasions and I have concluded it is just a means of imposing a moral equivalency and side-tracking from the point...it is a well established fact that when one talks of anti-Semitism, one is specifically talking about the Jewish people...to try and incorporate a wider ranging meaning is ingenuous, detracts from the intent and merely fudges the issue.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

[/indent]
There is a big difference between Jewish people in the days following the crucifixion, talking about their spiritual leaders who called for the death of Jesus and persuaded many people to support their demand for His death...and Christians denegrating Jewish people as a whole and calling them 'Christ-Killers'...that is blatant anti-Semitism and should be thoroughly condemned..........*snip*

I believe we are in agreement with that.
Ever study on this covenantle parable Jesus spoke to the Jews in Luke 16?

Would you or others classify this as an "anti-Semitic" commenatary?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS VS THE PHARISEES

Let's start by getting some background information on the situation in which Yeshua told this parable. Luke tells us that all the tax collectors and sinners were coming to the Messiah to hear what he had to say (Luke 15:1).
This made the Pharisees and scribes jealous and they complained, vehemently criticizing Yeshua for receiving sinners and eating with them (Luke 15:2). They were likely envious of his growing fame, afraid that his popularity would diminish their own authority and prestige.





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[motherprayer]

Alright folks, I wasn't trying to get into anti-semitism. Just wanted to know what it is.

Habbak, I asked you a question earlier and I don't believe you addressed it? Can you?

 

[Zeek]

I believe we are in agreement with that.
Ever study on this covenantle parable Jesus spoke to the Jews in Luke 16?

Would you or others classify this as an "anti-Semitic" commenatary?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS VS THE PHARISEES

Let's start by getting some background information on the situation in which Yeshua told this parable. Luke tells us that all the tax collectors and sinners were coming to the Messiah to hear what he had to say (Luke 15:1).
This made the Pharisees and scribes jealous and they complained, vehemently criticizing Yeshua for receiving sinners and eating with them (Luke 15:2). They were likely envious of his growing fame, afraid that his popularity would diminish their own authority and prestige.





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Will have a look tomorrow, and in deference to the OP will not get into further anti-Semitism debate unless someone specifically says something too crass to ignore,...must get some shut-eye

 

[PaladinValer]

Fine but that is your opinion and your interpretation and you are welcome to it. It does not mean that you can insist on telling evengelicals what they believe, why and how.

Well, I would have to disagree based on historic evidence alone.

Holy scripture is sufficient we are not talking about modern day rabbinical faith we are talking about what God said in his word. I don’t ever recall saying that modern day rabbinical teaching, talmud, targums and sages have any jurisdiction.

Since I never implied what you are saying, this is all Straw Men.

Incidentally evangelicals are orthodox; at least by the rules of CF they are, let’s not get into the silly arguments of who is mainstream Christianity.

Evangelicals are Christians according to CF rules; no question. There is also no question that most of them are Nicene. However, while the Nicene Creed defines orthodoxy yes, but there are plenty of unhistoric ways of interpreting it, and I've seen a lot of unorthodoxy posted here in my 10 years of tenure supposedly "supported by" the Creed. Mostly, Nestorianism.