Ancient Astronauts vs. biblical history

Gxg (G²)

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The Bible specifically says that angelic beings exist in the heavens. The Cosmos may indeed be filled with these supernatural beings who enjoy it everyday. In some ways, christians have to acknowledge the existence of aliens.

..in Genesis we learn that man was once very long-lived and intelligent. Noah would have brought with him very advanced engineering skills enabling ancient postdiluvian man to build great ships and other structures. .
Genesis 6 goes with the concept that the angelic got involved to help man out in his progress. Again, the Book of Enoch does a good job of laying things out..

The Book of Watchers was generally accepted by the early Christians, and was quoted by the New Testament book of Jude. Among the Rabbinic Jews, however, it was rejected. The Book of the Watchers is an apocalypse from the third century BC, which describes Enoch’s ascension to heaven and what he saw there. It also describes the “Watchers” (egrigori), the “Sons of God” of Genesis 6:1-4, who are accused of corrupting humankind through their teachings of metalworking, cosmetology, magic, and divination. These Watchers are fallen angels, who are led by Semihazah and Asael, and the book expands on the somewhat cryptic references in Genesis 6:1-4. The later parts of I Enoch, however, have a different emphasis. They concentrate on the sexual sins of the angels, rather than their teaching illicit and corrupting knowledge..as the angels lusted after the daughters of men, and breeding with them to produce a race of giants, the Nephilim. It is unclear whether these all perished in the Flood, but the spirits of those that did perish remained on the earth, and became the demons that plague the human race.

There have been many good debates on that paticular issue, especially as it concerns how the early Jewish Church once accepted Enoch as scripture....with other camps in Christendom (such as the Ethopian Orthodox) still accepting it and having good reason for doing so. For the book is referenced in Jude 1:14 when the author of scripture notes "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones." Many Christians thought that Enoch was quoting Jude until the Dead Sea Scrolls were found. 3 Enoch was not written until later and Jude seems to be quoting from 1 Enoch of which multiple copies were found at Qumran (Dead Sea). The approx .date of Jude was prior to A.D. 68 (as said by the Archaeological Study Bible )....whereas the approx. date for 1st Enoch was 200 B.C, to A.D. 50 (seen in ancient texts for N.T. Studies- Craig Evans ). Thus, there is a small window if Enoch quoted Jude. I think it should be kept in mind that one does not even have to read a person's book in order to still come up with the same idea or words and not be quoting the other person. All truth is God's truth...and many times, an inspired thought one felt was for them alone was already shared spiritually with others.

In addition to using a pseudonym, the first chapter of the book of Enoch also makes use of a famous statement made by the real Enoch who lived millennia before the oldest known copies of the book of Enoch came into existence. A similar (albeit not exact) quotation of Enoch exists in the New Testament book of Jude in verses 14-15. I agree with others who have no doubt that the real Enoch of Genesis 5 spoke these words and that they had been passed on by tradition from his time. However, the commonality of Jude 14-15 with 1 Enoch 1:9 does not make the rest of the pseudepigraphical book of Enoch "God-inspired" any more than Paul's brief quotations of Aratus (Acts 17:28: "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring" ) and Epimenides (Titus 1:12: One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies") would sanctify the entirety of those authors' words.

The same dynamic of older Jewish apocryphal books being utilized is seen in Jude 1:9 with the story of Michael the Archangel wrestling with the Devil over the body of Moses. That story was something that one of the early church fathers (Origen ) mentioned in a book, called "the Assumption of Moses," (Αναληψις του Μωσεως Analēpsis tou Mōseōs,) as extant in his time, containing this very account of the contest between Michael and the devil about the body of Moses. That was a Jewish Greek book, and Origen supposed that this was the source of the account here. That book is now lost, sadly..but there is still extant a book in Hebrew, called פטירת משׁה paTiyret Mosheh - "the Death of Moses," which some have supposed to be the book referred to by Origen. Many scholars, based on the writings of Clement, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin, and Didymus (Guthrie, 1962, p. 918; Earle, Blaney, and Hanson, 1955, p. 411), assume that Jude 9 is a reference to The Assumption of Moses. The fragment now known as The Assumption of Moses presents the account of Moses’ appointing of Joshua as his successor, and a description of the future of Israel during the conquest of the Promised Land.

According to Richard Lenksi, scholars believe that the missing portion of The Assumption included “an elaboration” of Deuteronomy 34:5, the biblical account of Moses’ death, showing how God used angels to bury Moses (1966, pp. 601-602). It is thought that The Assumption of Moses, at this point, used Zechariah 3:1-2 as its basis for the use of the phrase “The Lord rebuke you!” It has not been proven, however, that Jude intended to quote from The Assumption of Moses...but there's a significant possibility that it was intentional. If Jude intended to reference it, it cannot be determined 100% that Jude actually quoted the apocryphal book, because the material Jude allegedly quoted does not exist. If The Assumption of Moses did indeed contain material about Moses’ burial, then Jude independently wrote the same thing that the writer of The Assumption wrote. Thus, Jude confirmed that this particular portion of The Assumption is historical. That is very different from stating that any portion of The Assumption was inspired.

It may be that Jude simply intended to reference an oral tradition (which was true) that became the basis for The Assumption. Again, that book contains many fabulous stories about the death of Moses ....and the reference here, as well as that in Jde 1:14, to the prophecy of Enoch, is rightly considered to be derived from some apocryphal books existing in the time of Jude. For more on the issue, one can go online/investigate the following:


With the Book of Enoch, something else that has stood out to people is how the story of Genesis 6/rebellion of the sons of God lines up with the theme in Enoch when it comes to discussing the ways the angels rebelled against the Lord/corrupted mankind in epic ways. As Hershel Shanks ( founder of the Biblical Archaeology Society and the editor of the Biblical Archaeology Review ) revealed in his book on the Dead Sea Scrolls, these books were held in high esteem at the time the New Testament was written:
Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls the apocryphal book of Enoch (more precisely, I Enoch) was known only in an Ethiopic translation. Now as many as twenty fragmentary copies of the Aramaic original have been found at Qumran, which suggests that Enoch and perhaps other books now considered apocryphal were regarded as authoritative Scripture at least by some groups. Allusions to Enoch occur at least fourteen times in the New Testament; the New Testament Letter of Jude quotes from Enoch as having the authority of inspired Scripture (Jude 14-15). In some copies of the Ethiopic Bible Enoch is included in the canon. Jubilees, the so-called Rewritten Bible, was apparently considered authoritative at Qumran: At least fifteen copies of this book have been identified, an immediate indication of the importance the Qumran sectarians attached to it. To this day, it is considered canonical by the Abyssinian Church in Ethiopia. (pp. 160-161, The Mystery and Meaning of the Dead Sea Scrolls)
From 1 Enoch, we learn more about the sin of the Watchers (Dan. 4:17), angels charged with watching over mankind...and the ways they were bound up:
ENOCH 6:1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' (The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, R.H. Charles)
ENOCH 10:11 . . . And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves 12 with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is 13 for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and 14 to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. . . .' (The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, R.H. Charles)

The book claims that the "sons of God" mentioned in Genesis 6:2 were fallen angels, something that many Christians believe today. It also teaches that they produced a race of beings that were half angelic and half humans called the Nephilim. And when they were destroyed by the flood, they remained on the earth as demons. For a portion of the book of Enoch:
But now the giants who are born from the [union of] the spirits and the flesh shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, because their dwelling shall be upon the earth and inside the earth. Evil spirits have come out of their bodies. Because from the day that they were created from the sons of God they became Watchers: their first origin is the spiritual foundation. They will become evil upon the earth and shall be called evil spirits. The dwelling of the spiritual beings of heaven is heaven; but the dwelling of the spirits of the earth, which are born upon the earth, is in the earth. (1 Enoch 15:8-10)
It is clear from the book of Enoch that evil spirits are the giants who were born from the union of spirits and flesh. This passage sounds like it came from Greek mythology. But this should not surprise us because another name for evil spirits is demon, and the word "demon" comes from Greek mythology. E.W. Vines will confirm this. He writes concerning the Greek word daimon, which is translated demon in the New Testament as being derived "among pagan Greeks, an inferior deity..." [Vines, Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words]. This word was used by the Greeks to describe their mythological gods, like Zeus and Hermes. Do you remember that’s what the people of Lystra thought Paul and Barnabus were (Acts 14:12)? The Greeks worshipped many gods and most believed their gods were superhuman beings. Essentially, they believed that these gods came down to earth and intermingled with humans, thus were born their heroes. ....and I believe alongside others that this mythology is rooted in a real, dramatic event in the past, with this event, after centuries, being clouded in mystery while the Bible shares in detail what occurred according to Genesis 6....just as it is the case that in multiple cultures a global flood account is found and others have noted that they were all memories of the dramatic event that Genesis 6 records with the Flood.

Many Christians would agree with the concept of the sons of God in Genesis being fallen angels, although it's understandable when they question the conclusion about demons being the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim, even though the book of Enoch specifically declares this. They may disagree by saying, "You can't prove anything by the book of Enoch. You must prove it by the Bible." he same time, skeptics must understand that the book of Enoch was highly regarded by the Jews in Jesus’ day and by the apostles. The Apostle Jude, in fact, quotes from it, as seen plainly in Jude 1:14-15. How did Jude know what Enoch prophesied? After all, the Bible never mentions one word that Enoch spoke. The only reference to Enoch in the Old Testament is in Genesis 5:18-24. Read it and you’ll find no reference to this prophecy which Jude mentions. The Bible just mentions the fact that Enoch walked with God and was no more, because God took him away. Nothing is mentioned about his prophesying.

So again, how did Jude know that Enoch had prophesied these words? He knew it because the book of Enoch mentions it. The book of Enoch was widely known during the days of the Apostles, and they freely quoted from it thus giving the book credibility on certain levels. in Jude 1:14, where I Enoch 1:9 is referenced, it is possible that through God's providence some pseudepigrapha have preserved some genuine traditions and that Jude was able to discern the true from the false....

It's hard not to take serious notice of how 1 Enoch and Jubilees agree with the Scriptures such as Jude 1:6 and II Peter 2:4 which show that a portion of the fallen angels are currently restrained in a spiritual prison called "the Abyss" (Luke 8:31):

And the angelic/supernatural side can help to explain the mythology given for other cultures worshipping these "gods/goddesses" that helped them with certain things others felt were impossible.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I have a feeling, though, you missed the main issue of the thread. The issue is not whether alien creations exist. The Bible specifically says that angelic beings exist in the heavens. The Cosmos may indeed be filled with these supernatural beings who enjoy it everyday. In some ways, christians have to acknowledge the existence of aliens.

But ancient astronaut theorists point to aliens to explain the advanced technology ancient man seems to have possessed. .
So long as those things deemed to be "aliens" are seen in their proper context - that of angelic beings getting involved with mankind at various points - some things don't seem to be an issue.

I've always been fascinated with the way the TORAH often describes things within the Heavenly/Angelic realms....and when it comes to the Torah/seeing the dynamics of it, I'm amazed at how often it seems that many divorce what is discussed in the scientific realm from it as if they have no connections. To me, it has always been amazing to see how “sci-fi” the angelic realm can seem at times----especially when seeing the many descriptions of angels. Some to consider, starting with Daniel 10:5-6
•Isaiah 6:2
•Ezekiel 1:4-14

•Ezekiel 10:20-21
•Revelation 10:1
•2 Kings 2:11
•Revelation 4:8a
•2 Kings 6:17
When reading the Word, it has many of the descriptions of many angels is reminiscent of some of the critters that the science-fiction genre comes up with….as it relates to how they were described in the Word of God & how often their prescence alone was enough to inspire awe in men/to the point of worshipping them—from having wheels (As in Ezekiel, Ezekiel 1:19-21, Ezekiel 3:12-14 , Ezekiel 10:18-20 , Ezekiel 11:21-23, etc) to having jewels all over their bodies (as in Daniel 9-10, Daniel 10:1 )…..from the seraphs with SIX wings in Isaiah 6:2/Isaiah 6:1-3to the creature in Revelation with MULTIPLE EYES ( Revelation 4:7-9 & 4 Revelation 5:5-7 ) .......Or the Angel of Death that punished David/Jerusalem (1 Chronicles 21:15-17/ 1 Chronicles 21 ) and MANY others too numerous to place here in this thread.


There's also the issue of how when angels appeared to humans in the Bible, they sometimes resembled normal males. Genesis 18 deals with both the appearance of two angels and a Theophony (a manifestation of God in the Bible that is tangible to the human senses angels....actually a Christophany - a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ).

These beings, though spiritual in essence, appeared as physical beings - they even shared a meal with Abraham. In Genesis 19, the two angels leave Abraham and go down to visit Lot in Sodom.

While there, they ate a meal with Lot and his family. Afterwards, the blatantly homosexual men of the city demanded that Abraham hand his visitors over to them for their sexual pleasure ..whom they apparently perceived to be mere men....but the angels rescued Lot and blinded the men. They then told Lot to leave because they were going to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Thus this and other Biblical stories indicate that angels are powerful beings who can interact with our physical world.


At other times, as said before, angels appear very other-worldly, even terrifying those who encountered them.

All of that's to say that the Bible does indicate that angels sometimes appear as "flesh and blood" creatures - and they may even appear to us a human. Thus we find in Hebrews 13:1-2 (NIV), "Keep on loving each other as brothers. Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it."

When considering many of their descriptions in scripture--and seeing many of the accounts of scientific phenomena with alien lifeforms--I cannot help but wonder if there's a link that's worth following for believers so that the dots can be connected.

When reading the Word/Torah, it didn't really seem as if should have any problem with the the view of aliens being real—-as I often tend to come at it from the aspect of Angels/Demons and other heavenly creatures being the ones that qualify for the job since they’re indeed another species altogether with many amazing features (especially when reading how scripture shows them in the spiritual realm and the natural).

Some things that came to my mind were things like the Genesis 6/Genesis 6:3 account with “The Sons of God”, who came down to mate with the daughters of men they deemed lovely---and from there, creating the group of beings known as the Nephilim---and later resulting in many of the stories concerning “men of renown/heros of old” (in regards to legends/mythology).


Genesis 6: 1
When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
. . .
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.


Indeed, many throughout the history of the church have always been troubled by the text and whether or not it could possibly refer to angels. Some have had serious issue with believing such, though it has been amazing to me to see how many Jewish believers have felt on the matter throughout the church's development.

Most in the early church, as far as I'm aware of, were never against the notion that angels were described in the Torah as being able to take physical form at one point---with the fallen ones being those who tried to mate with humans/caused the Judgement of the Flood.....similar to many accounts of alien abductions/experiments on men that were terrifying.

The Book of Enoch---also referenced in the Book of Jude at one point--is also something that gives much credence to the view....and if the sons of God refers to angels, or in this case fallen angels which somehow have produced off-spring with human females, these heroes of old might lend credence that these Nephilim were like gods and might be the source of the stories regarding Apollo and the like...beings helping to build/construct things and rulling early man. More was discussed on that in threads such as Messianic Mermaid: Of those not fully "human", could they worship Messiah? and here ( #86 and #64 ) - and as it concerns other aspects with the alien dynamic, Examining the film "Contact" & wondering what you feel Science/Faith plays in life?.

Michael Heisner - who as been against the "Ancient Astronaut" concept - has also shared on the issue with the Fallen Angels getting involved in early mankind/corrupting them.


 
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Gxg (G²)

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I think it makes sense to consider that our distant forefathers were at least, if not more, intelligent than us. They were closer to God's design. I think of the astounding mental feats that occasionally show up in people: photographic memory, perfect pitch, or the ability to do high-speed mathematics. These abilities were engineered by God. Did Adam express them all? Were they once more common than now?

I think early man had all of the abilities you noted - and on top of that, access to other physical abilities that were long lost.
 
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Gxg (G²);62905781 said:
Michael Heiser has done some really good work on the issue, as he made a book that was a story essentially meant to be a social critique of the future based on what has happened in the past. The book is entitled The Facade.
I'm a fan, and read his blogs.

Guys, the Paleobabble blog I linked to earlier in this thread is one of Dr. Heiser's efforts.
 
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Calminian

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Gxg (G²);62905781 said:
Although intelligence is something I think early man had in multiple ways and at a higher level - with us starting to catch up in our time with some of the things they did - I do think that the "alien" aspect can make sense when considering the Angelic and that any type of "alien" intervention was a matter of supernatural beings trying to mess around in the affairs of men - and messing mankind up in the process.

Michael Heiser has done some really good work on the issue, as he made a book that was a story essentially meant to be a social critique of the future based on what has happened in the past. The book is entitled The Facade.

Thanks, Gxg (G²), for the comments and complementary graphics you normally provide with every post. :)

Yeah, I think christians may often overlook the angelic aspect to things. I am of the opinion that angels are likely a lot different than traditional theology portrays them. They have a physical aspect to them, and I think they actually enjoy the cosmos that God created, in fact I think it may have been primarily created for them. John described their number as uncountable and a vast cosmos (the heavens) would seem to accommodate them well.

I think fallen angels are likely behind many ancient religions and mythologies. Are they behind some ancient technologies as well? Possibly, though I think God tightened their leash quite a bit after the flood.
 
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Rachel Rachel

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Gxg (G²);62905905 said:
So long as those things deemed to be "aliens" are seen in their proper context - that of angelic beings getting involved with mankind at various points - some things don't seem to be an issue.

I've always been fascinated with the way the TORAH often describes things within the Heavenly/Angelic realms....and when it comes to the Torah/seeing the dynamics of it, I'm amazed at how often it seems that many divorce what is discussed in the scientific realm from it as if they have no connections. To me, it has always been amazing to see how “sci-fi” the angelic realm can seem at times----especially when seeing the many descriptions of angels. Some to consider, starting with Daniel 10:5-6
•Isaiah 6:2
•Ezekiel 1:4-14

•Ezekiel 10:20-21
•Revelation 10:1
•2 Kings 2:11
•Revelation 4:8a
•2 Kings 6:17
When reading the Word, it has many of the descriptions of many angels is reminiscent of some of the critters that the science-fiction genre comes up with….as it relates to how they were described in the Word of God & how often their prescence alone was enough to inspire awe in men/to the point of worshipping them—from having wheels (As in Ezekiel, Ezekiel 1:19-21, Ezekiel 3:12-14 , Ezekiel 10:18-20 , Ezekiel 11:21-23, etc) to having jewels all over their bodies (as in Daniel 9-10, Daniel 10:1 )…..from the seraphs with SIX wings in Isaiah 6:2/Isaiah 6:1-3to the creature in Revelation with MULTIPLE EYES ( Revelation 4:7-9 & 4 Revelation 5:5-7 ) .......Or the Angel of Death that punished David/Jerusalem (1 Chronicles 21:15-17/ 1 Chronicles 21 ) and MANY others too numerous to place here in this thread.


There's also the issue of how when angels appeared to humans in the Bible, they sometimes resembled normal males. Genesis 18 deals with both the appearance of two angels and a Theophony (a manifestation of God in the Bible that is tangible to the human senses angels....actually a Christophany - a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ).

These beings, though spiritual in essence, appeared as physical beings - they even shared a meal with Abraham. In Genesis 19, the two angels leave Abraham and go down to visit Lot in Sodom.

While there, they ate a meal with Lot and his family. Afterwards, the blatantly homosexual men of the city demanded that Abraham hand his visitors over to them for their sexual pleasure ..whom they apparently perceived to be mere men....but the angels rescued Lot and blinded the men. They then told Lot to leave because they were going to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Thus this and other Biblical stories indicate that angels are powerful beings who can interact with our physical world.


At other times, as said before, angels appear very other-worldly, even terrifying those who encountered them.

All of that's to say that the Bible does indicate that angels sometimes appear as "flesh and blood" creatures - and they may even appear to us a human. Thus we find in Hebrews 13:1-2 (NIV), "Keep on loving each other as brothers. Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it."

When considering many of their descriptions in scripture--and seeing many of the accounts of scientific phenomena with alien lifeforms--I cannot help but wonder if there's a link that's worth following for believers so that the dots can be connected.

When reading the Word/Torah, it didn't really seem as if should have any problem with the the view of aliens being real—-as I often tend to come at it from the aspect of Angels/Demons and other heavenly creatures being the ones that qualify for the job since they’re indeed another species altogether with many amazing features (especially when reading how scripture shows them in the spiritual realm and the natural).

Some things that came to my mind were things like the Genesis 6/Genesis 6:3 account with “The Sons of God”, who came down to mate with the daughters of men they deemed lovely---and from there, creating the group of beings known as the Nephilim---and later resulting in many of the stories concerning “men of renown/heros of old” (in regards to legends/mythology).


Genesis 6: 1
When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
. . .
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.


Indeed, many throughout the history of the church have always been troubled by the text and whether or not it could possibly refer to angels. Some have had serious issue with believing such, though it has been amazing to me to see how many Jewish believers have felt on the matter throughout the church's development.

Most in the early church, as far as I'm aware of, were never against the notion that angels were described in the Torah as being able to take physical form at one point---with the fallen ones being those who tried to mate with humans/caused the Judgement of the Flood.....similar to many accounts of alien abductions/experiments on men that were terrifying.

The Book of Enoch---also referenced in the Book of Jude at one point--is also something that gives much credence to the view....and if the sons of God refers to angels, or in this case fallen angels which somehow have produced off-spring with human females, these heroes of old might lend credence that these Nephilim were like gods and might be the source of the stories regarding Apollo and the like...beings helping to build/construct things and rulling early man. More was discussed on that in threads such as- and as it concerns other aspects with the alien dynamic,

Michael Heisner - who as been against the "Ancient Astronaut" concept - has also shared on the issue with the Fallen Angels getting involved in early mankind/corrupting them.

Hello Gabriel.
This may be somewhat off topic but this conversation made me think of something my daughter and I were discussing during out Bible reading last week.

Someone had asked if others believed "aliens" could be saved/converted (if such beings exist.) She said yes, and I said I wasn't so sure. Then we read -

Ephesians 3:
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship[a] of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

and

Mark 13:27:
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


Maybe...just maybe we will evangelize aliens??
 
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Calminian

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Hello Gabriel.
This may be somewhat off topic but this conversation made me think of something my daughter and I were discussing during out Bible reading last week.

Someone had asked if others believed "aliens" could be saved/converted (if such beings exist.) She said yes, and I said I wasn't so sure. Then we read -

Ephesians 3:
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship[a] of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

and

Mark 13:27:
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


Maybe...just maybe we will evangelize aliens??


That may be a little off-topic, but no problem if you just touch on it briefly. If it becomes a multi-post topic, maybe it would be best to start a new thread.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Thanks, Gxg (G²), for the comments and complementary graphics you normally provide with every post. :)

Yeah, I think christians may often overlook the angelic aspect to things. I am of the opinion that angels are likely a lot different than traditional theology portrays them. .
Not certain as to what you mean by "traditional theology" - unless you mean the way they are portrayed like cupids and playing harps :)^_^

But indeed, many believers overlook the angelic aspect and it doesn't seem necessary.
They have a physical aspect to them, and I think they actually enjoy the cosmos that God created, in fact I think it may have been primarily created for them. John described their number as uncountable and a vast cosmos (the heavens) would seem to accommodate them well.
Agreed - although I think we were made for the cosmos as well and are in the process of glorification on the matter..


A process that got short-changed and interrupted at the Fall. And even the angels got jealous of what the Lord intended to do with mankind itself..
I think fallen angels are likely behind many ancient religions and mythologies. Are they behind some ancient technologies as well? Possibly, though I think God tightened their leash quite a bit after the flood
They were out of control a good bit - but the reality is that those with knowledge (as they are ETERNAL) are still present in the world today - aware of what happened in the Flood and still spreading lies. It makes sense that spirits were still able to influence man - for even after the Flood, it wasn't too long after that Nimrod arose to conquer the world and Babel was built as seen in Genesis 10-11. There was an excellent book on the issue that went into-depth with it...entitled "Intoxicated By Babylon" ( more here and here )
 
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This may be somewhat off topic but this conversation made me think of something my daughter and I were discussing during out Bible reading last week.

Someone had asked if others believed "aliens" could be saved/converted (if such beings exist.) She said yes, and I said I wasn't so sure. Then we read -

Ephesians 3:
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship[a] of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

and

Mark 13:27:
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Maybe...just maybe we will evangelize aliens??


Wouldn't be surprised if we end up reaching out to other creations in the future (and that's a view I've long pondered myself) - although in regards to the OP, I think the reasons why so much focus is on "ancient astronauts"/aliens being the ones who created man (such as films like "Prometheus" or "Knowing" and so many others express)....well, the reason seems to be in line with deception. The forces of the enemy trying to get people so focused on one aspect of life which may be true (i.e. alien life existing) so that he can distract others from the ultimate focus of what's true (i.e. the GOSPEL of Christ/His salvation and His redeemption of the world) - and in the event anything goes down in the future with plans to evangelize the cosmos, the goal of the enemy is to get man thinking that those creations out there which may exist are in fact THE SOURCE of our being/the reasons behind why we exist.....and thus, we end up worshipping the creation rather than the Creator.

Glad you dropped in, sis :)
 
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Men are seeing the problem with the evolutionary model of origins, and looking for something to explain how cavemen were able to build the pyramids and other ancient structures.
On the issue of pyramids, I think there is something to be said on how ancient man often did things technologically that we'd be amazed by - but couldn't see because of things lost in history. With man's genius, some have posited that the pyramids were a form of energy grids:


 
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Gxg (G²);62910004 said:
Not certain as to what you mean by "traditional theology" - unless you mean the way they are portrayed like cupids and playing harps :)^_^...

More like the concept that they are incorporeal, and must therefore dwell in an incorporeal realm. Seems we have stripped them of their physicality, and they ability to dwell in the physical realm.
 
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More like the concept that they are incorporeal, and must therefore dwell in an incorporeal realm. Seems we have stripped them of their physicality, and they ability to dwell in the physical realm.
I agree. Angels in the OT can be earthy beings, eating, drinking, talking, walking, touching. And in their natural state I don't think they're "less real" than us, but "more real".

I once read a book by Paul Yonggi Cho called "The Fourth Dimension", where he taught that the spiritual realm was a kind of extra dimension. I find myself agreeing with that idea. Many of the miracles in the Bible become intrinsically possible, for example, if existence includes a fourth spatial dimension: internal healings, floating axe heads, always-full jars of oil, loaves and fishes appearing out of thin air, etc. Since God is also outside of time I think the true picture is bigger than that, but I think it's a start.

This has already been explored in secular fiction. A humorous story called "Flatland" explores the relationships between 2D and 3D societies, and a more recent SF story called "Spaceland" explores the relationships between our society and a hypothetical 4D one.

More on topic, there is Jewish literature that says angels helped antediluvian men jump-start their knowledge of the natural world. If that's true, then we did have help getting started. But those non-human teachers might be better described as extra-dimensional instead of extra-terrestrial.

My thoughts, anyway.
 
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More like the concept that they are incorporeal, and must therefore dwell in an incorporeal realm. Seems we have stripped them of their physicality, and they ability to dwell in the physical realm.

I like how Michael Heisner described it when saying that they're transdimensional beings - meaning that their physicality in this realm is simply their ability to live in one dimension. It's similar to how Christ was able to teleport and pass/phase through walls when he was in his resurrected body ( John 20:18-20 /Luke 24:35-37 ) and other features. I think the angels are just as subject to rules/limitations when not living in this realm we're in as humans - as having a differing type of body/capabilities doesn't mean they cannot be hurt or don't have limitations. It is like having an explosion happening in our realm that happened because of something occurring in the spiritual due to a fight - or having demons phase through the buildings we walk past all the time whenever battles between angels go on and they get knocked.

Books like "Piercing the Darkness" and "This Present Darkness" by Frank Peritti shared a lot on those perspectives whenever the angels would be fighting the fallen ones and having some intense fights - yet others in our realm were only aware of it due to feeling the sensations or aware of the battles happening.

That said, yes, I do think angels can be quite physical and the way they appeared in the scriptures lends to that.
 
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More like the concept that they are incorporeal, and must therefore dwell in an incorporeal realm. Seems we have stripped them of their physicality, and they ability to dwell in the physical realm.
Personally, I don't think Spirit beings (be it angels or demons) are out there without forms of some type. When looking at the descriptions of them, they range from having body shapes/types that seem humanoid to other types that are truly sci-fi....and yet, they're all still considered to be angelic beings.

As shared elsewhere on the issue of life in heavenlies, when examining Angelology ( The Doctrine of Angels ) , it is very fascinating to consider how varied the angelic world is. One Messianic Jewish teacher, known as Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum , did an excellent study on the matter in one of his articles entitled THE DOCTRINE OF THE ELECT ANGELS - Ariel Ministries. Cherubim were but one class of angels, alongside the Seraphim who circled around the Lord ( Isaiah 6:1-3 / Isaiah 6 ). And then, of course, there are Archangels ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 , Jude 1:8-10 ).and then there are also the four living creatures covered in eyes ( Revelation 4:5-7 / Revelation 4 ), also described within the scriptures.


The heavenlines themselves are full of such creatures:
G
Ezekiel 1:10
I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north—an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5 and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was human, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had human hands. All four of them had faces and wings, 9 and the wings of one touched the wings of another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.

Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a human being, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle.
Ezekiel 1:9-11 Ezekiel 1



Ezekiel 10:14
Each of the cherubim had four faces: One face was that of a cherub, the second the face of a human being, the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
Ezekiel 10:13-15 /Ezekiel 10




Revelation 4:6-8 / Revelation 4
6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal. In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’[a] who was, and is, and is to come.”



Many others besides that...and all of that is in addition to the horses of fire described twice in the scriptures ( 2 Kings 2:10-12 2 Kings 2 , 2 Kings 6:16-18/2 Kings 6 ). It's already the case that within scripture, there seems to be the supernatural reality of animals in the Heavenlies. The book of Kings notes where the armies of Heaven ride upon chariots of fire, with horses of fire as well.
g
2 Kings 2:11
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
2 Kings 2:10-12 2 Kings 2


2 Kings 6:16-18/2 Kings 6
16 “Don’t be afraid,” the prophet answered. “Those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” 17 And Elisha prayed, “Open his eyes, LORD, so that he may see.” Then the LORD opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. 18 As the enemy came down toward him, Elisha prayed to the LORD, “Strike this army with blindness.” So he struck them with blindness, as Elisha had asked.



Moreover, in the book of Revelation, there seems to be many pictures/images of animals in the spiritual...such as the horses ridden upon by certain spirits (the white horse/its rider from Revelation 6:1-3 ). And even Christ will return PHYSICALLY and SPIRITUALLY from the heavens...riding on an animal of epic proportions:
Revelation 19:11
[ The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast ] I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

Revelation 19:10-12

What seems to be present in the heavenlies is pretty wild to consider:)

Thus, even though Yeshua and the Angels are different in composition in the heavenlies, I don't think that means they are without form of some type/designs.

More shared in the thread entitled PHOENIX: Seeing if Job 29:18 /Bible shows Fiery Mythological Bird as Fact or Fiction
 
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I agree. Angels in the OT can be earthy beings, eating, drinking, talking, walking, touching. And in their natural state I don't think they're "less real" than us, but "more real".

I once read a book by Paul Yonggi Cho called "The Fourth Dimension", where he taught that the spiritual realm was a kind of extra dimension. I find myself agreeing with that idea. Many of the miracles in the Bible become intrinsically possible, for example, if existence includes a fourth spatial dimension: internal healings, floating axe heads, always-full jars of oil, loaves and fishes appearing out of thin air, etc. Since God is also outside of time I think the true picture is bigger than that, but I think it's a start.

This has already been explored in secular fiction. A humorous story called "Flatland" explores the relationships between 2D and 3D societies, and a more recent SF story called "Spaceland" explores the relationships between our society and a hypothetical 4D one.

.
If you've ever read C.S Lewiss' work "The Great Divorce". he gives some good details on the ways that Heaven is MORE real than the reality we live in. In this book, the "ghosts" he describes are people who have come up to Heaven from Hell/Hades and are so near to "nothing" compared to the Heavenly citizens that they are seen as ghosts. Lewis's point is that Heaven is the most "real", solid, substantial place in creation, while all else is just a pale nothing. When the people first get off the bus that takes them there, they can't even walk on the grass because the grass is so solid, so much more "real" that it hurts them. And those who stay gradually become more solid themselves.

Transdimensional thinking (as well as understanding that our physical universe has serious limits and will end at some point while the realm of the Lord is WITHOUT limitation and awesome:D) ...that can help in processing how things occur.

Good thoughts you shared, by the way:)
 
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More on topic, there is Jewish literature that says angels helped antediluvian men jump-start their knowledge of the natural world. If that's true, then we did have help getting started. But those non-human teachers might be better described as extra-dimensional instead of extra-terrestrial.

My thoughts, anyway.

One view I've heard of is that the angels got involved in hindering the development of man because men - unlike angels - were created in the Image of God...with the ability to actually CREATE as He did in differing ways...and as they were to have dominion over the physical realm, the angels would be limited in their dominance. And so the only way to rule would be to influence early man to do things to either harm himself or live in ways that gave angels access (based on the concept of free will). Man could've made something like an axe to chop down trees or do other things - but a fallen angel taught man on the issue of violence/encouraged them to make weapons of war with it - with man's creativity being used in the negative sense...


Man's potential was something the Fallen angels were fearful of and have always wanted to steer in the way of their benefit - as men will judge angels ...and have the blessing of a physical experience angels never really had..and it is because of that reason you see so much perversity being done by the angels in antiquity whenever you hear stories on them messing with man/sleeping with women. If they are extra-dimensional beings, there's the reality that they'd be able to help man become such as well by messing with them/mixing - something the Lord was not having at all. And so, he had to restrain them.
 
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....But those non-human teachers might be better described as extra-dimensional instead of extra-terrestrial.

This is a bit of a rabbit trail, but I would challenge the notion or need of thinking of them as extra-dimensional (of course depending on the meaning poured into the term). I'm finding myself at odds with most of the books out there on angels.

But I would suggest they actually dwell in this dimension, in the physical realm of the heavens (the cosmos) and the earth (our planet). They merely have the ability to be invisible to us. Since the cosmos is for the most part vastly empty, why wouldn't this be a good realm for angels (especially if they don't require an atmosphere as we do).

Genesis describes the heavens as an expanse containing clouds, luminaries, etc. And thanks to Hubble we now know it's a very glorious majestic place fit for angelic beings. What would be the need for another realm?

Plus, if angels don't dwell in the cosmos, isn't that a big waste of space?! (understatement)

Furthermore, when is heaven ever described in the Bible in extra-dimensional terms? When Jesus went to heaven after his resurrection, did he dematerialize before the eyes of his disciples? Or did he float up into the physical sky? When he went out of sight, did he keep going into space, or did he then dematerialize?

Just some thoughts.
 
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This is a bit of a rabbit trail, but I would challenge the notion or need of thinking of them as extra-dimensional (of course depending on the meaning poured into the term). I'm finding myself at odds with most of the books out there on angels.

But I would suggest they actually dwell in this dimension, in the physical realm of the heavens (the cosmos) and the earth (our planet). They merely have the ability to be invisible to us. Since the cosmos is for the most part vastly empty, why wouldn't this be a good realm for angels (especially if they don't require an atmosphere as we do).

Genesis describes the heavens as an expanse containing clouds, luminaries, etc. And thanks to Hubble we now know it's a very glorious majestic place fit for angelic beings. What would be the need for another realm?

Plus, if angels don't dwell in the cosmos, isn't that a big waste of space?! (understatement)

Furthermore, when is heaven ever described in the Bible in extra-dimensional terms? When Jesus went to heaven after his resurrection, did he dematerialize before the eyes of his disciples? Or did he float up into the physical sky? When he went out of sight, did he keep going into space, or did he then dematerialize?

Just some thoughts.
I have to say that has never occurred to me. Thanks for your thoughts.
 
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